Searching for GOD...

[Alan Burns]

So you're supernatural are you: don't be so daft, Alan.

Well, I see no evidence for the existence of free thought in the natural world outside the human mind.

[Alan Burns]

This has been covered before.  We have a word to describe events that are not causally related to prior events.  The word is 'random'.  it is not 'supernatural'.

But my freedom to control my own thoughts, words and actions is certainly not random

[Alan Burns]

A natural explanation is that brains have the capacity to think (and all that thinking entails)

That is just speculation.  There is no physical definition for what defines a conscious thought.

[torridon]

Well, I see no evidence for the existence of free thought in the natural world outside the human mind.

We could say we are 'free' in our own minds, free to think what we please.  But that is 'free' in a superficial sense in that no one is controlling our thoughts, that is our private domain, no one can tell us what to think.  But in a profound sense, 'free' has no meaning.  Thoughts arise and form out of lower levels of mind controlled by subliminal processes of consciousness.  'Free' makes no sense here.

[Shaker]

That is just speculation.

Irony meltdown.

[Alan Burns]

It’s just after dawn, the mist is clearing with the promise of a lovely day to come and our two Viking characters are engaged in conversation…  ....
 

Good to see you exercising your considerable gift to consciously control your thoughts and come up with an intellectual and imaginative response - well done!

[Gordon]

That is just speculation.  There is no physical definition for what defines a conscious thought.

I see you're back to hiding behind 'definitions' again: thought seems to be nothing more than neurological activity, and neurological activity can be measured allowing thought to be defined as neurological activity.

All you need to to counter this, Alan, is demonstrate thinking in the absence of neurological activity. 

[Sebastian Toe]

Good to see you exercising your considerable gift to consciously control your thoughts and come up with an intellectual and imaginative response - well done!

Good to see you exercising your entirely natural biological brain to consciously control your thoughts and come up with your usual mantra, it's almost as if you were a robot, well done!

[Alan Burns]

We could say we are 'free' in our own minds, free to think what we please.  But that is 'free' in a superficial sense in that no one is controlling our thoughts, that is our private domain, no one can tell us what to think.  But in a profound sense, 'free' has no meaning.  Thoughts arise and form out of lower levels of mind controlled by subliminal processes of consciousness.  'Free' makes no sense here.

Of course, freedom can't exist in a materially deterministic world, which is why I have to conclude that my obvious freedom to control my own thoughts words and actions (and posts!) comes from a non material source.

[bluehillside Retd.]

AB,

Good to see you exercising your considerable gift to consciously control your thoughts and come up with an intellectual and imaginative response - well done!

Thank you Eric.

[Alan Burns]

I see you're back to hiding behind 'definitions' again: thought seems to be nothing more than neurological activity, and neurological activity can be measured allowing thought can be defined as neurological activity.

All you need to to counter this, Alan, is demonstrate thinking in the absence of neurological activity.

Neurological brain activity is certainly associated with conscious thought, but as has been pointed out before, correlation alone does not imply causation.  Neurological activity indicates the presence of electro chemical processes - nothing more can be assumed.

If we disable the physical brain, we will be losing our means of communication and interaction with this physical world.  Whatever constitutes our self awareness will no longer be able to perceive the content of our brain cells, or interact with them.

[torridon]

Of course, freedom can't exist in a materially deterministic world, which is why I have to conclude that my obvious freedom to control my own thoughts words and actions (and posts!) comes from a non material source.

hah, just as I suspected, back to your old tricks again, lobbing in 'materially' (etc) as if that makes some difference to logic. I'm sure Stranger must have explained this at least 4367 times - adding in such adjectives makes no difference to the logic of the situation. Two plus two will always equal four irrespective of whether you add them up quickly, or slowly, or hungrily, or irreverently or spiritually or materially.  It makes no difference.  However you cut and slice it, random means not deterministic and deterministic means not random. Get over it, these are the meanings of the words.

[Gordon]

Neurological brain activity is certainly associated with conscious thought, but as has been pointed out before, correlation alone does not imply causation.  Neurological activity indicates the presence of electro chemical processes - nothing more can be assumed.

It does when there is a one-to-one correspondence between neurological thinking and functioning brains: all you need do now is demonstrate neurological thinking in the absence of a functioning brain. You can't, and if you were honest you'd admit you can't.

If we disable the physical brain, we will be losing our means of communication and interaction with this physical world.  Whatever constitutes our self awareness will no longer be able to perceive the content of our brain cells, or interact with them.

So dead people don't think: tell us something we don't already know.

[torridon]

Neurological brain activity is certainly associated with conscious thought, but as has been pointed out before, correlation alone does not imply causation.  Neurological activity indicates the presence of electro chemical processes - nothing more can be assumed....

and likewise, we cannot assume that my headache has gone because I took a painkiller, perhaps it is just correlation.  Maybe the current warming of Planet Earth just happens to be coincident with the observation that atmospheric carbon levels are higher now than at any time in the last 5 million years, nothing more can be assumed.

Thinking like yours would be the end of us.  We need to follow the evidence.

[Alan Burns]

hah, just as I suspected, back to your old tricks again, lobbing in 'materially' (etc) as if that makes some difference to logic. I'm sure Stranger must have explained this at least 4367 times - adding in such adjectives makes no difference to the logic of the situation. Two plus two will always equal four irrespective of whether you add them up quickly, or slowly, or hungrily, or irreverently or spiritually or materially.  It makes no difference.  However you cut and slice it, random means not deterministic and deterministic means not random. Get over it, these are the meanings of the words.

And you still can't seem to differentiate between physical determinism - over which we can have no control, and spiritual determinism - which is determined by the conscious will of the human soul.

[torridon]

And you still can't seem to differentiate between physical determinism - over which we can have no control, and spiritual determinism - which is determined by the conscious will of the human soul.

so apparently you didn't bother to actually read the post you respond to.  'Physically' deterministic is still deterministic. 'Spiritually' deterministic is still deterministic

[Gordon]

And you still can't seem to differentiate between physical determinism - over which we can have no control, and spiritual determinism - which is determined by the conscious will of the human soul.

Not this 'soul' shite again: 'determinism' is the only term you need, Alan.

[Alan Burns]

so apparently you didn't bother to actually read the post you respond to.  'Physically' deterministic is still deterministic. 'Spiritually' deterministic is still deterministic

Yes, and .....

I have never disagreed that our will is deterministic.
It is the ultimate source of the determinism which I contend.
In the physical materialistic scenario there is no ultimate source, just endless chains of uncontrollable cause and effect.

In the spiritually determined scenario, the source is the conscious will of the human soul.

[bluehillside Retd.]

AB,

And you still can't seem to differentiate between physical determinism - over which we can have no control, and spiritual determinism - which is determined by the conscious will of the human soul.

Ooh me me - pick me!

Me? Right-oh...

"Physical determinism" is meaningless because the "physical" is irrelevant nonsense intended to imply that there's necessarily a non-physical counterpart to it.

"Spiritual determinism" and "the conscious will of the human soul" on the other hand is just shit you've made up with no definition, no logic, no evidence and no explanatory functionality to validate it.

Where do I collect my biscuit please?   

[Alan Burns]

"Physical determinism" is meaningless because the "physical" is irrelevant nonsense intended to imply that there's necessarily a non-physical counterpart to it.

Physical is entirely relevant, because it implies that control is entirely determined by the laws of physics - nothing else.

"Spiritual determinism" and "the conscious will of the human soul" on the other hand is just shit you've made up with no definition, no logic, no evidence and no explanatory functionality to validate it.

The evidence lies in you own demonstrable ability to implement acts of your own free will.

[Sebastian Toe]

Physical is entirely relevant, because it implies that control is entirely determined by the laws of physics - nothing else.The evidence lies in you own demonstrable ability to implement acts of your own free will.

That's not evidence, it's wishful thinking on your part.
Derived purely from your biological brain.
No soul required.

[torridon]

Yes, and .....

I have never disagreed that our will is deterministic.
It is the ultimate source of the determinism which I contend.
In the physical materialistic scenario there is no ultimate source, just endless chains of uncontrollable cause and effect.

In the spiritually determined scenario, the source is the conscious will of the human soul.

And if you agree that our will is deterministic then you agree there is no freedom.  It makes no difference how a decision is arrived at, at the end of the day the outcome is still a binary - the outcome is either a consequence of causal factors, or it is random.  This is the logic of determinism.  Saying we arrived at a choice through spiritual means changes nothing other than the mechanism.  At the end of the day, there is no freedom in determinism.  To claim such, is an oxymoron.

[bluehillside Retd.]

AB,

Physical is entirely relevant, because it implies that control is entirely determined by the laws of physics - nothing else.

No it doesn't. Whether it's all physics or there's a little supernatural man at the controls each of them must function either deterministically or randomly. There is no third option, so positing a wee magic man just shifts your problem somewhere else - what freedom would that magic man have other than the same freedom we have anyway, albeit that that functional day-to-day impression of freedom is in fact ultimately illusory? Your way out of your problem of how a "soul" would operate (essentially, "it's magic innit") explains nothing.   

The evidence lies in you own demonstrable ability to implement acts of your own free will.

You've been corrected on this, what, 100 times maybe? Why then do you persist with the same mistake over and over again? That's not evidence at all - it's just a narrative you tell yourself even though the hopelessness of this thinking has been undone so many times. Of course I act with "free" will in the sense that that's how it feels for practical purposes - and indeed that model served well enough for the comparatively primitive peoples who invented terms like "soul" to explain the explanatory gap it gave them. Fortunately though since then our species has hugely improved it's reasoning and the research tools at its disposal to reach a far deeper and richer understanding of reality, so has been able to junk the previous menagerie of gods, souls, devils and the like. For some reason you seem to be stuck with pre-science though, despite having your error in doing so shown to you repeatedly.

Oh well.   

[Alan Burns]

Postscript to the Sven/Eric saga (#31222)

tribal chief: And what do you have to say for yourself, Sven?

Sven:  It was just an uncontrollable reaction to Eric's ranting about Thor.  The brain cells in my head just produced this inevitable series of physical reactions which caused me to swing the axe and chop his head off.  Not my fault.  Nature did it!

[Alan Burns]

And if you agree that our will is deterministic then you agree there is no freedom.  It makes no difference how a decision is arrived at, at the end of the day the outcome is still a binary - the outcome is either a consequence of causal factors, or it is random.  This is the logic of determinism.  Saying we arrived at a choice through spiritual means changes nothing other than the mechanism.  At the end of the day, there is no freedom in determinism.  To claim such, is an oxymoron.

But in this you are making the unqualified presumption that if spiritual will exists, it will be pre determined in the same mechanical way of inevitable cause and effect as observed in material entities.  Can you not see the possibility that human will does not have such constraints?  You can't presume to know how spiritual will gets invoked.  Our spiritual willpower gives us the freedom to invoke a conscious choice - that is surely the definition of will - it is not just an inevitable reaction.