Author Topic: Searching for GOD...  (Read 3897521 times)

Alan Burns

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #31375 on: September 26, 2018, 03:53:34 PM »
OK, then if the human will is not absolutely free then the alternative is that it is determined by assessment of the options.  The Jesus way out of this was to sacrifice what he willed and surrender to the Will of his God even if it meant his death.  He became consciously choiceless.  I think you are also confusing consciousness with will.
I agree that we can have conscious assessment of the feasible options prior to invoking a consciously driven choice.

The Gospels tell us that Jesus freely chose to do the Father's will (John 10:18).  The Father did not take over.  Jesus was fully aware of the Father's will, but He uses His own freedom to choose to do the Father's will.  We all have this God given gift to make our own choices.  We are told in the Gospels the best way to use this precious gift, but we still have personal control.
« Last Edit: September 26, 2018, 04:02:25 PM by Alan Burns »
The truth will set you free  - John 8:32
Truth is not an abstraction, but a person - Edith Stein
Free will, though it makes evil possible, is also the only thing that makes possible any love or goodness or joy worth having. - CS Lewis
Joy is the Gigantic Secret of Christians - GK Chesterton

bluehillside Retd.

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #31376 on: September 26, 2018, 03:58:32 PM »
AB,

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Of course I understand the evidence.

That seems very unlikely to me given your absolute refusal ever to engage with it, preferring instead the same failed trope of “If I’m typing this I must have free will”.

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I understand that the evidence which is entirely based upon the observation of the physical electro chemical activity in the material brain will inevitably come up with a conclusion that all human behaviour is entirely attributable to pre defined physical reactions.

What the hell is wrong with you? I’ve corrected you on this over and over again, yet in response you’re like a fly endlessly banging against the window unable or unwilling ever to go outside.

For the last freakin’ time, materialism concerns itself with claims that are investigable. If you want to posit (albeit incoherent and irrational) speculations about a supposed supernatural, then what you have is white noise until and unless you finally come up with a means to investigate these claims. Might you be right just as a matter of dumb luck? It’s conceptually possible I suppose, however unlikely. Do you provide any reason to think you are right on the other hand? None whatsoever.

Materialism produces functional truths verifiable through inter-subjective experience – the aspirin still works regardless of our personal opinions on the matter. It makes no claim however to ultimate truths.

Why is this so hard for you? Seriously, why though?   

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But the evidence which is ignored is the human ability to consciously invoke acts of will, and this evidence is written off as an illusion because it does not fit in with the materialistic scenario, even though the materialistic scenario does not fully define our human awareness or how it works.

Breathes deeply, counts slowly to ten etc…

…That is NOT evidence. It’s just a narrative you happen to find persuasive, and nothing more. And it’s not “written off as an illusion” at all unless by “it” you actually mean your fundamentally irrational take on “free” will, which must necessarily be written off because of its irrationality. Actually the “materialistic scenario” readily accommodates your relatively superficial impression of unfettered decision-making - the mistake you make is an explicable one - but it’s also capable of much deeper analysis to uncover layers of reality that sit beneath it.       

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I put it to you that it is not just a case for the materialistic scenario not being fully explained, but that it is inexplicable - because any materialistic explanation will effectively deny the reality of our freedom to make conscious choices and confer ultimate control to the laws of physics.

Then you put it to me utterly wrongly for reasons that have been explained to you countless time now but that you continue to ignore. You cannot possibly know what’s likely to be inexplicable in future; that “reality of our freedom” is just an irrational and unqualified assertion; and of course the laws of physics are currently the prevailing paradigm because they provide the most robust model we have – and certainly more robust than the white noise of mindless assertion.     

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You can't have it both ways, Blue.

Of course I can. The reality a goldfish has is a reality even though it’s unable to comprehend other realities outside the bowl. Those other realities exist too though – which is why you can “have it” many ways, like a Russian Easter egg of realities. Your huge mistake here though is to think that your goldfish reality must somehow bound any other possible realities.

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Either I have the freedom to consciously choose my words - in which case I can rightly be accused of personal incredulity.

Give it a break willya? Yes of course you can when that “I” is one reality and the accusation is directed at that level or reality. That there are levels of reality underneath that changes nothing, despite your frankly bizarre notion that the way things seem to you must necessarily define every reality there is regardless of the reasoning and evidence that falsifies you.

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Or all my choices are in fact physically predetermined in subconscious brain activity, in which case there is no possibility for me being personally responsible for the choices I make.

I’m crying now. On the plus side, you have perhaps created a new term for the next edition of the OED:

“Burnsism (mass noun)

The irrational and unqualified notion that personal experience necessatily provides explanations for deeper realities.

Eg: The Earth looks flat to me, therefore the Earth must be flat.”
« Last Edit: September 26, 2018, 05:33:35 PM by bluehillside Retd. »
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Shaker

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #31377 on: September 26, 2018, 04:55:07 PM »
What the hell is wrong with you?
Theism.
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Why is this so hard for you? Seriously, why though?
Theism.
Pain, or damage, don't end the world. Or despair, or fucking beatings. The world ends when you're dead. Until then, you got more punishment in store. Stand it like a man, and give some back. - Al Swearengen, Deadwood.

SusanDoris

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #31378 on: September 26, 2018, 04:56:20 PM »
Theism.
And a mind tightly closed against reason.
The Most Honourable Sister of Titular Indecision.

Shaker

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #31379 on: September 26, 2018, 04:57:02 PM »
And a mind tightly closed against reason.
As I was saying ...
Pain, or damage, don't end the world. Or despair, or fucking beatings. The world ends when you're dead. Until then, you got more punishment in store. Stand it like a man, and give some back. - Al Swearengen, Deadwood.

bluehillside Retd.

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #31380 on: September 26, 2018, 06:28:15 PM »
Susan,

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And a mind tightly closed against reason.

And proudly so it seems. He's repeatedly told us that no reasoning or evidence could ever change his mind (by which unwittingly he actually means "could ever be allowed to change his mind). That's what's so infuriating I find about AB and others of his ilk - they like to assert that reason and evidence leads them to their faith beliefs (in which case, what need is there of the "faith" bit?) whereas in fact their attempts at either collapse immediately they're tried. Surely it would be more honest at least to say something like, "look, I know I can't support this with any sort of cogent logic but it's my faith belief nonetheless and that's the beginning and the end of it".

I suspect that at some level he's aware that such honesty would come at a cost - ie, that he'd then have no reason at all to expect anyone else to agree - so perhaps it's the detonating of his rationale for evangelism that forces him to pursue irrationality and incomprehension with such obduracy and obtuseness. Who can say?
« Last Edit: September 26, 2018, 06:38:58 PM by bluehillside Retd. »
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Alan Burns

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #31381 on: September 26, 2018, 11:18:17 PM »
Susan,

And proudly so it seems. He's repeatedly told us that no reasoning or evidence could ever change his mind (by which unwittingly he actually means "could ever be allowed to change his mind). That's what's so infuriating I find about AB and others of his ilk - they like to assert that reason and evidence leads them to their faith beliefs (in which case, what need is there of the "faith" bit?) whereas in fact their attempts at either collapse immediately they're tried. Surely it would be more honest at least to say something like, "look, I know I can't support this with any sort of cogent logic but it's my faith belief nonetheless and that's the beginning and the end of it".

I suspect that at some level he's aware that such honesty would come at a cost - ie, that he'd then have no reason at all to expect anyone else to agree - so perhaps it's the detonating of his rationale for evangelism that forces him to pursue irrationality and incomprehension with such obduracy and obtuseness. Who can say?
I confess to being truly amazed at your faith in what can be achieved by the physically predetermined layers of reality which sit beneath our perception of freedom.  In particular the in depth detailed defence of your materialistic scenario which has been produced by your considerable abilities to apparently control your own thought processes in producing such profoundly thought out replies.  Well done!
The truth will set you free  - John 8:32
Truth is not an abstraction, but a person - Edith Stein
Free will, though it makes evil possible, is also the only thing that makes possible any love or goodness or joy worth having. - CS Lewis
Joy is the Gigantic Secret of Christians - GK Chesterton

Alan Burns

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #31382 on: September 26, 2018, 11:20:44 PM »
Tell that one to the judge.
Which adequately emphasises the point I was trying to make.
Thanks Ippy.
The truth will set you free  - John 8:32
Truth is not an abstraction, but a person - Edith Stein
Free will, though it makes evil possible, is also the only thing that makes possible any love or goodness or joy worth having. - CS Lewis
Joy is the Gigantic Secret of Christians - GK Chesterton

Sebastian Toe

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #31383 on: September 26, 2018, 11:39:16 PM »
AB
I confess to being truly amazed at your faith in what you think can be achieved by the totally unevidenced, completely logic free, layers of reality which you proffer as to the source of your perception of freedom.  In particular the in depth detailed defence of your, not if this universe, not of this world, out if time, out of reality scenario which has actually been produced by your biological brain's considerable abilities to control your  thought processes in producing such profoundly thought out replies.  Well done!


"The word God is for me nothing more than the expression and product of human weaknesses, the Bible a collection of honourable, but still primitive legends.'
Albert Einstein

torridon

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #31384 on: September 27, 2018, 06:47:32 AM »
Robins react according to pre preprogramed instinct and learnt experiences - no choice just reaction.

At some level it comes down to the same thing.  Robins have instincts and they also learn from experience. Humans have instincts and they also learn from experience.  The difference between choice in a robin and choice in a human is one of relative complexity and cognitive functioning.  Humans have to deal with far greater complexity in resolving decisions, but it must at the end of the day come down to weighing options against each other in a normalised scale of values to identify the option with the greatest appeal and given we have no 'freedom' to alter facts beyond our control, there can be no real freedom in the outcome of that weighing-up process.  It makes no difference ultimately whether choices are made consciously or subconsciously.  Thinking around a topic to identify the best choice is a tool, an aid, to help resolve that process of weighing up, but it does not permit us to alter the fundamentals of the situation, it does not enable us to like something we don't like or believe something we don't believe.  Thinking allows us to improve our decision making, it does not offer 'freedom' from determinism, that would be disastrous.  Better cognitive functioning permits better decision making within a deterministic context is all.  The best decision we can make is the one that is the truest response to needs; a decision that were somehow 'free' of the constraints of need would be the worst possible decision imaginable.

ippy

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #31385 on: September 27, 2018, 07:32:24 AM »
Which adequately emphasises the point I was trying to make.
Thanks Ippy.

Your point?

Commiserations to you Alan, ippy

Roses

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #31386 on: September 27, 2018, 09:01:33 AM »
This thread just goes round and round in circles, with the same points being made over and over again. I think it should be consigned to the rubbish bin. ::)
"At the going down of the sun and in the morning we will remember them."

Rhiannon

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #31387 on: September 27, 2018, 09:05:50 AM »
And yet there is some outstandingly good writing here. That’s why it’s stickied.

bluehillside Retd.

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #31388 on: September 27, 2018, 09:23:52 AM »
AB,

Why do you do this? Seriously though? You attempt various arguments here that pretty much invariably are flawed. I then take the time to rebut them point-by-point. In response you ignore the rebuttals as if they hadn’t been made, and then either just repeat your mistakes or attempt a new piece of bad thinking like that below.

Why on earth do you bother, and why for that matter should anyone not think this behaviour to be evasive at best and possibly dishonest?

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I confess to being truly amazed at your faith…

There is no “faith” – I just go where the most robust reasoning and evidence that’s available to me lead. Why would I (or anyone possessed of a functioning intellect) junk that for assertions that have neither reasoning nor evidence to support them? Why do you?

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…in what can be achieved by the physically predetermined layers of reality which sit beneath our perception of freedom.

Your supposed amazement is (yet again) just an expression of your personal incredulity. Amazement does not invalidate evidence, however much you may wish that to be the case. Worse, as consciousness as a material phenomenon is consistent with the results from every field of study engaged in researching it (no neuroscience departments at universities have special “invisible little man at the controls” sections) the only faith here is the faith (and ego) it takes just to pretend you know better than all that because your “faith” tells you otherwise. Whoopy-doo. So what? 

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In particular the in depth detailed defence of your materialistic scenario which has been produced by your considerable abilities to apparently control your own thought processes in producing such profoundly thought out replies.  Well done!

Ignorance and sarcasm combined. Well done to you.

Look, either finally you can try at least to engage with the arguments that undo you or you can continue to ignore them in favour of your entirely unqualified assertions. Ignoring them though doesn’t falsify them – it just leaves you looking foolish, or worse. Is that really where you want to be? Really though? 
"Don't make me come down there."

God

ekim

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #31389 on: September 27, 2018, 10:37:02 AM »
Torridon:
"The best decision we can make is the one that is the truest response to needs; a decision that were somehow 'free' of the constraints of need would be the worst possible decision imaginable. "
Bluehillside:
"I just go where the most robust reasoning and evidence that’s available to me lead. Why would I (or anyone possessed of a functioning intellect) junk that for assertions that have neither reasoning nor evidence to support them? Why do you?"

I've snipped out these two comments because I think they are linked.  I don't know Alan but it is quite possible that his needs are such that his belief is his truest response to satisfying those needs and the more intense those needs are, the more intense will his means of defending them be.  It is quite possible that those needs are not satisfied by reason and logic and not defensible by reason and logic and that the only evidence required by him is whether his belief and faith actually work in practice.  The mistake could be in assuming that such a faith will work for all or that reason, rationality and logic is the only true response to satisfying all needs.

Alan Burns

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #31390 on: September 27, 2018, 10:42:54 AM »
Your supposed amazement is (yet again) just an expression of your personal incredulity. Amazement does not invalidate evidence, however much you may wish that to be the case. Worse, as consciousness as a material phenomenon is consistent with the results from every field of study engaged in researching it (no neuroscience departments at universities have special “invisible little man at the controls” sections) the only faith here is the faith (and ego) it takes just to pretend you know better than all that because your “faith” tells you otherwise. Whoopy-doo. So what? 
You do not seem to recognise the limitations of what neuroscience has discovered, or possible will discover in the future.  Your implication that conscious awareness is an entirely material phenomenon is far from being shown to be true.  Neuroscience deals with the mechanics of passing information through complex networks, and there is correlation to show which areas of the brain are associated with certain aspects of functionality, but within this there is no definition for what comprises conscious awareness or thoughts, or what controls our thought processes.  And underlying all this is the physical deterministic nature of material events, which effectively consigns ultimate control to material reactions, leaving our conscious awareness to apparently just spectate upon predetermined events.  Do you honestly believe that this is the case?
The truth will set you free  - John 8:32
Truth is not an abstraction, but a person - Edith Stein
Free will, though it makes evil possible, is also the only thing that makes possible any love or goodness or joy worth having. - CS Lewis
Joy is the Gigantic Secret of Christians - GK Chesterton

bluehillside Retd.

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #31391 on: September 27, 2018, 10:47:32 AM »
Hi ekim,

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Torridon:
"The best decision we can make is the one that is the truest response to needs; a decision that were somehow 'free' of the constraints of need would be the worst possible decision imaginable. "
Bluehillside:
"I just go where the most robust reasoning and evidence that’s available to me lead. Why would I (or anyone possessed of a functioning intellect) junk that for assertions that have neither reasoning nor evidence to support them? Why do you?"

I've snipped out these two comments because I think they are linked.  I don't know Alan but it is quite possible that his needs are such that his belief is his truest response to satisfying those needs and the more intense those needs are, the more intense will his means of defending them be.  It is quite possible that those needs are not satisfied by reason and logic and not defensible by reason and logic and that the only evidence required by him is whether his belief and faith actually work in practice.  The mistake could be in assuming that such a faith will work for all or that reason, rationality and logic is the only true response to satisfying all needs.

Yes, it’s entirely possible that his needs are not satisfied by reason and logic but that then begs the question of why he keeps trying to use these tools to argue his case, albeit incompetently. Why not instead say something like, “look I know I have no reason and logic to support my beliefs but my faith tells they’re correct nonetheless and that’s the beginning and the end of it”?

On possible reason that I alluded to a while back is that he’s aware that such honesty would come at the cost of detonating his evangelism – why would anyone take any one such faith claim any more seriously than any other? – but as with everything else that undoes him I don’t suppose he’ll have the decency to engage with it.     
"Don't make me come down there."

God

SteveH

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #31392 on: September 27, 2018, 11:51:12 AM »
Blue does NOT exist.
Just like common sense in the more intellectually pretentious members of this forum.
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Rhiannon

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #31393 on: September 27, 2018, 12:23:56 PM »
Just like common sense in the more intellectually pretentious members of this forum.

Do you think that theism is a demonstration of common sense?

bluehillside Retd.

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #31394 on: September 27, 2018, 12:48:56 PM »
AB,

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You do not seem to recognise the limitations of what neuroscience has discovered…

To the contrary, I’m perfectly aware that that the picture is incomplete, and for that matter that significant advances in our understanding are regularly made.

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…or possible will discover in the future.

Except of course you cannot know what limits there may be on what could be discovered in future, and so you overreach by asserting that consciousness will be forever unfathomable.

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Your implication that conscious awareness is an entirely material phenomenon is far from being shown to be true.

It’s probabilistically "true" inasmuch as an incomplete answer is more likely to point to the correct picture than no answer at all. “God”, “soul” etc aren’t even answers – they’re the abnegation of answers because there’s no means to investigate them. You’re putting yourself squarely in the position again of the Viking who asserts "Thor" because the meteorology of the time didn’t fully explain thunder. Even conceptually, why can’t you grasp this – that non-investigable white noise is a worse answer than partly investigable reason and evidence?     

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Neuroscience deals with the mechanics of passing information through complex networks, and there is correlation to show which areas of the brain are associated with certain aspects of functionality, but within this there is no definition for what comprises conscious awareness or thoughts, or what controls our thought processes.

Actually neuroscience is a lot more than that, and you’re forgetting too the fields of experimental psychology, biology, philosophy, logic, medicine, phenomenology and who knows what other areas of study that are working on consciousness and are heading in the same direction. Do you really think that little old you and your “it’s god innit?” would cause them all to smack their collective foreheads with an “of course, why didn’t we think of that earlier?”, down tools and take up jobs as itinerant musicians or something instead?

Seriously though?     

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And…

You can’t have an “and” when your initial effort has just collapsed again. 

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…underlying all this is the physical deterministic nature of material events, which effectively consigns ultimate control to material reactions, leaving our conscious awareness to apparently just spectate upon predetermined events.  Do you honestly believe that this is the case?

And speaking of collapsing, yet again you lapse into an argumentum ad consequentiam. Your terminology is all out, but yes - above the level of the quantum field at least nature gives every indication of being deterministic. Unless and until you even try to address your determined vs random problem, just telling us that you really don’t like the consequences of determinism (because it offends your ”deepest sense” of who you are or some such irrelevance) just means you'll continue to embarrass yourself each time you do it.

Sorry, but there it is.     
« Last Edit: September 27, 2018, 12:52:42 PM by bluehillside Retd. »
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God

bluehillside Retd.

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #31395 on: September 27, 2018, 12:50:50 PM »
Steve H,

Quote
Just like common sense in the more intellectually pretentious members of this forum.

What makes you think people who use ideas and reason so support their positions are being intellectually pretentious?
"Don't make me come down there."

God

torridon

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #31396 on: September 27, 2018, 01:04:12 PM »
You do not seem to recognise the limitations of what neuroscience has discovered, or possible will discover in the future.  Your implication that conscious awareness is an entirely material phenomenon is far from being shown to be true.  Neuroscience deals with the mechanics of passing information through complex networks, and there is correlation to show which areas of the brain are associated with certain aspects of functionality, but within this there is no definition for what comprises conscious awareness or thoughts, or what controls our thought processes.  And underlying all this is the physical deterministic nature of material events, which effectively consigns ultimate control to material reactions, leaving our conscious awareness to apparently just spectate upon predetermined events.  Do you honestly believe that this is the case?

"Predetermined" is not quite the word I would choose, but broadly speaking, yes, the science seems absolutely on the right track to me.  The idea of consciousness lag may be counterintuitive, we are not aware of it, for obvious reasons, but it makes total sense within the broad arc of what we have come to understand about mind. The notion that subconscious mind is the real driver of human motivation goes all the way back to Freud and everything we have learned through cognitive science research and neuroscience since then has only strengthened that understanding. Furthermore we don't have to merely accept the word of scientists on this either, there are many ways to gain personal insight into it, for instance there are numerous thought experiments and cognitive illusions which expose these aspects of mind, several of such I've posted up on this thread in the past.  When you become accustomed to understanding mind in this way, you start to notice evidence for it everywhere in your personal life.

BeRational

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #31397 on: September 27, 2018, 01:14:52 PM »
Just like common sense in the more intellectually pretentious members of this forum.

Not sure what you mean.

Blue does not exist out there.

It only exists in your mind, and your blue is no one else's blue.

Blue is not an attribute of reality.
I see gullible people, everywhere!

SteveH

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #31398 on: September 27, 2018, 01:24:22 PM »
It's an emergent property. Tosay it doesn't exist is to be ontologically reductionist.
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bluehillside Retd.

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #31399 on: September 27, 2018, 01:28:23 PM »
Steve H,

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...ontologically reductionist.

How very intellectually pretentious of you  ;)
« Last Edit: September 27, 2018, 01:36:04 PM by bluehillside Retd. »
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