Author Topic: Searching for GOD...  (Read 3900329 times)

bluehillside Retd.

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #31525 on: October 01, 2018, 04:55:40 PM »
Gabriella,

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No point in just quoting what he wrote since our disagreement is how we interpreted what he wrote.

No, there’s every point when his words were so plainly expressed. If you think you can get inside his head (or would even want to) to discern that he actually meant something other than what he said that’s a matter for the two of you to discuss.   

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Theories don't remove AB's idea of a spiritual agent interacting with the brain in the process of reasoning and in making reasoned choices, especially choices that have significant consequences. Or as AB likes to put it: the soul's free will to make a conscious choice of action between different subconscious desires, fears and wants.

Theories don’t remove any speculations that are not investigable – orbiting teapots and storks delivering babies alike. 

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Theories are different explanations of the findings available at the time. There is no finding of a spiritual agent existing so theories don't rule them in or out, so AB doesn't need to worry. The recent findings of brain activity measured before a specific decision to act have led to a theory about the sub-conscious mind and decision-making that requires further investigation and evidence. It doesn't rule out that the conscious mind is involved in reasoning out complex decisions with significant potential consequences. Nor does it rule out AB's theories of the brain interacting with something that can't be currently investigated.

You’re fundamentally mistaken here. AB should “worry” when he baldy tells us that he rejects “any theory” that provides an explanation that doesn’t accord with his superstitious beliefs. He compounds the problem by expecting others to agree with him on the basis of his evangelism.   

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This summary of current thinking on sub-conscious vs conscious by Magda Ossman, an experimental psychologist at Queen Mary's, London, is worth looking at:
https://thepsychologist.bps.org.uk/volume-28/february-2015/does-our-unconscious-rule

Why? So far as I can tell she doesn’t even bother to engage with AB’s (and her) central problem – how would conscious a decision-making entity deal with the determined vs random problem?

 

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There is a connection between what AB wrote about denying a theory that rules out the "reality that we are capable of driving our own thoughts and invoking conscious choices" and what I wrote. I didn't just make it up you banana.

Yes you did you banana. Try reading it again without the distorting specs on. He explained himself perfectly plainly however determined you are to reinvent what he actually said. Incidentally, I can’t help but feel your pain here – each time you twist in the wind to dream up ever-more convoluted explanations of what you think he meant, he shoots you in both feet with even more bonkers stuff (“forces of evil” etc).

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He has been stating repeatedly that he thinks the conscious brain drives decisions he makes - such as what he decides to write on this forum, what he decides to edit out or alter -  and that seems to be what he has labelled or defined as free-will. He also thinks his brain is interacting with his soul as he thinks his soul determines his free-will choices i.e. his conscious reasoned choices between competing desires and fears. He acknowledges that past events will influence those competing desires and fears and therefore influences his choice, but he thinks his choice between those desires and fears is a reasoned conscious choice made by his brain interacting with his soul. There is no evidence for his concept of a soul, and many other people could just leave out the soul completely and investigate the role of the conscious brain in complex decision-making, but AB has included a soul in his explanation.

And thereby given himself a huge problem with the binary determined vs random issue. So? 

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Which theory are you thinking of that rules out what he thinks is happening when he writes his posts for example? If you link to it and copy and paste the relevant bit or refer me to the relevant paragraph, I'll have a read as maybe I am misunderstanding what you are getting at when you say he dismisses entirely scientific findings.

Some logic 101 might help you here. What theory rules out my storks delivering babies conviction would you say? Try Russell’s teapot to see where you’ve gone wrong here.   

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Your initial claim was that AB consistently entirely dismisses scientific findings we do have because it provides an incomplete explanation for consciousness. I don't see him dismissing entirely scientific findings so much as asking questions, some of which are being asked by other experimental psychologists, except he adds on evangelism about souls and God to answer some of his own questions.

I suggest you read what he actually said. He told us that he “denies any theory that….” etc remember?   
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bluehillside Retd.

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #31526 on: October 01, 2018, 05:03:54 PM »
Steve H,

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I was referring to artistic judgements.

Not in your opening effort you weren’t. Here it is again:

"Of course there's objective right and wrong. If there isn't, how can we condemn the Nazis, or Brady and Hindley?" (Reply 31490)

The answer that I explained to you is that we can condemn these things readily with no objective morality being necessary. The artistic judgment part came later when I explained the analogy with aesthetics (and with language).

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No, because if that was the general rule, we'd all be living in constant fear, with a consequent big reduction in happiness. See new thread in "Philosophy" if you want a sensible discussion (in marked contrast to the replies so far) of utilitarianism.

My replies have been perfectly sensible. That you can’t rebut them doesn’t change that. And if you want to advocate rules-based utilitarianism that’s fine, but you just re-frame the same problem when you do – whose rules?
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Nearly Sane

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #31527 on: October 01, 2018, 05:05:51 PM »
Steve H,

Not in your opening effort you weren’t. Here it is again:

"Of course there's objective right and wrong. If there isn't, how can we condemn the Nazis, or Brady and Hindley?" (Reply 31490)

The answer that I explained to you is that we can condemn these things readily with no objective morality being necessary. The artistic judgment part came later when I explained the analogy with aesthetics (and with language).

My replies have been perfectly sensible. That you can’t rebut them doesn’t change that. And if you want to advocate rules-based utilitarianism that’s fine, but you just re-frame the same problem when you do – whose rules?
I think Steve's point about replies applied, in his view, to the replies on the Utilitarianism thread.

SteveH

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #31528 on: October 01, 2018, 05:20:04 PM »
Steve H,

My replies have been perfectly sensible. That you can’t rebut them doesn’t change that. And if you want to advocate rules-based utilitarianism that’s fine, but you just re-frame the same problem when you do – whose rules?
Sorry - I may have been somewhat ambiguous. the non-sesible replies I was referring to were those on the Utilitarianism thread up to then, but it has got a bit more sensible now.
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ippy

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #31529 on: October 01, 2018, 05:27:13 PM »
Thank you for your unevidenced belief about Dorothy Rowe. Almost as interesting as the opinions AB puts forward.

It's for you to have a look at Dr Dorothy Rowe's works, books etc, via Mr Google and make up your own mind Gabriella, I just happen to think she takes a realistic view of psychology, psychology without the woo if you like.

Regards ippy.

bluehillside Retd.

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #31530 on: October 01, 2018, 05:38:14 PM »
NS,

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I think Steve's point about replies applied, in his view, to the replies on the Utilitarianism thread.

Yup, he's said as much now. Thanks.

Steve H - thanks for clarifying. 
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The Accountant, OBE, KC

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #31531 on: October 01, 2018, 05:44:49 PM »
Gabriella,

No, there’s every point when his words were so plainly expressed. If you think you can get inside his head (or would even want to) to discern that he actually meant something other than what he said that’s a matter for the two of you to discuss.
I don't need to get inside his head. He has expressed himself repeatedly on this thread that he thinks his soul through free will interacts with his brain to make conscious choices. And he denies a theory that rules out the "reality that we are capable of driving our own thoughts and invoking conscious choices"

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Theories don’t remove any speculations that are not investigable – orbiting teapots and storks delivering babies alike.
Great. Then AB isn't denying a theory as it isn't ruling out his speculations about conscious choices or souls.   

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You’re fundamentally mistaken here. AB should “worry” when he baldy tells us that he rejects “any theory” that provides an explanation that doesn’t accord with his superstitious beliefs. He compounds the problem by expecting others to agree with him on the basis of his evangelism.
No, you're fundamentally mistaken, since what AB actually said was that he denies a theory that rules out the "reality that we are capable of driving our own thoughts and invoking conscious choices"  as opposed to what you wrote. It's up to other people if they want to agree with him based on his evangelism or based on differing views about how the unconscious and conscious brain interacts and what else the parts of the brain interact with to produce thoughts and decisions.

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Why? So far as I can tell she doesn’t even bother to engage with AB’s (and her) central problem – how would conscious a decision-making entity deal with the determined vs random problem?
That's up to you if you want to discount the issues that Magda Osman has raised because of an irrelevant point about choices being determined or random. If your desires and fears are caused by a mix of past events, your genes, and random reasons, it doesn't rule out a conscious choice between the conflicting desires and fears. 

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Yes you did you banana. Try reading it again without the distorting specs on. He explained himself perfectly plainly however determined you are to reinvent what he actually said. Incidentally, I can’t help but feel your pain here – each time you twist in the wind to dream up ever-more convoluted explanations of what you think he meant, he shoots you in both feet with even more bonkers stuff (“forces of evil” etc).
I can see that you keep getting distracted by all the religious talk that prevents you from addressing the argument he made about conscious choice, you banana.

Which theory are you thinking of that rules out what he thinks is happening when he writes his posts for example? If you link to it and copy and paste the relevant bit or refer me to the relevant paragraph, I'll have a read as maybe I am misunderstanding what you are getting at when you say he dismisses entirely scientific findings.

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And thereby given himself a huge problem with the binary determined vs random issue. So?
Nope. The determined vs random issue is a separate issue from the argument about the conscious brain (or AB's soul) reasoning out a choice between the conflicting choices based on desires and fears thrown up by the subconscious.

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Some logic 101 might help you here. What theory rules out my storks delivering babies conviction would you say? Try Russell’s teapot to see where you’ve gone wrong here.   

I suggest you read what he actually said. He told us that he “denies any theory that….” etc remember?   
Your initial claim was that AB consistently entirely dismisses scientific findings we do have because it provides an incomplete explanation for consciousness. I don't see him dismissing entirely scientific findings as there are no theories ruling out what he is asking some valid questions about. Some of which are being asked by other experimental psychologists. I suggest you stop getting distracted by his evangelism about souls and God that he uses to answer some of his own questions.
« Last Edit: October 01, 2018, 05:47:09 PM by Gabriella »
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The Accountant, OBE, KC

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #31532 on: October 01, 2018, 06:07:02 PM »
It's for you to have a look at Dr Dorothy Rowe's works, books etc, via Mr Google and make up your own mind Gabriella, I just happen to think she takes a realistic view of psychology, psychology without the woo if you like.

Regards ippy.
Not surprisingly you need to clarify which book, which chapter or chapters, which specific paragraphs you are referring to as being relevant to this discussion about the conscious vs unconscious brain. If you don't want to, can't be bothered or are unable to put your thoughts about what you read into an explanation of how it is relevant to this particular topic, then I don't find your post very useful.
I identify as a Sword because I have abstract social constructs e.g. honour and patriotism. My preferred pronouns are "kill/ maim/ dismember"

Quite handy with weapons - available for hire to defeat money laundering crooks around the world.

“Forget safety. Live where you fear to live.” Rumi

SusanDoris

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #31533 on: October 01, 2018, 06:33:03 PM »
Not surprisingly you need to clarify which book, which chapter or chapters, which specific paragraphs you are referring to as being relevant to this discussion about the conscious vs unconscious brain. If you don't want to, can't be bothered or are unable to put your thoughts about what you read into an explanation of how it is relevant to this particular topic, then I don't find your post very useful.
Just like to raise a point here: you talk about the conscious v unconscious brain. I hope you are referring to two of the states a brain can be in?

By the way, there  was an interesting short item on the PM programme about an Italian physicist's words. Adam Rutherford presented the scientist's point of view.It was about men's and women's brains!
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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #31534 on: October 01, 2018, 06:57:11 PM »
Sorry if I'm being unclear. I am referring to the conscious, subconscious and unconscious in relation to decision-making.
I identify as a Sword because I have abstract social constructs e.g. honour and patriotism. My preferred pronouns are "kill/ maim/ dismember"

Quite handy with weapons - available for hire to defeat money laundering crooks around the world.

“Forget safety. Live where you fear to live.” Rumi

SusanDoris

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #31535 on: October 01, 2018, 07:22:13 PM »
Sorry if I'm being unclear. I am referring to the conscious, subconscious and unconscious in relation to decision-making.
Thank you - but as AB talks about his soul as some kind of separate thingy, I just wanted to clarify whether you are talking about one person's one brain functioning subconsciously, or consciously, or in a state of unconsciousness.
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ippy

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #31536 on: October 01, 2018, 08:36:36 PM »
Not surprisingly you need to clarify which book, which chapter or chapters, which specific paragraphs you are referring to as being relevant to this discussion about the conscious vs unconscious brain. If you don't want to, can't be bothered or are unable to put your thoughts about what you read into an explanation of how it is relevant to this particular topic, then I don't find your post very useful.

I'm sure I referred to Dr Rowe the Australian and that she was a world renown Dr of psychology?

It would be for you to investigate and find out first hand Gabriella, only if it were to come to you via myself I could easily be accused of information bias.

Regards ippy.

Alan Burns

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #31537 on: October 02, 2018, 10:08:34 AM »
No, there’s every point when his words were so plainly expressed. If you think you can get inside his head (or would even want to) to discern that he actually meant something other than what he said that’s a matter for the two of you to discuss.   

Just to clarify, I said that I would deny any theory which effectively removes our freedom to make consciously driven choices.

No theory can take away something which is obviously true.  It would be equivalent to suggesting a theory which denies that Paris is in France.

The link which Gabriella gave earlier throws more light on the fact that our conscious awareness drives meaningful choices.  It suggests that the arbitrary choices on which much of the neurological testing is based do not give the full picture.
The truth will set you free  - John 8:32
Truth is not an abstraction, but a person - Edith Stein
Free will, though it makes evil possible, is also the only thing that makes possible any love or goodness or joy worth having. - CS Lewis
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bluehillside Retd.

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #31538 on: October 02, 2018, 10:29:55 AM »
AB,

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Just to clarify, I said that I would deny any theory which effectively removes our freedom to make consciously driven choices.

You’re still confused. Theories don’t “effectively remove” speculations about alternative explanations when those speculation are not investigable. Germ theory for example doesn’t “effectively remove” the speculation that disease is caused by malevolent aliens. Rather theories provide robust explanations that are testable, predict future outcomes, can be falsified if different evidence emerged etc. 

The models for consciousness we do have from the various fields of research working in the field do not "effectively remove" your speculation about “freedom to make consciously driven choices” – they’re indifferent to it (because it falls at the first hurdle of being logically incoherent) for the same reason that childbirth theory is indifferent to my speculations about storks.   

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No theory can take away something which is obviously true.  It would be equivalent to suggesting a theory which denies that Paris is in France.

Except it’s not “obviously true” at all. That’s just an irrational belief you happen to hold built on the odd notion that your “deepest feelings” about something must therefore explain reality at the deepest level. The don’t.   

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The link which Gabriella gave earlier throws more light on the fact that our conscious awareness drives meaningful choices.  It suggests that the arbitrary choices on which much of the neurological testing is based do not give the full picture.

No it doesn’t because the author didn’t bother to address the determined vs random problem.
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Alan Burns

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #31539 on: October 02, 2018, 10:44:29 AM »
AB,

You’re still confused. Theories don’t “effectively remove” speculations about alternative explanations when those speculation are not investigable. Germ theory for example doesn’t “effectively remove” the speculation that disease is caused by malevolent aliens. Rather theories provide robust explanations that are testable, predict future outcomes, can be falsified if different evidence emerged etc. 

The models for consciousness we do have from the various fields of research working in the field do not "effectively remove" your speculation about “freedom to make consciously driven choices” – they’re indifferent to it (because it falls at the first hurdle of being logically incoherent) for the same reason that childbirth theory is indifferent to my speculations about storks.   

Except it’s not “obviously true” at all. That’s just an irrational belief you happen to hold built on the odd notion that your “deepest feelings” about something must therefore explain reality at the deepest level. The don’t.   

No it doesn’t because the author didn’t bother to address the determined vs random problem.
It is you who seems to be confused, Blue.
The fact that we can make consciously driven choices is not speculation - it is a demonstrable truth.
It is the neurological science which is speculating about the nature and causes of our conscious awareness and freedom to choose, and appears to be encountering difficulty in trying to make it fit within an entirely materialistic environment.
« Last Edit: October 02, 2018, 10:51:06 AM by Alan Burns »
The truth will set you free  - John 8:32
Truth is not an abstraction, but a person - Edith Stein
Free will, though it makes evil possible, is also the only thing that makes possible any love or goodness or joy worth having. - CS Lewis
Joy is the Gigantic Secret of Christians - GK Chesterton

bluehillside Retd.

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #31540 on: October 02, 2018, 10:55:00 AM »
AB,

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It is you who seems to be confused, Blue.

As you never bother to engage with the reasoning that undoes you, that’s not a claim you can support.

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The fact that we can make consciously driven choices is not speculation it is a demonstrable truth.

But the irrational and incoherent speculation that the decision-making process somehow is untethered from determinism and from randomness isn’t. That’s your problem remember, even though you refuse point blank to address it. 

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It is the neurological science which is speculating about the nature and causes of our conscious awareness and freedom to choose, and appears to be encountering difficulty in trying to make it fit within an entirely materialistic environment.

No it isn’t. You’re confusing “speculation” (which is what you do) with hypotheses and deriving predictions from them as logical consequences, and then carrying out experiments or empirical observations based on those predictions to develop theories (which is what science does). Because by contrast “but that’s the way it feels to me” is all you have those of us possessed of functioning intellects can readily dismiss your efforts.
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torridon

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #31541 on: October 02, 2018, 11:48:47 AM »
It is you who seems to be confused, Blue.
The fact that we can make consciously driven choices is not speculation - it is a demonstrable truth.
It is the neurological science which is speculating about the nature and causes of our conscious awareness and freedom to choose, and appears to be encountering difficulty in trying to make it fit within an entirely materialistic environment.

Slightly more accurately - our ability to make 'consciously driven choices' is an evident truth.

What is 'evident' to us in terms of our inner mental experience is a construction of mind.  If you look at a tree, it is not the tree you are seeing, you are experiencing a phenomenological construction of mind. Touch that keyboard, that feel of solidness under your fingertips is a phenomenological construction of mind.

We have come to learn there are deeper levels of reality underlying our apparent reality, and question is, do we ignore those insights and pretend that our apparent everyday experience is all there is to know and understand ?  Would you really be so facile as to claim that particle physics is wrong because your ability to make two apples touch is 'demonstrably true' ?  That is all you are doing.
« Last Edit: October 02, 2018, 11:54:38 AM by torridon »

Sebastian Toe

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #31542 on: October 02, 2018, 12:38:18 PM »
Just to clarify, I said that I would deny any theory which effectively removes our freedom to make consciously driven choices.

It woukd help if you would point out any such current theories.

Unkess if course there are, in fact, none?
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Alan Burns

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #31543 on: October 02, 2018, 12:39:50 PM »

But the irrational and incoherent speculation that the decision-making process somehow is untethered from determinism and from randomness isn’t. That’s your problem remember, even though you refuse point blank to address it. 

I have never suggested that a conscious choice is not determined, so please do not keep bringing up the diversion of random vs determined.  Choices are determined - we agree on this.

But are they predetermined by physically controlled chains of cause and effect?

Or are they determined by a consciously driven act of will?

Bear in mind that our conscious awareness exists in the present - it is not predetermined.
« Last Edit: October 02, 2018, 12:46:21 PM by Alan Burns »
The truth will set you free  - John 8:32
Truth is not an abstraction, but a person - Edith Stein
Free will, though it makes evil possible, is also the only thing that makes possible any love or goodness or joy worth having. - CS Lewis
Joy is the Gigantic Secret of Christians - GK Chesterton

Sebastian Toe

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #31544 on: October 02, 2018, 12:41:15 PM »

No theory can take away something which is obviously true. 
Well as it is obviously true that we are a product of our biological brain, then there us no need to add speculative, unevidenced, logic-free, "souls"!
"The word God is for me nothing more than the expression and product of human weaknesses, the Bible a collection of honourable, but still primitive legends.'
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Alan Burns

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #31545 on: October 02, 2018, 12:44:35 PM »
Slightly more accurately - our ability to make 'consciously driven choices' is an evident truth.

What is 'evident' to us in terms of our inner mental experience is a construction of mind.  If you look at a tree, it is not the tree you are seeing, you are experiencing a phenomenological construction of mind. Touch that keyboard, that feel of solidness under your fingertips is a phenomenological construction of mind.

We have come to learn there are deeper levels of reality underlying our apparent reality, and question is, do we ignore those insights and pretend that our apparent everyday experience is all there is to know and understand ?  Would you really be so facile as to claim that particle physics is wrong because your ability to make two apples touch is 'demonstrably true' ?  That is all you are doing.
But you need to bear in mind that an act of conscious will is not just perceived, like our view of a tree or our sense of touch.  An act of will actually happens, and is a direct and verifiable consequence of what we intended to choose.
The truth will set you free  - John 8:32
Truth is not an abstraction, but a person - Edith Stein
Free will, though it makes evil possible, is also the only thing that makes possible any love or goodness or joy worth having. - CS Lewis
Joy is the Gigantic Secret of Christians - GK Chesterton

bluehillside Retd.

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #31546 on: October 02, 2018, 12:57:12 PM »
AB,

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I have never suggested that a conscious choice is not determined, so please do not keep bringing up the diversion of random vs determined.  Choices are determined - we agree on this.

Yes you have – what you term “conscious choice” you seem to think is done by an invisible little man at the controls, and then you deploy “it’s magic innit” to get this supposed little man off the hook of the determined vs random problem. 

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But are they predetermined…

The “pre” is superfluous. Determined is determined.
 
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…by physically controlled chains of cause and effect?

Until and unless you can ever define and demonstrate a non-physical, probably yes.

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Or are they determined by a consciously driven act of will?

That’s a false binary. How would you get this “consciously driven act” off the determined vs random hook other than with “it’s magic”?

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Bear in mind that our conscious awareness exists in the present - it is not predetermined.

Bear in mind that you’ve just made up that irrational notion. How would something “exist in the present” that’s neither determined by prior events nor random?
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torridon

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #31547 on: October 02, 2018, 01:00:29 PM »
But you need to bear in mind that an act of conscious will is not just perceived, like our view of a tree or our sense of touch.  An act of will actually happens, and is a direct and verifiable consequence of what we intended to choose.

And our intentions all have roots, they do not emerge out of nowhere, they are all part of the grand cycle of cause and effect, from which we can never be free; never be free, unless, that is, we run with a superficial view of the workings of mind. 'Why did I do that - just because I wanted to, end of story' - is a superficial understanding of the nature of volition and agency that ignores the fact that 'just because I wanted to' isn't in fact the end of the story, that story goes way back and we cannot be free of that derivation.

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #31548 on: October 02, 2018, 01:25:26 PM »
I have never suggested that a conscious choice is not determined, so please do not keep bringing up the diversion of random vs determined.  Choices are determined - we agree on this.

But are they predetermined by physically controlled chains of cause and effect?

Or are they determined by a consciously driven act of will?

Bear in mind that our conscious awareness exists in the present - it is not predetermined.

First there is just 'determined', Alan, so your 'pre' is redundant.

You have a false dichotomy here in your attempt to separate conscious acts of will from being determined (I'll ignore your usual hyperbole) when it does seem that what we experience as conscious decisions and choices are subject to cause and effect arising from mental activity that we are simply unaware of. 

An example: when I scan the menu when eating out in restaurants I will never ever choose a dish that is a salad, and will also take active steps (much to the annoyance of Mrs G) to ensure that whatever I choose will have no salad accompaniment whatsoever in any shape or form: these are conscious acts of will because of the risk that any salad will be contaminated by noxious substances that fall under the mayonnaise/salad dressing description.

However, it seems to me that my phobic distaste of these things, which I've never tried to eat and drives my active avoidance of them, is not something I've consciously decided upon as an 'act of will' even though my conscious behaviour when presented with a menu is certainly consequent to an inherent distaste that, to me, requires no thinking about.

Or does my 'soul' have a food phobia that it transmits to my biological brain when I'm choosing what to eat in a restaurant?       
« Last Edit: October 02, 2018, 03:09:55 PM by Gordon »

Alan Burns

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  • I lay it down of my own free will. John 10:18
Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #31549 on: October 02, 2018, 04:06:05 PM »
Gordon, Blue,

The reason that you can't perceive the difference between "determined" and "predetermined" lies in your presumption that everything is physically defined, and in doing so you are restricting yourselves to a very short sighted view of reality.

The difference between determined and predetermined is real and obvious.  It defines the difference between humans and robots.  It defines the difference between choice and reaction.
The truth will set you free  - John 8:32
Truth is not an abstraction, but a person - Edith Stein
Free will, though it makes evil possible, is also the only thing that makes possible any love or goodness or joy worth having. - CS Lewis
Joy is the Gigantic Secret of Christians - GK Chesterton