Author Topic: Searching for GOD...  (Read 3877325 times)

jjohnjil

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #31875 on: October 16, 2018, 09:51:47 AM »
Spiders, along with all other non human creatures, appear to follow their biologically defined instincts.
The human race, however, seem unique in their ability to be able to consciously choose to override their instincts if they so wish.

We override our instincts because our brain brings other factors into play.  These factors are triggered by our memory bank from past experiences.  The brain has conflicting signals being processed and the stronger signal can override those coning from our instincts, as in 'fight or flight'.  Spiders do the same thing, only in a far less complex manner, due only to their less developed brains.

This soul ,you assert is responsible for choosing, would have to do the exact same thing.  Are you saying it has a brain that can function that way but ours can't? 

     

Alan Burns

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #31876 on: October 16, 2018, 10:40:02 AM »

Quote
Quote from: Alan Burns on October 14, 2018, 11:33:11 PM

But the alternative logic you propose would deny that there is any definitive source for my conscious choice...
Untrue.
So please explain how the source of a conscious choice can exist if everything is entirely determined by past events in our material world.
The truth will set you free  - John 8:32
Truth is not an abstraction, but a person - Edith Stein
Free will, though it makes evil possible, is also the only thing that makes possible any love or goodness or joy worth having. - CS Lewis
Joy is the Gigantic Secret of Christians - GK Chesterton

Alan Burns

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #31877 on: October 16, 2018, 10:59:24 AM »
We override our instincts because our brain brings other factors into play.  These factors are triggered by our memory bank from past experiences.  The brain has conflicting signals being processed and the stronger signal can override those coning from our instincts, as in 'fight or flight'.  Spiders do the same thing, only in a far less complex manner, due only to their less developed brains.

This soul ,you assert is responsible for choosing, would have to do the exact same thing.  Are you saying it has a brain that can function that way but ours can't? 
 
Instinctive behavior is driven by programmed reactions to events.  The logic of these programmed reactions is presumably built up from the evolutionary processes based upon survival.  In order for our instinctive brain activity be overridden, you need some means to invoke a conscious choice, rather than just react.
The truth will set you free  - John 8:32
Truth is not an abstraction, but a person - Edith Stein
Free will, though it makes evil possible, is also the only thing that makes possible any love or goodness or joy worth having. - CS Lewis
Joy is the Gigantic Secret of Christians - GK Chesterton

jjohnjil

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #31878 on: October 16, 2018, 11:04:45 AM »
Instinctive behavior is driven by programmed reactions to events.  The logic of these programmed reactions is presumably built up from the evolutionary processes based upon survival.  In order for our instinctive brain activity be overridden, you need some means to invoke a conscious choice, rather than just react.

So how does the soul achieve this, if our human brain cannot?

Sebastian Toe

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #31879 on: October 16, 2018, 11:09:45 AM »
So how does the soul achieve this, if our human brain cannot?
Logic defying magic.
"The word God is for me nothing more than the expression and product of human weaknesses, the Bible a collection of honourable, but still primitive legends.'
Albert Einstein

Alan Burns

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #31880 on: October 16, 2018, 11:11:19 AM »
We could describe that as freedom from instinct ; a far more modest claim than being free from cause and effect. Humans have more sophisticated thought processes than spiders I think we can all agree on that. 'More sophisticated' does not equate to 'magic'
Torri,
Just to clarify once again,
I have never claimed that our freedom to choose is free from cause and effect.
Our choices are invoked by a consciously driven act of will.
I believe our contention lies in the definition of human will and how it works.
To define human will in terms of past physical events means there can be no choice, just inevitable unavoidable reaction.
The truth will set you free  - John 8:32
Truth is not an abstraction, but a person - Edith Stein
Free will, though it makes evil possible, is also the only thing that makes possible any love or goodness or joy worth having. - CS Lewis
Joy is the Gigantic Secret of Christians - GK Chesterton

Alan Burns

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #31881 on: October 16, 2018, 11:22:25 AM »
A characteristically evasive post from the master of slipperiness. That you do what you chose to do does NOT demonstrate that your choice was free of determining factors.
I agree.
But if the determining factors are defined entirely by physical chains of cause and effect, there is no choice.
In order to choose, I need the consciously driven power to invoke a choice between two or more feasible alternatives which is not just an inevitable, unavoidable reaction to previous events.
The truth will set you free  - John 8:32
Truth is not an abstraction, but a person - Edith Stein
Free will, though it makes evil possible, is also the only thing that makes possible any love or goodness or joy worth having. - CS Lewis
Joy is the Gigantic Secret of Christians - GK Chesterton

Gordon

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #31882 on: October 16, 2018, 11:33:17 AM »
Torri,
Just to clarify once again,
I have never claimed that our freedom to choose is free from cause and effect.
Our choices are invoked by a consciously driven act of will.
I believe our contention lies in the definition of human will and how it works.
To define human will in terms of past physical events means there can be no choice, just inevitable unavoidable reaction.

At base, Alan, what you are really attempting here, as you thrash around wrestling with your personal incredulity, is a kind of false dichotomy: one one hand you claim there is this 'soul' thing that does the 'invoking' and on the other hand there is everything else that the brain does - you must have the former since, if not, the prospect that consciousness and will are just part and parcel of what our biology does in a deterministic universe clearly terrifies you and, of course, would be the death-knell for your particular take on 'God'.
 

Alan Burns

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #31883 on: October 16, 2018, 11:49:08 AM »
At base, Alan, what you are really attempting here, as you thrash around wrestling with your personal incredulity, is a kind of false dichotomy: one one hand you claim there is this 'soul' thing that does the 'invoking' and on the other hand there is everything else that the brain does - you must have the former since, if not, the prospect that consciousness and will are just part and parcel of what our biology does in a deterministic universe clearly terrifies you and, of course, would be the death-knell for your particular take on 'God'.
 
The prospect of conscious awareness and human will being defined entirely by physical reactions has not entered my mind for several decades, and it certainly has not come any closer in reading the replies on this forum.  This is not because I do not understand the replies, but that they do not come close to explaining the reality of our human experience.
The truth will set you free  - John 8:32
Truth is not an abstraction, but a person - Edith Stein
Free will, though it makes evil possible, is also the only thing that makes possible any love or goodness or joy worth having. - CS Lewis
Joy is the Gigantic Secret of Christians - GK Chesterton

Sebastian Toe

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #31884 on: October 16, 2018, 11:50:04 AM »
I agree.
But if the determining factors are defined entirely by physical chains of cause and effect, there is no choice.
In order to choose, I need the consciously driven power to invoke a choice between two or more feasible alternatives which is not just an inevitable, unavoidable reaction to previous events.
Tell me Alan, in the above, almost all of the words used have alternate options. Did you conciously choose each one of the final version by comparing it against all of the other possible choices?
"The word God is for me nothing more than the expression and product of human weaknesses, the Bible a collection of honourable, but still primitive legends.'
Albert Einstein

Alan Burns

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #31885 on: October 16, 2018, 11:53:43 AM »
So how does the soul achieve this, if our human brain cannot?
That would be God's knowledge, not mine.
The truth will set you free  - John 8:32
Truth is not an abstraction, but a person - Edith Stein
Free will, though it makes evil possible, is also the only thing that makes possible any love or goodness or joy worth having. - CS Lewis
Joy is the Gigantic Secret of Christians - GK Chesterton

jjohnjil

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #31886 on: October 16, 2018, 12:00:13 PM »
That would be God's knowledge, not mine.

In other words, Alan, you have no more idea how the soul does it than how the brain does it.  So why do you think one is a fact and the other impossible?  Surely if God created souls to choose, he could have created the brain to do likewise?

Sebastian Toe

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #31887 on: October 16, 2018, 12:05:26 PM »
That would be God's knowledge, not mine.
And there we have it in a nutshell.

AB logic =
Science cannot describe (fully, yet) human conciousness, therefore it cannot possibly be down to evolved brains alone.

On the other hand AB cannot describe how a soul works (only God can seemingly) therefore a soul is the only possible answer to human conciousness.


I rest my case m'lud.
"The word God is for me nothing more than the expression and product of human weaknesses, the Bible a collection of honourable, but still primitive legends.'
Albert Einstein

Gordon

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #31888 on: October 16, 2018, 12:10:23 PM »
The prospect of conscious awareness and human will being defined entirely by physical reactions has not entered my mind for several decades,

Perhaps you needs to consider what is preventing you from considering this prospect.

Quote
... and it certainly has not come any closer in reading the replies on this forum.

That would be because your take on religious faith is getting in the way of understanding what is being said to you.

Quote
This is not because I do not understand the replies, but that they do not come close to explaining the reality of our human experience.

I suspect it is more the case that you can't risk understanding the replies given the implications for you.

Alan Burns

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #31889 on: October 16, 2018, 12:10:30 PM »
Tell me Alan, in the above, almost all of the words used have alternate options. Did you conciously choose each one of the final version by comparing it against all of the other possible choices?
I chose words which I felt expressed the meaning of what I wished to convey.  It was all driven by my conscious human will, and in no way could it be contemplated as being entirely composed by subconscious activity.
The truth will set you free  - John 8:32
Truth is not an abstraction, but a person - Edith Stein
Free will, though it makes evil possible, is also the only thing that makes possible any love or goodness or joy worth having. - CS Lewis
Joy is the Gigantic Secret of Christians - GK Chesterton

Sebastian Toe

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #31890 on: October 16, 2018, 12:15:48 PM »
I chose words which I felt expressed the meaning of what I wished to convey.  It was all driven by my conscious human will, and in no way could it be contemplated as being entirely composed by subconscious activity.
How did you choose them though, given the alternatives available? Did you sit and list them all before selecting the appropriate ones?
"The word God is for me nothing more than the expression and product of human weaknesses, the Bible a collection of honourable, but still primitive legends.'
Albert Einstein

Alan Burns

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #31891 on: October 16, 2018, 12:19:01 PM »

I suspect it is more the case that you can't risk understanding the replies given the implications for you.
That is your personal opinion, but it certainly does not convey what is in my mind.
I am constantly accused of not understanding the replies, but I can assure you that I have not come across a post which was beyond my understanding.

However I do get the feeling that many of my own posts are not fully understood by some.
The truth will set you free  - John 8:32
Truth is not an abstraction, but a person - Edith Stein
Free will, though it makes evil possible, is also the only thing that makes possible any love or goodness or joy worth having. - CS Lewis
Joy is the Gigantic Secret of Christians - GK Chesterton

Alan Burns

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #31892 on: October 16, 2018, 12:25:23 PM »
How did you choose them though, given the alternatives available? Did you sit and list them all before selecting the appropriate ones?
Some came readily to mind.
Others were chosen after thoughtful consideration from several alternatives.
I can see what you are trying to imply, but the essence of my reply is consciously chosen, as is yours.
The truth will set you free  - John 8:32
Truth is not an abstraction, but a person - Edith Stein
Free will, though it makes evil possible, is also the only thing that makes possible any love or goodness or joy worth having. - CS Lewis
Joy is the Gigantic Secret of Christians - GK Chesterton

Gordon

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #31893 on: October 16, 2018, 12:29:18 PM »
However I do get the feeling that many of my own posts are not fully understood by some.

That will be because your posts are invariably fallacy-laden and illogical, and you offer no supporting evidence for what you claim: your own personal need for 'God' is the only aspect that is consistently apparent.

jjohnjil

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #31894 on: October 16, 2018, 12:38:37 PM »
Some came readily to mind.
Others were chosen after thoughtful consideration from several alternatives.
I can see what you are trying to imply, but the essence of my reply is consciously chosen, as is yours.

Of course your reply was consciously driven, Alan, that isn't the issue. Why did your god go to the trouble of designing and created the human brain, which is as complex as fantastic as any we have produced, but leave out a way to choose?  He obviously could have done so, if he created souls to do it.

Sebastian Toe

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #31895 on: October 16, 2018, 12:49:05 PM »
Some came readily to mind.
Others were chosen after thoughtful consideration from several alternatives.
I can see what you are trying to imply, but the essence of my reply is consciously chosen, as is yours.
I think in reality  they all initially came readily to mind. The choice between the alternatives would be in a review stage or if nothing came readily to mind at first.
And that would be everyones experience here I would suggest.

"Conciously experienced" would be more accurate.
"The word God is for me nothing more than the expression and product of human weaknesses, the Bible a collection of honourable, but still primitive legends.'
Albert Einstein

Stranger

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #31896 on: October 16, 2018, 01:20:11 PM »
So please explain how the source of a conscious choice can exist if everything is entirely determined by past events in our material world.

How many more times? This is total hypocrisy on your part as you can explain absolutely nothing about how your self-contradictory soul makes choices. "it's magic, innit", which is all what you do say boils down to, isn't and explanation.

It's been explained to you how choices get made, by weighing up the alternative against your desires, fear,s inclinations, preferences, and so on, using your lifetime of experience, nature and nurture. What's so hard?

Now explain how a choice can be entirely due to pre-existing reasons (the only way for it not to have some randomness) and yet not entirely due to pre-existing reasons at the same time.
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Stranger

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #31897 on: October 16, 2018, 01:25:25 PM »
The prospect of conscious awareness and human will being defined entirely by physical reactions has not entered my mind for several decades, and it certainly has not come any closer in reading the replies on this forum.

Whereas "it's self-contradictory god-magic that is beyond human understanding and for which there is no evidence whatsoever" seems plausible to you?

All you have is personal incredulity and blind faith.
x(∅ ∈ x ∧ ∀y(yxy ∪ {y} ∈ x))

bluehillside Retd.

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #31898 on: October 16, 2018, 03:02:52 PM »
AB,

Quote
The examples of apparently deceptive feelings you gave can easily be verified by evidence you quote.

First, as I called you out on completely misrepresenting me and explained again what I actually said does it not occur to you that the decent thing to do here would be to apologise and to commit not to do it again?

Second, You have consistently elided the depth of your feeling about an experience into the validity of your explanation for it (“I really feel at my deepest level that…therefore...” etc). The point about these examples was to show you that there’s no relationship between the depth of your feeling about something and the quality of your explanation for it. No-one care how "deeply", "profoundly", "really" or anything else you feel as though you have “free” will because for explanatory purposes the strength of your feeling about that is evidentially worthless. It simply has no relevance, any more than the strength of your feeling that you touch the keyboard had any evidential value.

Why not now then say something like, “ah yes, I see that now and I commit never again to adduce as evidence for my explanation for something how strongly I happen to feel the experience of it to be”?   

Third, yes the more robust explanations can be validated by reasoning and evidence that go beyond our mere feelings about something. Why then just dismiss out of hand any reasoning and evidence that points to consciousness as a naturalistic phenomenon because your experience of it happens to feel differently?     

Quote
But my freedom to consciously choose is verified by the evidence that I have done what I chose to do.  So for the presumption that my freedom to choose is "just the way it seems", you would need some method to verify that my intended choice was entirely predetermined by past events.  The problem here is in defining the cause of the conscious intention.  The logic you appear to rely on here is that there is nothing else visibly involved other than the predetermined electrochemical activity of the brain cells.  But the problem you have is in showing that a conscious intention is entirely defined by nothing but physically predetermined, uncontrollable brain activity.

No, that isn’t “the problem” at all. There isn’t a problem other than that the models for consciousness we have so far still leave open questions and so are not complete. The same is true though for the theory of gravity, but as that doesn’t “effectively remove” (as you put it) a religious belief you happen to hold about pixies holding stuff down with very thin strings (the epistemic equivalent of “soul” by the way) you don’t just “deny” that theory regardless of its content.   

This is the fundamental dishonesty at the heart of your position yet you’ll never, ever it seems even recognise it let alone attempt to engage with it.
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God

SusanDoris

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #31899 on: October 16, 2018, 03:12:53 PM »
Whereas "it's self-contradictory god-magic that is beyond human understanding and for which there is no evidence whatsoever" seems plausible to you?

All you have is personal incredulity and blind faith.
And that, of course, is so very , very sad; when AB could be free from what looks to me like the vice-like trap of religious faith belief 

AB may feel he is free, but I speak from personal experience when I compare how I felt when I finaly erased the belief that there was a God from its very small space in my brain to the wholeness and completeness I felt afterwards and how I'd been feeling for ages anyway. I hardly noticed the disappearance since it had faded into  so small a belief.
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