Searching for GOD...

[Walt Zingmatilder]

So, is there or is there not, as research suggests, such a thing as conciousness lag?

Are you suggesting consciousness is something that affects or effects nothing?

[Alan Burns]

So, is there or is there not, as research suggests, such a thing as conciousness lag?

There is certainly a finding by researchers which indicates specific brain activity to occur before a conscious choice, but using this to draw the conclusion that we are not aware of our choices until after they are made does not reflect the obvious reality that we all have the power to consciously invoke a choice.  If our conscious self is not responsible for our choices, it makes no sense of our existence.

[SusanDoris]

There is certainly a finding by researchers which indicates specific brain activity to occur before a conscious choice, but using this to draw the conclusion that we are not aware of our choices until after they are made does not reflect the obvious reality that we all have the power to consciously invoke a choice.  If our conscious self is not responsible for our choices, it makes no sense of our existence.

What is the 'sense' of our existence then? We are born and we make our own sense in life. Then it ends.
Personally, I hope I have made the very best I could of mine.

[torridon]

I was just offering a possible explanation for the reality of our freedom to choose.
There may be other explanations.

The conclusion you suggest - that we are not aware of our conscious choices until after they are made - is not compatible with the reality of our demonstrable freedom to choose.  If we have no conscious control of our choices, it would render this entire discussion to be meaningless.

Confused, mixed up, fallacy-ridden post, on multiple levels.

"I was just offering a possible explanation for the reality of our freedom to choose."

This is an evasion that sidesteps giving a straight answer to the question of how you can reconcile two mutually contradictory positions, namely, accepting the findings of science, that conscious awareness lives in the past whilst simultaneously claiming that conscious awareness (soul) lives in the present.  You cannot have it both ways.

"The conclusion you suggest - that we are not aware of our conscious choices until after they are made - is not compatible with the reality of our demonstrable freedom to choose. "

Firstly, this is not my suggestion, I am simply pointing out relevant findings from science.  Secondly, given your notion of freedom is illogical, it is not surprising to find no support for it from relevant areas of science. A meaningful choice cannot be free from its determinants, the very idea is an oxymoron.

"If we have no conscious control of our choices, it would render this entire discussion to be meaningless."

To round it off we have a double fallacy in one statement, a non sequitur and an argumentam ad consequentiam. Firstly, whether consciousness contains executive function or not is irrelevant to the meaningfulness of the debate. Meaning is a psychological product, and I am happy to find meaning and enjoyment is these discussions despite accepting the relevant subtleties in the ways our minds work.  Secondly, even if it were the case that the debate was meaningless, that does not demonstrate the position is incorrect.

[Sebastian Toe]

Are you suggesting consciousness is something that affects or effects nothing?

I am suggesting nothing.
I am however asking a question.

[Alan Burns]

What is the 'sense' of our existence then? We are born and we make our own sense in life. Then it ends.
Personally, I hope I have made the very best I could of mine.

Here you quote two unique human attributes,
Our ability to try to make sense of our lives.
And our conscious ambition to make the most of our lives.
Attributes which would not be possible if we did not have the freedom to consciously control what we think, say and do.

[torridon]

Here you quote two unique human attributes,
Our ability to try to make sense of our lives.
And our conscious ambition to make the most of our lives.
Attributes which would not be possible if we did not have the freedom to consciously control what we think, say and do.

Humans have many distinguishing characteristics, many of them related to the ways our minds have evolved. We have sophisticated language skills, greater degrees of self awareness, strong senses of personhood, agency and morality.  Our thought processes may be more sophisticated than those in a dolphin or a chimpanzee, entertaining a wide degree of abstraction.  None of that equates to humans being some sort of magical beings from another dimension, and to entertain such outlandish notions is unjustified, and ultimately dangerous.  With seven billion of us and counting we are having significant planetary scale impacts on other life and Earth systems.  We need to be honest and realistic about what we are and our impacts on others. The rest of Earth's life does not need seven billion humans living out their lives in some delusional bubble, detached from reality, believing themselves to be separate from nature. We need to take stock of what we are, start being honest and realistic before our delusions result in our catastrophic downfall.

[SusanDoris]

Humans have many distinguishing characteristics, many of them related to the ways our minds have evolved. We have sophisticated language skills, greater degrees of self awareness, strong senses of personhood, agency and morality.  Our thought processes may be more sophisticated than those in a dolphin or a chimpanzee, entertaining a wide degree of abstraction.  None of that equates to humans being some sort of magical beings from another dimension, and to entertain such outlandish notions is unjustified, and ultimately dangerous.  With seven billion of us and counting we are having significant planetary scale impacts on other life and Earth systems.  We need to be honest and realistic about what we are and our impacts on others. The rest of Earth's life does not need seven billion humans living out their lives in some delusional bubble, detached from reality, believing themselves to be separate from nature. We need to take stock of what we are, start being honest and realistic before our delusions result in our catastrophic downfall.

so well put, as always.

[Alan Burns]

Humans have many distinguishing characteristics, many of them related to the ways our minds have evolved. We have sophisticated language skills, greater degrees of self awareness, strong senses of personhood, agency and morality.  Our thought processes may be more sophisticated than those in a dolphin or a chimpanzee, entertaining a wide degree of abstraction.  None of that equates to humans being some sort of magical beings from another dimension, and to entertain such outlandish notions is unjustified, and ultimately dangerous.  With seven billion of us and counting we are having significant planetary scale impacts on other life and Earth systems.  We need to be honest and realistic about what we are and our impacts on others. The rest of Earth's life does not need seven billion humans living out their lives in some delusional bubble, detached from reality, believing themselves to be separate from nature. We need to take stock of what we are, start being honest and realistic before our delusions result in our catastrophic downfall.

I agree that our freedom to consciously impose our will on this world, rather than just react to it, is a dangerous and potentially catastrophic ability.  But God has given us a sense of right and wrong and we need to use this gift wisely.

[Gordon]

I agree that our freedom to consciously impose our will on this world, rather than just react to it, is a dangerous and potentially catastrophic ability.  But God has given us a sense of right and wrong and we need to use this gift wisely.

Begging the question, again: you seem unable to say anything without indulging in fallacies.

[Stranger]

I agree that our freedom to consciously impose our will on this world, rather than just react to it...

Conscious choices are reactions.

And just to point out, this does not require anything but a deterministic mind. Your notion of 'freedom' remains self-contradictory and so impossible.

[jjohnjil]

Torri / Stranger

If you two or anyone else thinks that Alan is going to suddenly going to change his mind about his magic soul, forget it.  He has far too much investment in his God to succumb (as he sees it) to the guiles of Satan. 

It's a shame that he needs that to cling on to, just as a baby clings on to his/her dummy as long as possible, but for the sake of the vulnerable that could be reading his posts, please carry on countering them so brilliantly!

[Walt Zingmatilder]

Torri / Stranger

If you two or anyone else thinks that Alan is going to suddenly going to change his mind about his magic soul, forget it.  He has far too much investment in his God to succumb (as he sees it) to the guiles of Satan. 

It's a shame that he needs that to cling on to, just as a baby clings on to his/her dummy as long as possible, but for the sake of the vulnerable that could be reading his posts, please carry on countering them so brilliantly!

Let's not forget the inconsistencies in what are perceived as the best of arguments e.g. the miscorrect use of the term emergence where what is meant and held is explanation completely in terms of the previous organisational level. The confusion of the terms consciousness and intelligence, the implicit assumption that there is no hard problem of consciousness, that the use of the word evolution hides a multitude of gaps and concommitant leaps of faith and the misplaced piety about claiming that scientism and materialism is healthier for the planet when it has been precisely scientific and technological developments that have wiped out much of nature and have brought us to the brink of disaster.


Apart from that though.

[Stranger]

Let's not forget the inconsistencies in what are perceived as the best of arguments the miscorrect e.g use of the term emergence where what is meant and held is explanation completely in terms of the previous organisational level. The confusion of the terms consciousness and intelligence, the implicit assumption that there is no hard problem of consciousness, that the use of the word evolution hides a multitude of gaps and concommitant leaps of faith and the misplaced piety about claiming that scientism and materialism is healthier for the planet when it has been precisely scientific and technological developments that have wiped out much of nature and have brought us to the brink of disaster.

This appears to be little more than your own little fantasy version of the discussion. How about actually finding instances of these 'points' and saying exactly in what way you think they are wrong?

[Walt Zingmatilder]

This appears to be little more than your own little fantasy version of the discussion. How about actually finding instances of these 'points' and saying exactly in what way you think they are wrong?

They are a collection of points I have raised throughout the argument and are focussed on it....and I would add that some rarely answer the points I raise.

I think you missed my praise of the arguments at the end of the post although I am disappointed at the frequent use of the word evolution as a cover all.

[torridon]

Let's not forget the inconsistencies in what are perceived as the best of arguments e.g. the miscorrect use of the term emergence where what is meant and held is explanation completely in terms of the previous organisational level. The confusion of the terms consciousness and intelligence, the implicit assumption that there is no hard problem of consciousness, that the use of the word evolution hides a multitude of gaps and concommitant leaps of faith and the misplaced piety about claiming that scientism and materialism is healthier for the planet when it has been precisely scientific and technological developments that have wiped out much of nature and have brought us to the brink of disaster.


Apart from that though.

None of which makes a positive case for magical thinking.

[Walt Zingmatilder]

None of which makes a positive case for magical thinking.

But your response to criticism speaks volumes.

[Walt Zingmatilder]

None of which makes a positive case for magical thinking.

For a narrow reductionist and empiricist anything else constitutes 'magical thinking'.

[Stranger]

They are a collection of points I have raised throughout the argument and are focussed on it....and I would add that some rarely answer the points I raise.

I think you missed my praise of the arguments at the end of the post although I am disappointed at the frequent use of the word evolution as a cover all.

Actual examples are still missing.

[Walt Zingmatilder]

Actual examples are still missing.

The examples are in the thread.

In the meantime see if you assent to any of the following:

Emergent properties are completely explained in terms of the previous organisational level.

Consciousness and intelligence are the same thing when it comes down to it

There is no hard problem of consciousness


The word evolution explains consciousness.

Global warming and species extinction is mainly the fault of religion and not or hardly due to scientific and technological developments.

[Roses]

The examples are in the thread.

In the meantime see if you assent to any of the following:

Emergent properties are completely explained in terms of the previous organisational level.

Consciousness and intelligen ::)ce are the same thing when it comes down to it

There is no hard problem of consciousness


The word evolution explains consciousness.

Global warming and species extinction is mainly the fault of religion and not or hardly due to scientific and technological developments.

That is a first, I have never heard religion blamed for global warming before.

[Walt Zingmatilder]

That is a first, I have never heard religion blamed for global warming before.

Well here is the 'danger to nature' courtesy of Torridon:

None of that equates to humans being some sort of magical beings from another dimension, and to entertain such outlandish notions is unjustified, and ultimately dangerous.  With seven billion of us and counting we are having significant planetary scale impacts on other life and Earth systems.  We need to be honest and realistic about what we are and our impacts on others. The rest of Earth's life does not need seven billion humans living out their lives in some delusional bubble, detached from reality, believing themselves to be separate from nature. We need to take stock of what we are, start being honest and realistic before our delusions result in our catastrophic downfall.

I don't see science and technology at all being implicated here, rather it is religion.

[Alan Burns]

We need to take stock of what we are, start being honest and realistic before our delusions result in our catastrophic downfall.

And how can we possibly have the power to take steps to achieve this if all our conscious choices are apparently formed before we become aware of them? 

I would suggest that being honest should start with the admission that you have the freedom to consciously control your thoughts, words and actions.

[torridon]

And how can we possibly have the power to take steps to achieve this if all our conscious choices are apparently formed before we become aware of them? 

I would suggest that being honest should start with the admission that you have the freedom to consciously control your thoughts, words and actions.

Arriving at a decision is (usually) a process, and so is the construction of our stream of consciousness. At what point in that process a decision occurs is largely irrelevant in terms of moral responsibility, it is still 'you' making the choice, calling the shots.  The fact that consciousness is in essence a memory of our experience is a subtlety of mind that is of interest to the sciences of the mind but is not a relevant factor in our everyday life choices.  Exception to that, might be high speed situations, such as sports, where reaction times are an issue.

[torridon]

Well here is the 'danger to nature' courtesy of Torridon:

I don't see science and technology at all being implicated here, rather it is religion.

Well this is RE Christian board so why would you expect me to be taking issue with science and technology.  There would be space for that elsewhere.

It's not only religions that cause people to be unrealistic, I think we are all delusional to some or other extent, but many religions do actively encourage people into unevidenced beliefs, even making a virtue of it, ("it's my faith") and you don't need to be a genius to understand that if you come to believe that we are beings from some other realm, merely passing briefly through this world, then you are likely not going to have the same commitment to it as someone who believes this life and this world is the real deal, and the only deal and we aren't going to get resurrected or resuscitated into our 'real' home eventually.  Yes, I think these are dangerous ideas, essentially, and promoting them is doing a disservice to the broader realms of life.  If you have ever gotten ill and chosen to visit the GP rather than a witch doctor or similar, then you should understand my point.  There is usually danger in distancing yourself from evidence based reasoning.