Searching for GOD...

[bluehillside Retd.]

AB,

but the logic you espouse is apparently based on the cause and effect scenario evidenced in material science.
You seem unable to accept the evidence for a self determined spiritual cause for human freewill.

Presumably because there isn't any - or at least none that you've been able to produce here.

[Stranger]

but the logic you espouse is apparently based on the cause and effect scenario evidenced in material science.

See all the other times this has been explained to you and stop dishonestly pretending that it hasn't. If you disagree, argue against it, don't ignore it. Ignoring it is dishonest and rude.

You seem unable to accept the evidence for a self determined spiritual cause for human freewill self-contradictory magic.

FIFY

What evidence? Read #32441 before replying.

[Gordon]

but the logic you espouse is apparently based on the cause and effect scenario evidenced in material science.
You seem unable to accept the evidence for a self determined spiritual cause for human freewill.

I don't know whether to laugh or cry when I read tripe this like this from the guy who just the other day told us: 'I believe the soul exists in a spiritual dimension which is not part our material universe, and can initiate whatever actions are required within the time line of our physical brain activity in order to implement our conscious choice.'

If we replace ' the soul' with 'alien telepathy' and 'a spiritual' with 'another' we get: I believe alien telepathy exists in another dimension which is not part our material universe, and can initiate whatever actions are required within the time line of our physical brain activity in order to implement our conscious choice. - which makes as much sense as your original.

[Enki]

Where does this freedom to think come from?
What is driving your thought patterns?
What is driving my thought patterns?
Do you or I have control?
Or are we just predetermined by the unavoidable physical reactions involved in the electrochemical activity in our brain cells?

For heaven's sake, Alan. Why do you repeat yourself so much? You've already asked much the same questions before. E.g. Your post 32245, to which you had repies from myself(Post 32256), as well as others. Do you think that simply be repeating yourself, people are going to change their minds? It seems to me that if you really want to influence people's thinking you should at least try to engage with responses by putting up some form of coherent arguments which can encapsulate your point of view. It seems to me that this is something that you find very difficult to do, unfortunately, and leads to such forlorn messages as

I must confess that I am at a loss to know how anyone could be in denial that they have this amazing gift of freewill.

. Such a heartfelt response doesn't even begin to connect with those who don't see 'free will' as you see it, and don't even accept that it is some sort of 'gift'.

[bluehillside Retd.]

Hi enki,

It seems to me that if you really want to influence people's thinking you should at least try to engage with responses by putting up some form of coherent arguments which can encapsulate your point of view.

He never will. I was trying to think a while back of a circumstance in which I was so heavily invested in a belief that I would never dare address arguments that could falsify it because I was terrified of the possible consequences if I did. I can't think of one (I'd prefer to be disappointedly right than contentedly wrong, but that's just me) but how else are we to explain AB's unremitting ignoring of the arguments against him and his endless repetition of the same mistakes ad nauseam?     

[Walt Zingmatilder]

You haven't explained the gravity of those actions.

The gravity is that some actions point to or lead to a need for salvation and these are three examples which many are personally acquainted with often as perpetrators.


If you doubt the gravity of speaking against same sex marriage just look at the numerous threads decrying it as a moral evil.

[Walt Zingmatilder]

Presumably there is something on this that we can review so as to understand the argument you refer to?

Yes you could review the Lembit opik show for last week BBC Radio Kent radio I player.
Or you could review the idea itself rather than avoiding doing so.

[Walt Zingmatilder]

 
Who hold this view?

I think the grounds for dispensing with the notion of 'salvation', as it applies to Jesus, are primarily because it is incoherent and isn't a serious proposition.

One or two thinks positively asserted here. Please direct me to your/a justification or I fear no attempt will be made to do so.

[Gordon]

Yes you could review the Lembit opik show for last week BBC Radio Kent radio I player.
Or you could review the idea itself rather than avoiding doing so.

Since you introduced Mr Opik's views I think you should provide the details, or a fair summary of his position.

As I'm sure you appreciate few of us just north of Glasgow tune into Radio Kent on a regular basis (in fact not at all, since Kent is somewhat removed from us here in civilisation in terms of radio signal strength).

[bluehillside Retd.]

One or two thinks positively asserted here. Please direct me to your/a justification or I fear no attempt will be made to do so.

You gotta speed it up
And then you gotta slow it down
'Cause if you believe that our love can hit the top
You gotta play around
But soon you will find that there comes a time...

...for making your wind up

[Gordon]

One or two thinks positively asserted here. Please direct me to your/a justification or I fear no attempt will be made to do so.

How about you explain the mechanism behind 'salvation', and since you raised it you can justify it.

You can start by explaining to me how a long dead middle-eastern chap has any influence on me in current times, some two millennia after his demise. Or you can just stop being silly.

[bluehillside Retd.]

Gordon,

Since you introduced Mr Opik's views I think you should provide the details, or a fair summary of his position.

Be fair though - possibly Mr Opik is a hitherto unknown deep philosophical thinker, or maybe even a theologian who actually has something coherent to say! I've scoured all the usual reference sources with no luck so far though, so perhaps old Fol-de-Roll could point us to his more accessible published works? 

[Walt Zingmatilder]

You can start by explaining to me how a long dead middle-eastern chap has any influence on me in current times,

I don't know....why are you dedicating hour after hour, day after day, year after year actively campaigning against a supposed long dead middle eastern chap. If that isn't 'influence' i'd like to see what is.

[Gordon]

Gordon,

Be fair though - possibly Mr Opik is a hitherto unknown deep philosophical thinker, or maybe even a theologian who actually has something coherent to say! I've scoured all the usual reference sources with no luck so far though, so perhaps old Fol-de-Roll could point us to his more accessible published works?

I'm sure Vlad will confirm the relevance of Mr Opik's views, and that Mr Opik being a failed politician with an interest in self-promotion will in no way whatsoever reduce the importance of My Opik's philosophical views (as expounded on local radio in some far-flung part of the UK).

[Gordon]

I don't know....why are you dedicating hour after hour, day after day, year after year actively campaigning against a supposed long dead middle eastern chap. If that isn't 'influence' i'd like to see what is.

The odd minute perhaps, and just here in R&E, since here in R&E is the only place I encounter such nonsense as 'salvation': aside from that there are motorbikes  (well just one) to be ridden, guitars (more than one) to be played - and other stuff too!

[bluehillside Retd.]

Gordon,

I'm sure Vlad will confirm the relevance of Mr Opik's views, and that Mr Opik being a failed politician with an interest in self-promotion will in no way whatsoever reduce the importance of My Opik's philosophical views (as expounded on local radio in some far-flung part of the UK).

Again to be fair though, it's probably the closest he's ever come to an actual citation.

Sort of.

Kind of.

OK, I'm struggling now. Sorry - I did try.

[Enki]

The gravity is that some actions point to or lead to a need for salvation and these are three examples which many are personally acquainted with often as perpetrators.


If you doubt the gravity of speaking against same sex marriage just look at the numerous threads decrying it as a moral evil.

I see no need of salvation whatsoever, assuming of course that you are using in its theological sense, because it presupposes the presence of 'sin', again in the theological sense.

I can't see the relevance of any of your three examples to a need for salvation at all, unless it be in your head that you think they should need it. And that would simply be your own personal viewpoint of course.

[bluehillside Retd.]

Gordon,

The odd minute perhaps, and just here in R&E, since here in R&E is the only place I encounter such nonsense as 'salvation': aside from that there are motorbikes  (well just one) to be ridden, guitars (more than one) to be played - and other stuff too!

Actually it was just old Fol-De-Roll conflating the object of religious claims (dull) with the arguments attempted to validate them (sometimes quite interesting, if only to see why they're hopeless). It's an old switcheroo.

[Gordon]

Gordon,

Actually it was just old Fol-De-Roll conflating the object of religious claims (dull) with the arguments attempted to validate them (sometimes quite interesting, if only to see why they're hopeless). It's an old switcheroo.

Indeed, but then he perhaps didn't appreciate the importance of motorcycles and guitars: I'm assuming here (and I may be wrong) that he's been actively motorcycle-dodging and guitar-dodging, though how how he gets though life without either of these essentials beats me.

[Walt Zingmatilder]

The odd minute perhaps, and just here in R&E, since here in R&E is the only place I encounter such nonsense as 'salvation': aside from that there are motorbikes  (well just one) to be ridden, guitars (more than one) to be played - and other stuff too!

Motorbikes?...….well, we know what they are a substitute for. Guitars?....Your post gets more ghastly.

Still I'm sure there are Christians with guitars, Bikes and other stuff and of course, Salvation too.

[Walt Zingmatilder]

I'm sure Vlad will confirm the relevance of Mr Opik's views, and that Mr Opik being a failed politician

Every political career ends in failure or so they say.

Whether they are Mr Opik's views I know not since radio presenters I suppose have to put forward a range of arguments.

[Walt Zingmatilder]

I see no need of salvation whatsoever, assuming of course that you are using in its theological sense, because it presupposes the presence of 'sin', again in the theological sense.

I can't see the relevance of any of your three examples to a need for salvation at all, unless it be in your head that you think they should need it. And that would simply be your own personal viewpoint of course.

Some people don't see the need for salvation and some people don't yet see the need for salvation.One meaning of salvation of course is wholeness and so each thing which we do which diminishes our full potential militates against wholeness.

I think we could also view these things of symptomatic of something else such as an attitude.


Are all personal viewpoints wrong?

[Walt Zingmatilder]

The odd minute perhaps,

The odd minute??!!!!Crikey something must be going on if you are losing all track of time.

Losing track of time, they say is a feature of exstatic experience.


You lucky bleeder.

[Alan Burns]

See all the other times this has been explained to you .......

Can no one see the irony in posters using their God given freedom to try to explain that such freedom can't possibly exist?

[BeRational]

Can no one see the irony in posters using their God given freedom to try to explain that such freedom can't possibly exist?

They are not doing that.

Why can you not see that as far as we know, there is no god or gods.