Author Topic: Searching for GOD...  (Read 3892034 times)

Alan Burns

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #33800 on: December 21, 2018, 08:35:32 PM »
We do not have freedom in the way you keep on insisting because it's logically incoherent. Just asserting it over and over isn't in the least bit convincing.

So why the endless repetition of hopelessly flawed "arguments", then? You are presenting your faith as being incoherent and illogical, is that what you intend?
I have faith in the ability of human beings to consciously choose their own thoughts, words and actions.

Your position appears to be that whatever we consciously think, say or do has already been predetermined by past events before we are consciously aware of it.  So the logical conclusion to this is that we can take no personal credit or responsibility for whatever we do or say.  This makes a nonsense of any human thinking.  All philosophers could have had no personal input in any of their works.  It was all down to physically predetermined reactions!

As you say - our thoughts are reactions!  ???
« Last Edit: December 21, 2018, 08:44:05 PM by Alan Burns »
The truth will set you free  - John 8:32
Truth is not an abstraction, but a person - Edith Stein
Free will, though it makes evil possible, is also the only thing that makes possible any love or goodness or joy worth having. - CS Lewis
Joy is the Gigantic Secret of Christians - GK Chesterton

torridon

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #33801 on: December 21, 2018, 09:34:38 PM »
I have faith in the ability of human beings to consciously choose their own thoughts, words and actions.

Your position appears to be that whatever we consciously think, say or do has already been predetermined by past events before we are consciously aware of it.  So the logical conclusion to this is that we can take no personal credit or responsibility for whatever we do or say.  This makes a nonsense of any human thinking.  All philosophers could have had no personal input in any of their works.  It was all down to physically predetermined reactions!

As you say - our thoughts are reactions!  ???

We can't say 'predetermined' as that allows no space for any randomness that might be introduced and understanding how classical physics emerges from quantum fields is still a work in progress.  It is better to observe that actions in the present have consequences in the future and the current moment is a consequence of the past.  Thus, it is reasonable to assume that there are reasons that give rise to our thinking.  Thoughts that arise for no reason whatsoever would be random, by definition.
« Last Edit: December 21, 2018, 09:37:32 PM by torridon »

Sriram

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #33802 on: December 22, 2018, 05:37:54 AM »
torridon,

By emphasizing determinism to this extent aren't you overlooking the probabilistic nature of reality as in QM? 

torridon

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #33803 on: December 22, 2018, 07:38:46 AM »
torridon,

By emphasizing determinism to this extent aren't you overlooking the probabilistic nature of reality as in QM?

It is the principal of adequate determinism. Whatever probabalistic or random variation there might be at the quantum level, these variations average out sufficiently such that at the level of atomic matter (and hence chemistry, hence biology, hence ecosystems) we can consider classical reality to be 100% deterministic for all practical computational considerations.  Life is possible because interactions at the level of atomic matter are sufficiently predictable.

http://www.informationphilosopher.com/freedom/adequate_determinism.html

Stranger

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #33804 on: December 22, 2018, 07:48:07 AM »
I have faith in the ability of human beings to consciously choose their own thoughts, words and actions.

We have the freedom to do as we wish. Your idea of "freedom" is a nonsense; as impossible as a square circle. There's no point in having faith in it because it isn't even a self-consistent idea.

Your position appears to be that whatever we consciously think, say or do has already been predetermined by past events before we are consciously aware of it.  So the logical conclusion to this is that we can take no personal credit or responsibility for whatever we do or say.  This makes a nonsense of any human thinking.  All philosophers could have had no personal input in any of their works.  It was all down to physically predetermined reactions!

Not only is that an argumentum ad consequentiam, it also appears to be a rather bizarre argument that if our minds work in a self-consistent, logical way, then we don't really exist.

As you say - our thoughts are reactions!  ???

Of course they are.
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Aruntraveller

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #33805 on: December 22, 2018, 10:09:05 AM »
To use bizarreness as an argument is nonsensical. It just means "I don't like it"

No it doesn't. I think some of your posts are bizarre. I still quite like them.
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jeremyp

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #33806 on: December 22, 2018, 10:17:33 AM »
torridon,

By emphasizing determinism to this extent aren't you overlooking the probabilistic nature of reality as in QM?
The equations of quantum mechanics are completely deterministic. The apparent randomness comes from the interpretation you choose to use e.g. the Copenhagen interpretation.

Even in the Copenhagen interpretation Torridon’s point holds. Furthermore, if you are arguing for free will, the randomness of the Copenhagen interpretation does not help you. If you had a whole litter of Schrödinger’s Cats and you made all of your decisions based on opening one of the boxes and choosing your action based on whether the cat inside is alive or dead, nobody would describe that as free will.
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Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #33807 on: December 22, 2018, 11:55:19 AM »
No it doesn't. I think some of your posts are bizarre. I still quite like them.
Like yours too.

Enki

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #33808 on: December 22, 2018, 12:01:41 PM »
torridon,

By emphasizing determinism to this extent aren't you overlooking the probabilistic nature of reality as in QM?

As Torridon has said random quantum effects at the microscopic level do not undermine the macroscopic ideas in classical physics. One of the main ways in which quantum effects are lost(the collapse of the wave function) is suggested to be by decoherence.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quantum_decoherence
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bluehillside Retd.

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #33809 on: December 22, 2018, 12:04:13 PM »
AB,

Quote
I have faith in...

What makes you think that what you personally have faith in has significance for anyone else? That the thing is which you have faith is entirely irrational by the way is a secondary matter. 
« Last Edit: December 22, 2018, 12:39:59 PM by bluehillside Retd. »
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Alan Burns

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #33810 on: December 22, 2018, 01:58:24 PM »
AB,

What makes you think that what you personally have faith in has significance for anyone else? That the thing is which you have faith is entirely irrational by the way is a secondary matter.
My faith is entirely rational because it is totally compatible with the reality of my existence and my freedom to choose my own thoughts, words and actions.

What is irrational is your conclusion that all your thoughts are predetermined before you are consciously aware of them.  Perhaps this conclusion is inevitable if you refuse to accept the reality and power of your spiritual nature.  But it is a conclusion which renders any arguments you make to be predetermined without your conscious input.

Any argument you personally put forward requires the freedom to consciously drive your own thoughts.  You are not a machine.
The truth will set you free  - John 8:32
Truth is not an abstraction, but a person - Edith Stein
Free will, though it makes evil possible, is also the only thing that makes possible any love or goodness or joy worth having. - CS Lewis
Joy is the Gigantic Secret of Christians - GK Chesterton

Sriram

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #33811 on: December 22, 2018, 02:30:56 PM »
It is the principal of adequate determinism. Whatever probabalistic or random variation there might be at the quantum level, these variations average out sufficiently such that at the level of atomic matter (and hence chemistry, hence biology, hence ecosystems) we can consider classical reality to be 100% deterministic for all practical computational considerations.  Life is possible because interactions at the level of atomic matter are sufficiently predictable.

http://www.informationphilosopher.com/freedom/adequate_determinism.html


Strangely, the article linked by you says....

"Adequate determinism is one of the critical requirements for free will."

Could you explain that?!!

Stranger

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #33812 on: December 22, 2018, 02:37:22 PM »
My faith is entirely rational because it is totally compatible with the reality of my existence and my freedom to choose my own thoughts, words and actions.

Except that it's self-contradictory, so cannot possibly be either rational or compatible with reality. Even if it wasn't a contradiction, just being compatible with reality, doesn't make it rational.

Being able to choose your words and actions is fully compatible with determinism ("predetermined").

What is irrational is your conclusion that all your thoughts are predetermined before you are consciously aware of them.

Why is it irrational? You don't seem to be able to grasp the difference between reasoning and baseless assertion.

But it is a conclusion which renders any arguments you make to be predetermined without your conscious input.

More clear evidence that you aren't reading and understanding the arguments put to you. The consciousness is part of the process that determines actions, so it's a misrepresentation of the argument to claim there is no conscious input.

Any argument you personally put forward requires the freedom to consciously drive your own thoughts.

Which is fully compatible with determinism.
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bluehillside Retd.

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #33813 on: December 22, 2018, 02:52:47 PM »
AB,

Quote
My faith is entirely rational because it is totally compatible with the reality of my existence and my freedom to choose my own thoughts, words and actions.

That’s a lot of wrongness to put into one sentence. If your faith was “entirely rational” there’d be no need for faith – you could just present the argument rationally and no-one could argue with it. You can’t do that though, so you need the magic dust of “faith” to get you from guessing to certainty.

As for your reality, yes we know that that’s your reality. Indeed at a superficial level that’s the reality for most people. The problem though is that explaining that reality requires something more than superficial thinking, and when some of us do that we can see that your ontology unravels like a cheap suit. 

Quote
What is irrational is your conclusion that all your thoughts are predetermined before you are consciously aware of them.

Except it isn’t irrational at all if you actually think about it more deeply than the shallowness you espouse here and so realise that your alternative is logically impossible.

Quote
Perhaps this conclusion is inevitable if you refuse to accept the reality and power of your spiritual nature.

But we know don’t we that “spiritual” is just the word you use when you actually mean “it’s magic innit” but you’re too embarrassed to say so. You must have this piece of unqualified dishonesty though to get you off the hook of determined vs random.
 
Quote
But it is a conclusion which renders any arguments you make to be predetermined without your conscious input.

Argumentum ad consequentiam (yet again), and that does not change a thing about the workaday reality of our experience even though relying on it for deeper explanations for the experience collapses immediately you bother to think about it. You remember don’t you the question I asked you over and over again about how you’d make a logical connection between the experience of something and the explanation for it, only for you to run away from it over and over again?

You do remember that right?

Quote
Any argument you personally put forward requires the freedom to consciously drive your own thoughts.  You are not a machine.

Wrong as wrong can be for reasons you seem entirely unable or unwilling even to think about.
« Last Edit: December 22, 2018, 03:03:31 PM by bluehillside Retd. »
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wigginhall

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #33814 on: December 22, 2018, 03:08:18 PM »
"My faith is entirely rational", that just about sums up Alan's position.   Magic is quite logical really, if you squint a bit, and wear your upside down goggles.
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bluehillside Retd.

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #33815 on: December 22, 2018, 03:33:59 PM »
Wiggs,

Quote
"My faith is entirely rational", that just about sums up Alan's position.   Magic is quite logical really, if you squint a bit, and wear your upside down goggles.

Yes, it's quite funny really - albeit unintentionally so. He seems to be oblivious to the problem that faith is all that's left to validate your beliefs when the rationality has run out.   
"Don't make me come down there."

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Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #33816 on: December 22, 2018, 03:49:35 PM »
Wiggs,

Yes, it's quite funny really - albeit unintentionally so. He seems to be oblivious to the problem that faith is all that's left to validate your beliefs when the rationality has run out.
Hang on. Given that Hillside and I see eye to eye on peer reviewed experimental data, Leprechauns, ant Gods, unicorns,etc. I make that that for Hillside rationality equals atheism.

Stranger

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #33817 on: December 22, 2018, 04:23:44 PM »
Hang on. Given that Hillside and I see eye to eye on peer reviewed experimental data, Leprechauns, ant Gods, unicorns,etc. I make that that for Hillside rationality equals atheism.

It's not about what you believe, it's about how you arrive at your beliefs.
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bluehillside Retd.

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #33818 on: December 22, 2018, 04:32:09 PM »
Stranger,

Quote
It's not about what you believe, it's about how you arrive at your beliefs.

He knows that already - it's been explained to him countless times.
"Don't make me come down there."

God

Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #33819 on: December 22, 2018, 05:28:33 PM »
It's not about what you believe, it's about how you arrive at your beliefs.
I would be most interested in hearing why Hillside believes the world to be leprechaun free since it might go some way to explain his talk about arguments for leprechauns etc.

So far on that we have Hillside not believing in Leprechauns because they are like God and vice versa.
It might be helpful for him to state what his objections to Leprechauns actually are.

Having said that I am not prepared to part with cash for his insights.



bluehillside Retd.

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #33820 on: December 22, 2018, 05:44:00 PM »
Is it me or is Vlad's trolling getting even more unhinged?
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Stranger

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #33821 on: December 22, 2018, 05:54:21 PM »
I would be most interested in hearing why Hillside believes the world to be leprechaun free since it might go some way to explain his talk about arguments for leprechauns etc.

So far on that we have Hillside not believing in Leprechauns because they are like God and vice versa.
It might be helpful for him to state what his objections to Leprechauns actually are.

Why does this stuff always confuse you so much, Vlad? It really isn't rocket science...

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bluehillside Retd.

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #33822 on: December 22, 2018, 06:02:37 PM »
Stranger,

Quote
Why does this stuff always confuse you so much, Vlad? It really isn't rocket science...

I'm fairly sure it's deliberate, but I've never been completely sure. No idea what he hopes to get from it though - attention maybe?   
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Alan Burns

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #33823 on: December 23, 2018, 10:16:37 AM »
..... actions in the present have consequences in the future and the current moment is a consequence of the past.  Thus, it is reasonable to assume that there are reasons that give rise to our thinking.  Thoughts that arise for no reason whatsoever would be random, by definition.
But can you not see that the current moment is a consequence not just of the past, but the present.  Human conscious awareness is not just a cog in the deterministic machine.  Our awareness perceives the content of millions of brain cells in addition to generating complex thoughts at any present moment.  And our ability to act on all this information is not just a mechanistic reaction, but a consciously chosen action.  Yes there are reasons for our choice - reasons generated from within the present state of our conscious mind - not from inevitable cause and effect from the past.  This interaction in the present enables the obvious difference between choice and reaction.
The truth will set you free  - John 8:32
Truth is not an abstraction, but a person - Edith Stein
Free will, though it makes evil possible, is also the only thing that makes possible any love or goodness or joy worth having. - CS Lewis
Joy is the Gigantic Secret of Christians - GK Chesterton

Stranger

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #33824 on: December 23, 2018, 10:28:37 AM »
But can you not see that the current moment is a consequence not just of the past, but the present.

For about the tenth time: what do you think "the present" is?

Colloquially it's irrelevant and technically it doesn't exist, so what do you mean?

Human conscious awareness is not just a cog in the deterministic machine.  Our awareness perceives the content of millions of brain cells in addition to generating complex thoughts at any present moment.  And our ability to act on all this information is not just a mechanistic reaction, but a consciously chosen action.  Yes there are reasons for our choice - reasons generated from within the present state of our conscious mind - not from inevitable cause and effect from the past.  This interaction in the present enables the obvious difference between choice and reaction.

You're just repeating your little self-contradictory fantasy, Alan. Where is the reasoning or evidence, and where is your answer to the logic that if something isn't determined by the past, it must be random?
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