Searching for GOD...

[torridon]

Just imagine this scenario:

you come to the end of your life here on earth.
You become acutely aware of a reality you never believed existed.
You are aware of a presence which can see into the depths of your soul.
You become aware of every significant choice you have made in your life, together with your reasons for making those choices.

What would you feel?

Such a scenario is based upon a common theme witnessed by people who have encountered a near death experience

We are all free to have personal beliefs, but there is only one truth.

And how do we try to dismiss spurious personal beliefs so that we can get closer to objective truth ? We use structured methods, which is basically the rationale of science. We have learned the hard way not to trust anecdotal personal testimony as in the above; it is the weakest form of evidence.

[Sebastian Toe]

Just imagine this scenario:

you come to the end of your life here on earth.
You become acutely aware of a reality you never believed existed.
You are aware of a presence which can see into the depths of your soul.
You become aware of every significant choice you have made in your life, together with your reasons for making those choices.
.......and it is as clear as can possibly be,  that the presence is NOT the god that you had been worshipping for all of your earthly life.
It was something else entirely.



What would you feel?

[Roses]

I wonder how people like AB would feel if just before they died they had an experience, which convinced them that they had been wrong to believe a god and afterlife exists, and they had wasted many years trying to convince others they did?

[wigginhall]

"There is only one truth", actually, I did a count the other day, and I found 47.   Example, when slugs make love, it's quite squishy, true.  The leopard slug has a blue penis, true. 

[Dicky Underpants]

I wonder how people like AB would feel if just before they died they had an experience, which convinced them that they had been wrong to believe a god and afterlife exists, and they had wasted many years trying to convince others they did?

"Near death experiences" tend not to be conclusive either way, unless you are very disposed to be convinced.

Take the following from the life-long atheist philosopher, A. J. Ayer:

www.philosopher.eu/others-writings/a-j-ayer-what-i-saw-when-i-was-dead/

Ayer was honest enough to some up his attitude to his experience thus:

My recent experiences have slightly weakened my conviction that my genuine death, which is due fairly soon, will be the end of me, though I continue to hope that it will be. They have not weakened my conviction that there is no god.

I suspect that Alan and Sriram would be less rigorous in their attitude had they had such an experience.

[Alan Burns]

"Near death experiences" tend not to be conclusive either way, unless you are very disposed to be convinced.

Take the following from the life-long atheist philosopher, A. J. Ayer:

www.philosopher.eu/others-writings/a-j-ayer-what-i-saw-when-i-was-dead/

Ayer was honest enough to some up his attitude to his experience thus:


I suspect that Alan and Sriram would be less rigorous in their attitude had they had such an experience.

I agree that witnesses to near death experiences alone offer no conclusive evidence.  My earlier post was simply a question about how you would feel if you yourself had a near death experience which entailed your entire life passing before you, together with an awareness of another presence.  My faith is based upon many aspects of my life and other people's lives, and an acute awareness of my own spiritual nature which defies any physical explanation.  I am quite certain that my faith in God and my own spiritual qualities will remain with me for the rest of my life.

I can imagine nothing which could ever shake this faith, because without the freedom given to me through the spiritual power of my soul, I would be incapable of imagining anything.

[BeRational]

I agree that witnesses to near death experiences alone offer no conclusive evidence.  My earlier post was simply a question about how you would feel if you yourself had a near death experience which entailed your entire life passing before you, together with an awareness of another presence.  My faith is based upon many aspects of my life and other people's lives, and an acute awareness of my own spiritual nature which defies any physical explanation.  I am quite certain that my faith in God and my own spiritual qualities will remain with me for the rest of my life.

I can imagine nothing which could ever shake this faith, because without the freedom given to me through the spiritual power of my soul, I would be incapable of imagining anything.

I have no faith and cannot understand what it is like to have it, and then to make it unassailable to reason seems bonkers to me.

[bluehillside Retd.]

AB,

I agree that witnesses to near death experiences alone offer no conclusive evidence.  My earlier post was simply a question about how you would feel if you yourself had a near death experience which entailed your entire life passing before you, together with an awareness of another presence.

Well, I would feel that to be a remarkable finding and would then try to work out what had caused it. I wouldn’t though stop at the shallowness of just assuming that there was in fact “another presence” rather than an experience that just felt as if there was.   

My faith is based upon many aspects of my life and other people's lives, and an acute awareness of my own spiritual nature which defies any physical explanation.

No it doesn’t. It just defies your ability to grasp what physical explanation(s) there could be.

I am quite certain that my faith in God and my own spiritual qualities will remain with me for the rest of my life.

Given your imperviousness to the reasoning that falsifies the arguments you attempt to validate your faith, that’s probably true.

I can imagine nothing which could ever shake this faith, because without the freedom given to me through the spiritual power of my soul, I would be incapable of imagining anything.

And right on cue that’s one of those false arguments that no amount of falsifying reasoning will ever be allowed to remove such is your investment in your personal faith beliefs.   

[torridon]

I can imagine nothing which could ever shake this faith, because without the freedom given to me through the spiritual power of my soul, I would be incapable of imagining anything.

No evidence for that.  With or without souls, we can all imagine, because we have minds; that is what minds do.

[Sriram]

No evidence for that.  With or without souls, we can all imagine, because we have minds; that is what minds do.

Evidence, evidence...!!!

Try this

https://tsriramrao.wordpress.com/2019/01/13/evidence/

[torridon]

Evidence, evidence...!!!

Try this

https://tsriramrao.wordpress.com/2019/01/13/evidence/

The responsibility to justify a claim lies with the maker of the claim.  Alan made the assertion that a soul is necessary for imagination, so the burden of justification lies with him.

[Roses]

I agree that witnesses to near death experiences alone offer no conclusive evidence.  My earlier post was simply a question about how you would feel if you yourself had a near death experience which entailed your entire life passing before you, together with an awareness of another presence.  My faith is based upon many aspects of my life and other people's lives, and an acute awareness of my own spiritual nature which defies any physical explanation.  I am quite certain that my faith in God and my own spiritual qualities will remain with me for the rest of my life.

I can imagine nothing which could ever shake this faith, because without the freedom given to me through the spiritual power of my soul, I would be incapable of imagining anything.

Surely it would shake your faith if, for instance, it could be proved beyond all doubt how the universe came into being, and that no god had been involved?   

[Enki]

......My faith is based upon many aspects of my life and other people's lives, and an acute awareness of my own spiritual nature which defies any physical explanation.  I am quite certain that my faith in God and my own spiritual qualities will remain with me for the rest of my life.

I can imagine nothing which could ever shake this faith, because without the freedom given to me through the spiritual power of my soul, I would be incapable of imagining anything.

Just because you like to emphasise your so called 'spiritual' qualities doesn't mean that you can simply co-opt the word 'spiritual' for your own personal use.

As Susan said very near the beginning of this mammoth thread:

Why do so many people find it remarkable that atheists have a spiritual, aesthetic side to their nature? Being spiritual is not exclusive to non-atheists.

Post 472

[SusanDoris]

Just because you like to emphasise your so called 'spiritual' qualities doesn't mean that you can simply co-opt the word 'spiritual' for your own personal use.

As Susan said very near the beginning of this mammoth thread:

Post 472

Goodness me! That's clever to find anything all those posts ago!!

And thank you - on the GH forum, I daily deal with claims of spirits and the religious interpretations of spiritual and spirituality; so I shall quote myself there later, acknowledging that I did not find it myself!

[Enki]

Evidence, evidence...!!!

Try this

https://tsriramrao.wordpress.com/2019/01/13/evidence/

Having read your linked article on evidence, Sriram, I would suggest that you might read this.

https://www.thebattles.net/rationality/Weighed1.1.pdf

Although it was written specifically to counter two JW pamphlets entitled 'Was Life created' and 'The Origin Of Life - Five Questions Worth Asking' I would point you to 1.2 The Nature Of Science on Page 1 through to 1.5 The Scientific community which finishes on page 5.

I find this to be is an extremely lucid and well balanced exposition of science, including its limitations, and why the scientific method has proved so valuable. I would not hesitate to recommend it to anyone who would like to understand what science is all about.

[Alan Burns]

Surely it would shake your faith if, for instance, it could be proved beyond all doubt how the universe came into being, and that no god had been involved?

But it will never happen, because there is a bit of God in each one of us which science alone will never discover.  And it is easily verified every day by us exercising our freedom to choose what we do, think or say.  A freedom which nature alone can never give.  There have been numerous attempts on this thread to try to explain away this freedom as being a logical impossibility, but without this freedom, such attempts at explanation would be impossible in a world where every conscious choice we make has already been predetermined before we make it.

I have to ask what can motivate people to try to convince themselves that their freedom to choose is not a reality, and that every choice they make has already been predetermined before they are consciously aware of it?  Could they be afraid of the implications?

Our God given freedom is an amazing gift which must have been given to us for a reason.  Our freedom enables us to discern purpose and meaning in our lives.  It enables us to seek the truth.  A truth which indeed sets us free.

[BeRational]

But it will never happen, because there is a bit of God in each one of us which science alone will never discover.  And it is easily verified every day by us exercising our freedom to choose what we do, think or say.  A freedom which nature alone can never give.  There have been numerous attempts on this thread to try to explain away this freedom as being a logical impossibility, but without this freedom, such attempts at explanation would be impossible in a world where every conscious choice we make has already been predetermined before we make it.

I have to ask what can motivate people to try to convince themselves that their freedom to choose is not a reality, and that every choice they make has already been predetermined before they are consciously aware of it?  Could they be afraid of the implications?

Our God given freedom is an amazing gift which must have been given to us for a reason.  Our freedom enables us to discern purpose and meaning in our lives.  It enables us to seek the truth.  A truth which indeed sets us free.

Fact free assertions.

Repetition.

[Stranger]

Just dropped back in to find you still spouting nonsense...

But it will never happen, because there is a bit of God in each one of us which science alone will never discover ...  A freedom which nature alone can never give.

Evidence-free and logic-free assertions.

And it is easily verified every day by us exercising our freedom to choose what we do, think or say..

It is simply untrue that it can be verified in that way because you (or anybody else) doing exactly what they want does not verify that it wasn't (pre)determined (or involved randomness). What do you find so hard about that?

How do you think choosing what to do verifies your self-contradictory version of freedom? Where is the actual reasoning?

There have been numerous attempts on this thread to try to explain away this freedom as being a logical impossibility...

You mean the arguments you've never even attempted to directly refute?

...but without this freedom, such attempts at explanation would be impossible in a world where every conscious choice we make has already been predetermined before we make it.

Again, as this stands, it's just another unsupported assertion. Show your working.

[bluehillside Retd.]

AB,

But it will never happen, because there is a bit of God in each one of us which science alone will never discover.  And it is easily verified every day by us exercising our freedom to choose what we do, think or say.  A freedom which nature alone can never give.  There have been numerous attempts on this thread to try to explain away this freedom as being a logical impossibility, but without this freedom, such attempts at explanation would be impossible in a world where every conscious choice we make has already been predetermined before we make it.

I have to ask what can motivate people to try to convince themselves that their freedom to choose is not a reality, and that every choice they make has already been predetermined before they are consciously aware of it?  Could they be afraid of the implications?

Our God given freedom is an amazing gift which must have been given to us for a reason.  Our freedom enables us to discern purpose and meaning in our lives.  It enables us to seek the truth.  A truth which indeed sets us free.

1. God is true because god is true.

2. Repeat endlessly.

[Enki]

But it will never happen, because there is a bit of God in each one of us which science alone will never discover.  And it is easily verified every day by us exercising our freedom to choose what we do, think or say.  A freedom which nature alone can never give.  There have been numerous attempts on this thread to try to explain away this freedom as being a logical impossibility, but without this freedom, such attempts at explanation would be impossible in a world where every conscious choice we make has already been predetermined before we make it.

You are quite right, I exercise my freedom to choose every day. I see no reason at all to think that that this isn't the result of the natural workings of my brain.  As Wiki say:

Freedom of choice describes an individual's opportunity and autonomy to perform an action selected from at least two available options, unconstrained by external parties

I see no reason why the idea of any god should be even involved.

I have to ask what can motivate people to try to convince themselves that their freedom to choose is not a reality, and that every choice they make has already been predetermined before they are consciously aware of it?  Could they be afraid of the implications?

I do see my freedom of choice as a reality. However, I also see that my choices are made as a result of a deterministic system. Why on earth should I be afraid of the implications? What a strange thing to say!

Our God given freedom is an amazing gift which must have been given to us for a reason.  Our freedom enables us to discern purpose and meaning in our lives.  It enables us to seek the truth.  A truth which indeed sets us free.

You are quite entitled to your point of view. However my ideas of meaning and purpose in my life do not depend on the idea of there being a god or even believing in a god. Not sure what you mean by 'truth' since there are many possible 'truths'. Funnily enough, I see you as a person who is much less free than me.  You seem to be so hidebound by your faith that your numerous attempts at trying to explain why you think that your idea of free will is a gift from God quickly descend into assertion and meaningless statements of a faith position, whilst ignoring any argument that needs a rational or logical response. I suppose it's rather sad really but it is no more than I would expect from you.

[Sebastian Toe]

But it will never happen,

Are you unable to use your imagination?
Are you a robot?

[torridon]

Our God given freedom is an amazing gift which must have been given to us for a reason.  Our freedom enables us to discern purpose and meaning in our lives.  It enables us to seek the truth.  A truth which indeed sets us free.

I can choose between tea and coffee; I can choose who to have as friends, which car to buy, which job to apply for.  A chimp chooses which piece of fruit to go for, which troupe members to form alliances with, when to defend, when to run away.  This is why brains evolved, to make choices; no magic required.

[torridon]

I have to ask what can motivate people to try to convince themselves that their freedom to choose is not a reality, and that every choice they make has already been predetermined before they are consciously aware of it?  Could they be afraid of the implications?

I doubt it.  This has been answered before, go read the posts; mindless repetition is an ignorant strategy, far better is to actually engage with others.

[Alan Burns]

Are you unable to use your imagination?
Are you a robot?

Of course I can use my imagination.
Without my God given freedom to perceive and drive my own thought processes, my imagination could not possibly work the way it does.
What do you discern to be the driver your imagination?

[Alan Burns]

I can choose between tea and coffee; I can choose who to have as friends, which car to buy, which job to apply for.  A chimp chooses which piece of fruit to go for, which troupe members to form alliances with, when to defend, when to run away.  This is why brains evolved, to make choices; no magic required.

Once more you seem unable to distinguish between consciously driven choices and instinctive reactions.

The process of evolution would deliver the instinctive reactions needed to enhance survival.
But there is no remit in the evolutionary process to facilitate our conscious freedom to choose rather than just react.