Searching for GOD...

[torridon]

I approve of our God given freedom.
How people choose to use this gift of freedom is up to their own conscience.
The New Testament advises how we can use our freedom for the good of all, but God will not force us - otherwise there would be no freedom.

So freedom to abuse trumps the right to be free from abuse.  Not sure many other people would share that moral stance.

[BeRational]

I approve of our God given freedom.
How people choose to use this gift of freedom is up to their own conscience.
The New Testament advises how we can use our freedom for the good of all, but God will not force us - otherwise there would be no freedom.

Why does god not make his existence perfectly clear to me?

[bluehillside Retd.]

BR,

Why does god not make his existence perfectly clear to me?

And why does God give his messengers like AB only catastrophically bad arguments to suggest He exists at all?

[Roses]

Why does god not make his existence perfectly clear to me?

I have asked that question so many times over the years, but never had an answer which makes any sense.

[BeRational]

BR,

And why does God give his messengers like AB only catastrophically bad arguments to suggest He exists at all?

Exactly. A reasonably intelligent god would know that I would find the points put to me to be useless as they contain fallacies.

[The Accountant, OBE, KC]

Exactly. A reasonably intelligent god would know that I would find the points put to me to be useless as they contain fallacies.

If people have the freedom to abuse others, presumably AB would say he was exercising his own freedom to make bad arguments.

[BeRational]

If people have the freedom to abuse others, presumably AB would say he was exercising his own freedom to make bad arguments.

He completely has that right.

But his god would know this, and know that I would dismiss it.

[bluehillside Retd.]

BR,

But his god would know this, and know that I would dismiss it.

Quite. Why would a god that wants people to know it exists give its envoys only terrible arguments to persuade people that it exists? Could it be that AB actually has some cogent arguments for his god, but he's exercising his "free" will never to tell us what they are? 

[The Accountant, OBE, KC]

He completely has that right.

But his god would know this, and know that I would dismiss it.

You might. Someone else might not. Who knows what different people connect with or see and interpret meaning in that influences their beliefs - presumably AB knows it's not within his control to convince anyone of something for which there is no objective evidence or which can't be objectively tested.

I'm guessing AB believes he has a duty to spread the message, regardless of whether anyone is convinced by it.  Presumably that's why AB continues to spread his message - bad arguments not withstanding. I don't think this forum would have been half as entertaining if he had stopped doing it.

[Roses]

You might. Someone else might not. Who knows what different people connect with or see and interpret meaning in that influences their beliefs - presumably AB knows it's not within his control to convince anyone of something for which there is no objective evidence or which can't be objectively tested.

I'm guessing AB believes he has a duty to spread the message, regardless of whether anyone is convinced by it.  Presumably that's why AB continues to spread his message - bad arguments not withstanding. I don't think this forum would have been half as entertaining if he had stopped doing it.

You could be right.

[BeRational]

You might. Someone else might not. Who knows what different people connect with or see and interpret meaning in that influences their beliefs - presumably AB knows it's not within his control to convince anyone of something for which there is no objective evidence or which can't be objectively tested.

I'm guessing AB believes he has a duty to spread the message, regardless of whether anyone is convinced by it.  Presumably that's why AB continues to spread his message - bad arguments not withstanding. I don't think this forum would have been half as entertaining if he had stopped doing it.

You say who knows, but surely his god would know that his arguments are useless for me?

[wigginhall]

Presumably, God knows the best arguments that would convince people, but apparently God is not revealing them to AB.   Big meanie!

Even more amazing is that God isn't revealing good arguments to anyone!

[The Accountant, OBE, KC]

You say who knows, but surely his god would know that his arguments are useless for me?

If we're following that line of thought, then I personally don't have any experience of being argued into believing in god. My beliefs seem to have an emotional component and I then think of reasons why holding that belief might or might not benefit me, based on my personal experience.

When I said "who knows what different people connect with or see and interpret meaning in that influences their beliefs", I was thinking of possible emotional responses that got people thinking about why they might be interested in looking into their interpretation of a religious message they come across.

[Alan Burns]

Presumably, God knows the best arguments that would convince people, but apparently God is not revealing them to AB.   Big meanie!

Even more amazing is that God isn't revealing good arguments to anyone!

God revealed all we need to know in the life, death and resurrection of Jesus.

[Alan Burns]

And Lucifer had very good evidence that God exists, and still rejected him.

Having full knowledge of God does not remove our freedom to choose.
A lover of evil can choose to reject God.

Why can we not have free will and also have the same evidence that God exists.

As I have pointed out many times, the gift of human free will is evidence of God's existence, because freedom can't exist in a physically predetermined material universe.

[The Accountant, OBE, KC]

Having full knowledge of God does not remove our freedom to choose.
A lover of evil can choose to reject God.

According to you, what makes them a "lover of evil"? Is it their soul that loves evil? And if yes, does the soul have a reason for loving evil?

As I have pointed out many times, the gift of human free will is evidence of God's existence, because freedom can't exist in a physically predetermined material universe.

How did you get from the perception of "freedom" to God? Is it because you believe freedom can't exist without a God or is there some other way you are trying to connect the perception of "freedom" to a "God"?

[Stranger]

God revealed all we need to know in the life, death and resurrection of Jesus.

That's laughable. The stories we have about Jesus (and stories is all we have) are totally unconvincing as evidence of any god - let alone a clear message from one. Once again we have to ask why this god of yours, if it exists, isn't making itself, and its message, more obvious.

Unwilling or unable?

[Alan Burns]

That's laughable. The stories we have about Jesus (and stories is all we have) are totally unconvincing as evidence of any god -

That is your personal opinion, but millions of highly intelligent Christians would beg to disagree.

[Alan Burns]

According to you, what makes them a "lover of evil"? Is it their soul that loves evil? And if yes, does the soul have a reason for loving evil?

The soul is what defines you and me.  Reasons exist in our minds, but they do not drive us.  We are driven by our own independent will - the spiritual power of my soul defines me and what I choose in life.

How did you get from the perception of "freedom" to God? Is it because you believe freedom can't exist without a God or is there some other way you are trying to connect the perception of "freedom" to a "God"?

My freedom is real - it is not just a perception of freedom.
I am free to choose my own destiny.
I cannot bring myself to deny the reality of my freedom in order to fit in with logical assumptions based on the non existence of God or my own spiritual nature.

[wigginhall]

God revealed all we need to know in the life, death and resurrection of Jesus.

Please stop with the "we".  If that works for you, fine, but don't tell me what I need.

[torridon]

That is your personal opinion, but millions of highly intelligent Christians would beg to disagree.

and millions of highly intelligent muslims will disagree with the christians and millions of highly intelligent hindus will disagree with the muslims.  If you want to play the numbers hand, I'm afraid you will surely lose.  Truth is not a democracy.

[torridon]

The soul is what defines you and me.  Reasons exist in our minds, but they do not drive us.  We are driven by our own independent will - the spiritual power of my soul defines me and what I choose in life.My freedom is real - it is not just a perception of freedom.
I am free to choose my own destiny.
I cannot bring myself to deny the reality of my freedom in order to fit in with logical assumptions based on the non existence of God or my own spiritual nature.

and yet the choices we make reflect our desires and if we cannot choose which preferences or desires to have, that freedom is illusory.  We are all following our desires, not choosing them.  If we feel free, that feeling arises when we are happy that no one is preventing us from getting what we want, it is external coercion that irritates.  Even after all these years, your understanding of this remains as thin as the morning mist.

[Stranger]

That is your personal opinion, but millions of highly intelligent Christians would beg to disagree.

And whichever god you believe in most people think you are wrong, so this doesn't even count as a ad pop fallacy.

You ignored my question (imagine my surprise!) - if this god wants to get its message across why isn't it making it clear. Unable or unwilling?

[Stranger]

I cannot bring myself to deny the reality of my freedom in order to fit in with logical assumptions based on the non existence of God or my own spiritual nature.

The logic that undoes your absurd and contradictory notion of freedom does not make those assumptions.

[Alan Burns]

and millions of highly intelligent muslims will disagree with the christians and millions of highly intelligent hindus will disagree with the muslims.  If you want to play the numbers hand, I'm afraid you will surely lose.  Truth is not a democracy.

I was just highlighting the absurdity of Stranger implying that the evidence in the New Testament is "laughable".