Searching for GOD...

[Gordon]

My post was about the sanctity of human life, but as you appear to ignore the profound difference between humans and animals you will never realise just how precious is our gift of human life.

Humans are animals, Alan.

Our ability to consciously contemplate the sanctity of human life is just one of these profound differences.

Yet we can't echolocate as bats do: I suspect that you're biased, species-wise.

And can you not realise the inevitable personal pressure our elderly people will feel in order "not to be a burden" if euthanasia becomes acceptable?

Please be careful whilst standing on that slippery slope.

[Alan Burns]

Yet we can't echolocate as bats do: I suspect that you're biased, species-wise.

Can you not see the profound difference between physical functions and conscious ability to contemplate the reality of our existence and the existence of every other creature?

[Gordon]

Can you not see the profound difference between physical functions and conscious ability to contemplate the reality of our existence and the existence of every other creature?

I see a difference, but it is just one of many differences across the variation of species on this wee planet and, as such, is not all that profound. I think you are probably over-egging the pudding in terms of the extent to which humans can contemplate 'reality', whatever that is.

[bluehillside Retd.]

AB,

We now have campaigns supported by the likes of Amnesty International to allow abortion up to birth...

Can you tell us where Amnesty International or anyone else does that, or is it just something else you've made up?

[Enki]

Well, Christians seem to be increasingly marginalised for their stance on the sanctity of human life.  We now have campaigns supported by the likes of Amnesty International to allow abortion up to birth and relentless pressure to allow assisted suicide to relieve us of the burden of having to care for our elderly relatives.

Your sort of Christian seems to be increasingly marginalised, Alan. Perhaps you have marginalised yourselves with your intolerant and prejudiced attitudes. Don't have the hubris to delineate all Christians in your distorted and prejudiced terms, Alan. As you know, or as you should know if you opened your eyes, there are plenty of Christians who don't have the warped views which you present here, who are compassionate and don't see that assisted suicide or assisted dying is simply a means 'to relieve us of the burden of having to care for our elderly relatives'as you callously suggest.

[torridon]

Can you not see the profound difference between physical functions and conscious ability to contemplate the reality of our existence and the existence of every other creature?

The conscious ability to contemplate is physical;  it might not be mechanical but it certainly is 'physical'.  Have you never heard it said that sitting exams makes the same calorie demands as digging the road ?

[wigginhall]

Whenever Alan uses the phrase, "can you not see that", you can be sure that he's expressing his incredulity, and, second, he will give no evidence at all.

[Alan Burns]

AB,

Can you tell us where Amnesty International or anyone else does that, or is it just something else you've made up?

The campaign comes under the heading of decriminalizing abortion, supported by Amnesty and the royal college of midwives, and would give the green light to abortion up to birth.  I believe such legislation has recently been approved in New York state.

It is a sad indictment on our increasingly secular western society.

[Alan Burns]

I see a difference, but it is just one of many differences across the variation of species on this wee planet and, as such, is not all that profound. I think you are probably over-egging the pudding in terms of the extent to which humans can contemplate 'reality', whatever that is.

I do not think animals are capable of contemplating anything which is unrelated to their own personal survival, because they do not have the gift of human free will.

[Gordon]

I do not think animals are capable of contemplating anything which is unrelated to their own personal survival, because they do not have the gift of human free will.

Maybe: but by the same token we can't (or at least I can't) echolocate insects on a dark night. Moreover, we're animals too you know, Alan, albeit we don't have the 'gift' of echlocation.

Too add: I'm not sure that we have free will anyway, and certainly not as you envisage it.

[Maeght]

I do not think animals are capable of contemplating anything which is unrelated to their own personal survival,

Possibly.

......because they do not have the gift of human free will.

Doesn't follow.

[jeremyp]

I do not think animals are capable of contemplating anything which is unrelated to their own personal survival, because they do not have the gift of human free will.

Humans are animals.

Furthermore, I'm not convinced that humans are the only animals capable of contemplating  anything which is unrelated to their own personal survival. Some other ape species might do, also dolphins and elephants.

Even furthermore, being the only example in a group to have a certain ability does not mean you are not in that group. David Beckham is the only ex England footballer with the ability to attract and marry a Spice Girl. That doesn't mean he is not an ex-England footballer.

[Alan Burns]

Humans are animals.

Furthermore, I'm not convinced that humans are the only animals capable of contemplating  anything which is unrelated to their own personal survival. Some other ape species might do, also dolphins and elephants.

Even furthermore, being the only example in a group to have a certain ability does not mean you are not in that group. David Beckham is the only ex England footballer with the ability to attract and marry a Spice Girl. That doesn't mean he is not an ex-England footballer.

That is a trivial example.

Our freedom to think about our own existence, the existence of others, the existence of the universe and the existence of a divine Creator is common throughout the whole human race, but not evident in the rest of the animal kingdom.

[Sriram]

The point is that we are animals....aspiring to come out of the animal slot.   And we are capable of coming out of it.  That is what makes us different.

All our attempts at becoming cooperative, selfless, charitable, altruistic and humane is to move into a 'higher' mental framework.  It is a natural but unique tendency and capability we seem to have developed. 

Even though some animal species may have developed rudimentary aspects of the 'higher' mind, we have it in full bloom.

Since we have the capability to move out of the animal mental slot and also seem to be directed towards it naturally, we should make it our objective of life.  That is what religions and spirituality teach.

[bluehillside Retd.]

AB,

The campaign comes under the heading of decriminalizing abortion, supported by Amnesty and the royal college of midwives, and would give the green light to abortion up to birth.  I believe such legislation has recently been approved in New York state.

It is a sad indictment on our increasingly secular western society.

But what you actually said was: "We now have campaigns supported by the likes of Amnesty International to allow abortion up to birth...". Amnesty International supports no such campaign and, so far as I know, nor does anyone else. What you claimed be true is not true, and you should withdraw it.

Whether what people actually campaign for "would give the green light to abortion up to birth" is your personal opinion on the matter, but I see no evidence for it.   

[Enki]

AB,

But what you actually said was: "We now have campaigns supported by the likes of Amnesty International to allow abortion up to birth...". Amnesty International supports no such campaign and, so far as I know, nor does anyone else. What you claimed be true is not true, and you should withdraw it.

Whether what people actually campaign for "would give the green light to abortion up to birth" is your personal opinion on the matter, but I see no evidence for it.

And further to this, Blue, Alan needs to look again at the amended abortion laws of New York State.

They actually says something which is very different from Alan's distorted viewpoint:

The new law will allow a licensed "health-care practitioner" acting under their scope of practice to perform an abortion when:

"According to the practitioner's reasonable and good faith professional judgment based on the facts of the patient's case: the patient is within twenty-four weeks from the commencement of pregnancy, or there is an absence of fetal viability, or the abortion is necessary to protect the patient's life or health."

So the measure will make late-term abortions legal at the discretion of a health-care practitioner based on the viability of the fetus or if the woman's life or health is in jeopardy.

https://eu.democratandchronicle.com/story/news/politics/albany/2019/01/22/abortion-laws-new-york-how-they-change-immediately/2643065002/


Which is a world away from Alan's insinuation that New York State has given 'the green light to abortion up to birth'.

[Alan Burns]

And further to this, Blue, Alan needs to look again at the amended abortion laws of New York State.

They actually says something which is very different from Alan's distorted viewpoint:

https://eu.democratandchronicle.com/story/news/politics/albany/2019/01/22/abortion-laws-new-york-how-they-change-immediately/2643065002/


Which is a world away from Alan's insinuation that New York State has given 'the green light to abortion up to birth'.

These three conditions are separated by the word "or" which means that any one of them can prevail.  It does not take much legal expertise to realise that the third condition would allow abortion up to birth if the mother claimed to have mental health issues.  Saying this, there can be no objection to abortion if it is to save the life of the mother.

[Alan Burns]

AB,

But what you actually said was: "We now have campaigns supported by the likes of Amnesty International to allow abortion up to birth...". Amnesty International supports no such campaign and, so far as I know, nor does anyone else. What you claimed be true is not true, and you should withdraw it.

Whether what people actually campaign for "would give the green light to abortion up to birth" is your personal opinion on the matter, but I see no evidence for it.

It is not personal opinion,

If abortion is decriminalised in this country, it would allow anyone to perform an abortion up to birth without danger of prosecution.

[SusanDoris]

It is not personal opinion,

If abortion is decriminalised in this country, it would allow anyone to perform an abortion up to birth without danger of prosecution.

That is far too vague and, as your statement stands, it would apply to those performing back-street, i.e. illegal and/or severely risky, abortions/

[Nearly Sane]

It is not personal opinion,

If abortion is decriminalised in this country, it would allow anyone to perform an abortion up to birth without danger of prosecution.

No, it wouldn't since such a procedure is controlled. Heart surgery is not 'criminalised, it doesn't mean anyone can carry out heart surgery
 Also decriminalising abortion does not allow abortion up till birth. I will agree your position is not 'just personal opinion', it isn't even that. It is you parroting other legally illiterate positions from people who either don't understand the law, or are deliberately ignoring the law to tout lies.

[Nearly Sane]

These three conditions are separated by the word "or" which means that any one of them can prevail.  It does not take much legal expertise to realise that the third condition would allow abortion up to birth if the mother claimed to have mental health issues.  Saying this, there can be no objection to abortion if it is to save the life of the mother.

Your knowledge of law is like mine of baseball. I don't talk about baseball. You shouldn't talk about the law here.

[Gordon]

It is not personal opinion,

If abortion is decriminalised in this country, it would allow anyone to perform an abortion up to birth without danger of prosecution.

Abortion is already legal is most of the UK, Alan, and is freely available subject to the provisions of the legislation - I'm surprised you seem unaware of this.

Now you tell us there could be changes that would allow abortion 'up to birth' - your evidence for this is what, exactly?

[wigginhall]

More nonsense from Alan.  "Anyone to perform an abortion", idiotic.   "Up to birth", the limit now is 24 weeks, there is no way this will be increased.

[Nearly Sane]

Here's a good introductory article to why decriminalising isn't about what  Alan's dishonest/ignorant ideas on this thread tries to portray.


https://academic.oup.com/ojls/article/36/2/334/2472463

[bluehillside Retd.]

AB,

It is not personal opinion,

If abortion is decriminalised in this country, it would allow anyone to perform an abortion up to birth without danger of prosecution.

Personal opinion is exactly what it is. No organisation that I know of “campaigns…to allow abortion up to birth..." as you asserted, least of all AI.

When you get something wrong that’s a mistake; when the mistake is corrected for you and you continue you with it then you’re lying. I know that lying for Jesus is your thing, but it does you no credit when you do it.