Searching for GOD...

[Sriram]

This is, to a degree, hubris, taking human superiority as an unquestioned given. I agree, chimpanzees have not produced a Shakespeare or a J S Bach, or landed a rover on an asteroid yet.  On the other hand, they are not knowingly driving species into extinction, filling the oceans with plastic or building weapons of mass destruction.  Maybe there is a terrible maths to this, the cost of producing a genius, is a hundred thousand morons.

You are not understanding.  It is not about 'superiority' as much as about stages of development. We humans have naturally developed into whatever we are. We did not do it consciously or through some planned process.  We have a natural tendency towards becoming more humane and universal....which we have become, compared to earlier centuries. 

My point was in response to comparing ourselves to other animals.  I have always pointed out the mistake of taking our cue from animals just because scientists classify us as animals.

We are not going back. We will never 'evolve' back into primates.   We are branching off. We are leaving behind the animal kingdom and becoming more and more different.

Our cultures including religions and spirituality, are only helping us to move away faster. 

[Maeght]

We are not going back. We will never 'evolve' back into primates.

We are primates.

[Alan Burns]

And don't forget, God has to produce lots of babies, to fuel the need of priests to rape them.

You ought to be ashamed of this vile comment.

It is true that paedophiles have infiltrated the Roman Catholic church, just as they have infiltrated most other institutions. But this should not detract from the fact that the vast majority of priests dedicate their lives to the service of God and His people.

[bluehillside Retd.]

Sriram,

You are not understanding.  It is not about 'superiority' as much as about stages of development. We humans have naturally developed into whatever we are.

“Whatever we are” is still humans, only with smarter technology than we used to have.

We did not do it consciously or through some planned process.

Depends what you mean by “it” – if you mean inventing new technologies that’s consciously done; if you mean evolution itself, that happens anyway – though there’s debate about the extent to which our species can now influence it.   

We have a natural tendency towards becoming more humane and universal....which we have become, compared to earlier centuries.

That’s a highly dubious assertion – you’re conflating an observable phenomenon with a “natural tendency” for it to happen. For all you know we’ll wipe ourselves out in a nuclear holocaust by next Tuesday. 

My point was in response to comparing ourselves to other animals.  I have always pointed out the mistake of taking our cue from animals just because scientists classify us as animals.

We don’t “take our cue”, and we’re animals because we are animals – not because “scientists” arbitrarily label us that way. 

We are not going back. We will never 'evolve' back into primates.

We’re still primates.

We are branching off. We are leaving behind the animal kingdom and becoming more and more different.

No we’re not. Members of the animal kingdom are defined by certain criteria, all of which we still have. If you’re suggesting that one day we may separate ourselves from that – perhaps by becoming some sort of unembodied intelligence – that's entirely speculation on your part.

Our cultures including religions and spirituality, are only helping us to move away faster.

Or some would argue are doing the opposite of that – by shackling us to bad reasoning, primitive superstitions and misplaced certainties they’re the very things that are holding us back from the speculations you postulate. 

[bluehillside Retd.]

AB,

You ought to be ashamed of this vile comment.

It is true that paedophiles have infiltrated the Roman Catholic church, just as they have infiltrated most other institutions. But this should not detract from the fact that the vast majority of priests dedicate their lives to the service of God and His people.

You've missed the point. Paedophiles may have "infiltrated" other institutions, but not many of those institutions protect them from legal prosecution so they remain free to continue abusing. 

This kind of thing for example (from today's Guardian):

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2019/mar/07/philippe-barbarin-french-cardinal-found-guilty-of-failing-to-act-on-sexual-abuse-allegations

[torridon]

You ought to be ashamed of this vile comment.

It is true that paedophiles have infiltrated the Roman Catholic church, just as they have infiltrated most other institutions. But this should not detract from the fact that the vast majority of priests dedicate their lives to the service of God and His people.

That's rather dismissive of the scale of the abuse.  We are not talking about the RCC being infiltrated by a handful of paedophiles in line with broader societal averages.  It is a particular problem in the RCC, there is a widespread institutional problem, first with the abuse, and then with the cover up.  The Royal Commission claims are that 7% of priests in the Australian church are involved for instance.  Some orders are worse than others - the figure for the St John of God Brothers order is 40%.  To sweep this under the carpet as a general malaise within broader society is to be in denial.  For this to be such a big problem in the RCC suggests there must something in the fundamental nature of the institution itself to explain it.

[jeremyp]

A policy which advocates the decriminalisation of abortion condones a woman's legal right to have her child killed for any reason while it is in the womb.

No it doesn't.

I cannot understand how an organisation which claims to stand up for human rights can have total disregard for the fact that there are two human lives at stake - not just one.

Right back at you.

The mother's life is also at stake, but you would sacrifice it for the unborn baby.

[jeremyp]

And don't forget, God has to produce lots of babies, to fuel the need of priests to rape them.

Wow. That wins today’s internet IMO

[jeremyp]

You ought to be ashamed of this vile comment.

It is true that paedophiles have infiltrated the Roman Catholic church, just as they have infiltrated most other institutions. But this should not detract from the fact that the vast majority of priests dedicate their lives to the service of God and His people.

I don’t agree with your characterization. I don’t think paedophiles have infiltrated the RCC, that would imply some sort of coordinated campaign. I think the RCC simply provides an environment that allows paedophiles to thrive, especially considering the injunction against having normal sexual relationships with adults and the RCC’s proclivity to protect its employees from prosecution.

[Alan Burns]

The mother's life is also at stake, but you would sacrifice it for the unborn baby.

I have never said that or implied it.

All I say is that both lives matter.

And thank you for recognising that it is a baby - not just a foetus.

[Alan Burns]

I think the RCC simply provides an environment that allows paedophiles to thrive, especially considering the injunction against having normal sexual relationships with adults .....

Roman Catholic priests are required to take a vow of chastity, which precludes all sexual relationships. There is no distinction between adults and children.

[torridon]

You are not understanding.  It is not about 'superiority' as much as about stages of development. We humans have naturally developed into whatever we are. We did not do it consciously or through some planned process.  We have a natural tendency towards becoming more humane and universal....which we have become, compared to earlier centuries. 

My point was in response to comparing ourselves to other animals.  I have always pointed out the mistake of taking our cue from animals just because scientists classify us as animals.

We are not going back. We will never 'evolve' back into primates.   We are branching off. We are leaving behind the animal kingdom and becoming more and more different.

Our cultures including religions and spirituality, are only helping us to move away faster.

Your trademark rosiness is showing in that.  I think you have a rosy view of human nature and a rosy view of religions.  Do you have any evidence that humans have a natural tendency to become more humane and universal ?  You could point to the fact that we are now less brutish and cruel than many pages in our history books reveal, we treat minorities with more respect.  On the other hand, we are now less inclined to help others in immediate need : someone getting mugged on the bus ? passer-bys would more likely step in to help 50 years ago, nowadays, people look the other way, not wanting to get involved.  People are becoming more self centred although we can afford to hold magnanimous views since we can afford to now,  just so long as it doesn't cost us too much personally.  Religions also are not guilt-free in this scenario, whilst societies broadly now distance themselves from the bigoted prejudices of the past, the last bastions of discrimination today are to be found in religious institutions where gender discrimination, misogyny and homophobia are still prevalent.

[SusanDoris]

Roman Catholic priests are required to take a vow of chastity, which precludes all sexual relationships. There is no distinction between adults and children.

so that excuses the revolting behaviour of a too large number of them, does it?
If you think it does not, then say so, clearly and unambiguously.
You don't seem to face up to any problem presentedd here, do you, AB?

[torridon]

Roman Catholic priests are required to take a vow of chastity, which precludes all sexual relationships. There is no distinction between adults and children.

Maybe that is part of the problem.  If you require people to lead a lifestyle that is in some respects deeply unnatural, there will be consequences.  Also, such a form of priesthood will likely be attractive to people who lack a 'mainstream' sexual nature. Not rocket science, really.  Allowing married priests would be a pragmatic step towards solving the abuse problem, and it would at a stroke solve the church's shortage of priests problem.  Sticking to ideological principals, in denial of reality, always causes harm, somewhere or other.

[Sriram]

Your trademark rosiness is showing in that.  I think you have a rosy view of human nature and a rosy view of religions.  Do you have any evidence that humans have a natural tendency to become more humane and universal ?  You could point to the fact that we are now less brutish and cruel than many pages in our history books reveal, we treat minorities with more respect.  On the other hand, we are now less inclined to help others in immediate need : someone getting mugged on the bus ? passer-bys would more likely step in to help 50 years ago, nowadays, people look the other way, not wanting to get involved.  People are becoming more self centred although we can afford to hold magnanimous views since we can afford to now,  just so long as it doesn't cost us too much personally.  Religions also are not guilt-free in this scenario, whilst societies broadly now distance themselves from the bigoted prejudices of the past, the last bastions of discrimination today are to be found in religious institutions where gender discrimination, misogyny and homophobia are still prevalent.

Nothing changes completely or for all time. As you have agreed, there is a broad change in thinking compared to earlier times. We ARE more civilized and universal in outlook than before. Even religious leaders are largely able to tolerate other religions and see things in a secular way.  More vegetarians, more animal rights, more women's equality, less discrimination etc etc.

It is always possible to pick out individual cases of bigotry or discrimination or cruelty. That is nitpicking.

Humans have broadly evolved into civilized beings from animals to savages to tribal communities to kingdoms to nations to one world. This as been the journey which has been mainly facilitated by religions through their message of love, compassion, universal brotherhood.

 

[bluehillside Retd.]

Sriram,

Humans have broadly evolved into civilized beings from animals to savages to tribal communities to kingdoms to nations to one world. This as been the journey which has been mainly facilitated by hindered, undermined, slowed, made problematic, polluted and achieved despite religions through their message of love, compassion, universal brotherhood otherness, sectarianism, contempt and divisiveness.

FIFY

[Alan Burns]

so that excuses the revolting behaviour of a too large number of them, does it?
If you think it does not, then say so, clearly and unambiguously.
You don't seem to face up to any problem presentedd here, do you, AB?

Of course it does not excuse the revolting behaviour of those who abuse children.

I just wish to point out that many priests uphold their vows and continue to live a life of prayer and service to God and His people in the way the church expects.  I personally know dozens of priests who fit this category and I have never met one who has been accused of abuse.  In attending Roman Catholic schools during my childhood I never came across any child who claimed they were abused.  Most of our clergy do not deserve the criticisms and ridicule being thrown at them.  However Jesus did warn His followers to expect such ridicule from those who follow the ways of the world.

[Gordon]

Of course it does not excuse the revolting behaviour of those who abuse children.

I just wish to point out that many priests uphold their vows and continue to live a life of prayer and service to God and His people in the way the church expects.  I personally know dozens of priests who fit this category and I have never met one who has been accused of abuse.  In attending Roman Catholic schools during my childhood I never came across any child who claimed they were abused.  Most of our clergy do not deserve the criticisms and ridicule being thrown at them.  However Jesus did warn His followers to expect such ridicule from those who follow the ways of the world.

You seem to be conflating ridicule at your preferred religious organisation, and all organisations and traditions are fair game as far as ridicule is concerned whether or not those associated with them like it, and the concerns expressed at the examples of the failure of the RCC to address instances of sexual abuse perpetrated by their clerics.

[Alan Burns]

Sriram,

    Humans have broadly evolved into civilized beings from animals to savages to tribal communities to kingdoms to nations to one world. This as been the journey which has been mainly facilitated by hindered, undermined, slowed, made problematic, polluted and achieved despite religions through their message of love, compassion, universal brotherhood otherness, sectarianism, contempt and divisiveness.

FIFY

And was this fix entirely defined in your subconscious before you consciously enacted it?
Or was it driven by your personal wish to deride anything with religious connotations?

[Alan Burns]

You seem to be conflating ridicule at your preferred religious organisation, and all organisations and traditions are fair game as far as ridicule is concerned whether or not those associated with them like it, and the concerns expressed at the examples of the failure of the RCC to address instances of sexual abuse perpetrated by their clerics.

My concerns about ridicule were mainly aimed at vile remarks such as that from Wiggs which imply that all Roman Catholic clergy are complicit in this sexual abuse of children.

[Gordon]

My concerns about ridicule were mainly aimed at vile remarks such as that from Wiggs which imply that all Roman Catholic clergy are complicit in this sexual abuse of children.

Thing is, Alan, when you encounter ridicule/satire you should perhaps identify the underlying point the ridicule/satire is aimed at rather than just reading the words literally: I'd imagine you don't read poetry literally.

Perhaps too you need to look at the 'vile' way your preferred religious organisation has inadequately dealt with priests who sexually abuse and accept that the poor management of this issue by the RCC leaves your church exposed to deserved ridicule.

[torridon]

FIFY

And was this fix entirely defined in your subconscious before you consciously enacted it?
Or was it driven by your personal wish to deride anything with religious connotations?

It's not either/or, it might be both.  Can you trace all mental states leading up to execution of a desire ? I highly doubt it.  Next time you smile at someone, remember you had to activate dozens of facial muscles in order to do that.  That smile, like Blue's fix, is the outcome, or the end point, of a cascade of mental processes, the intermediate steps of which we aren't aware.

[bluehillside Retd.]

AB,

Of course it does not excuse the revolting behaviour of those who abuse children.

I just wish to point out that many priests uphold their vows and continue to live a life of prayer and service to God and His people in the way the church expects.  I personally know dozens of priests who fit this category and I have never met one who has been accused of abuse.  In attending Roman Catholic schools during my childhood I never came across any child who claimed they were abused.  Most of our clergy do not deserve the criticisms and ridicule being thrown at them.  However Jesus did warn His followers to expect such ridicule from those who follow the ways of the world.

Still you miss the point. The point here is the behaviour of the institution itself – covering up the abuse, removing priests from the jurisdiction of local law enforcement so they’re free to continue abusing elsewhere etc. Your anecdotes about your personal experience don’t address that at all.   

[bluehillside Retd.]

AB,

And was this fix entirely defined in your subconscious before you consciously enacted it?
Or was it driven by your personal wish to deride anything with religious connotations?

I could easily tell you the answer yet again, but as you always ignore it when it's given to you there wouldn't be much point.

[bluehillside Retd.]

AB,

My concerns about ridicule were mainly aimed at vile remarks such as that from Wiggs which imply that all Roman Catholic clergy are complicit in this sexual abuse of children.

To be fair, the RCC doesn't just have to ensure a repeat supply of children to feed the needs of the paedophilic priests it protects. A much bigger number is required to replenish the perhaps hundreds of thousands that are avoidably killed each year by AIDS, hunger etc because of its teachings on contraception and its concomitant demands for unsustainably large families.