Author Topic: Searching for GOD...  (Read 3903954 times)

Stranger

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #35025 on: March 10, 2019, 11:03:44 AM »
The reason for a choice is determined by your consciously driven will.

I see the Alan-bot has suffered another reboot and lost all its memory again...

A will which is not shackled by past events because it works in the present, and gives you the conscious freedom to choose.

The "present" is totally meaningless in this context. As I have pointed out many, many times, colloquially it is irrelevant and more precisely, it doesn't exist.

If this "consciously driven will" does anything that isn't due to what immediately preceded it, then it has done something random - because it can't have been caused by anything.

Your consciousness is not a mere spectator upon what has already been predetermined.  Your consciousness invokes choices, it does not just perceive them.

You are still totally ignoring the logic. The role of consciousness in choice making is totally irrelevant. If my consciousness invokes a choice, that does not mean that it wasn't entirely due to the reasons that led to it. If, to any extent, it wasn't due to said reasons, then, to that extent, it must have been random.

Now you can totally ignore that again for the 10,001st time.
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torridon

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #35026 on: March 10, 2019, 11:11:27 AM »
The reason for a choice is determined by your consciously driven will.
A will which is not shackled by past events because it works in the present, and gives you the conscious freedom to choose.  Your consciousness is not a mere spectator upon what has already been predetermined.  Your consciousness invokes choices, it does not just perceive them.

The 'present' is not some magical place that is immune to logic.  The present moment is always a consequence of the previous moment.  What's so hard about this ?

Alan Burns

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #35027 on: March 10, 2019, 12:07:42 PM »
The 'present' is not some magical place that is immune to logic.  The present moment is always a consequence of the previous moment.  What's so hard about this ?
The present is where I exist, and where I make consciously driven choices.
I do not live in the past.
The truth will set you free  - John 8:32
Truth is not an abstraction, but a person - Edith Stein
Free will, though it makes evil possible, is also the only thing that makes possible any love or goodness or joy worth having. - CS Lewis
Joy is the Gigantic Secret of Christians - GK Chesterton

wigginhall

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #35028 on: March 10, 2019, 12:13:54 PM »
Assertion, incredulity, assertion, incredulity ....
They were the footprints of a gigantic hound!

Gordon

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #35029 on: March 10, 2019, 12:18:19 PM »
The present is where I exist, and where I make consciously driven choices.
I do not live in the past.

It just feels that way, Alan: but how it feels isn't always a good indication of how it probably is, especially if you lumber your feelings with a dash of child-like magical thinking.

torridon

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #35030 on: March 10, 2019, 12:23:03 PM »
The present is where I exist, and where I make consciously driven choices.
I do not live in the past.

 .. and the present, such as it is, is a consequence, or an outcome, of the past.  To change your state of mind in the present moment would require you to go back in time and alter the circumstances that led to your present state of mind.  You cannot change your mind for no reason without this being a random event.  Rocket Science

Stranger

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #35031 on: March 10, 2019, 12:34:08 PM »
The present is where I exist, and where I make consciously driven choices.
I do not live in the past.

In that (colloquial) sense, it's logically irrelevant. That "present" is just a short space of time that can, at any particular instant, be divided into past and future. Thinking about something and making a choice takes time; by the time you've done it, the start is in the past.

You cannot escape the fact that either what happens is due to the past, or it isn't and is therefore random, by pretending that there is some magical land of "the present" that is somehow immune to logic.
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Alan Burns

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #35032 on: March 10, 2019, 01:09:13 PM »
So, assuming this 'consciously driven will' you speak of doesn't function randomly what factors influence this 'consciously driven will'? 
Your conscious awareness will be influenced by many factors which can be actively recalled from memory, but your conscious awareness remains in control, and it can invoke a choice at will.
Quote
As you've been told the present isn't all you've cracked it up to be, and unless this 'invoking' happens randomly then some antecedents are involved no matter how hard you try to avoid this inescapable logical conclusion.
And what drives the process which leads to an inescapable logical conclusion?
Are you not in control of your own thoughts?
Or are they entirely predetermined by physically driven reactions in your brain cells?


The truth will set you free  - John 8:32
Truth is not an abstraction, but a person - Edith Stein
Free will, though it makes evil possible, is also the only thing that makes possible any love or goodness or joy worth having. - CS Lewis
Joy is the Gigantic Secret of Christians - GK Chesterton

Sebastian Toe

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #35033 on: March 10, 2019, 01:12:58 PM »
Your conscious awareness will be influenced by many factors which can be actively recalled from memory, but your conscious awareness remains in control, and it can invoke a choice at will. And what drives the process which leads to an inescapable logical conclusion?
Are you not in control of your own thoughts?
Or are they entirely predetermined by physically driven reactions in your brain cells?
Thank you for demonstrating  the workings of a biological brain making choices entirely under deterministic principles with no magic, logic free, fantasy ridden soul required.
"The word God is for me nothing more than the expression and product of human weaknesses, the Bible a collection of honourable, but still primitive legends.'
Albert Einstein

Stranger

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #35034 on: March 10, 2019, 02:18:03 PM »
Your conscious awareness will be influenced by many factors which can be actively recalled from memory, but your conscious awareness remains in control, and it can invoke a choice at will.

Once again completely ignoring the logic...

And what drives the process which leads to an inescapable logical conclusion?

Logical thought - you should try it.

Are you not in control of your own thoughts?
Or are they entirely predetermined by physically driven reactions in your brain cells?

And back to your favourite false dichotomy.    ::)
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Alan Burns

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #35035 on: March 10, 2019, 02:40:17 PM »
Once again completely ignoring the logic...

Logical thought - you should try it.

And why do you suppose my logical thoughts differ so much from your logical thoughts, given that you presume them to be predetermined by the same forces of nature?
What causes the difference?
The truth will set you free  - John 8:32
Truth is not an abstraction, but a person - Edith Stein
Free will, though it makes evil possible, is also the only thing that makes possible any love or goodness or joy worth having. - CS Lewis
Joy is the Gigantic Secret of Christians - GK Chesterton

bluehillside Retd.

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #35036 on: March 10, 2019, 02:51:20 PM »
AB,

Quote
And why do you suppose my logical thoughts differ...

You don't have any. Mindless assertions, repeated incredulity and just ignoring arguments you cannot rebut do not constitute logical thoughts. What you should have asked was: "Why do you suppose that I am incapable of logical thoughts, but you are not?".
"Don't make me come down there."

God

Stranger

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #35037 on: March 10, 2019, 03:17:00 PM »
And why do you suppose my logical thoughts differ so much from your logical thoughts, given that you presume them to be predetermined by the same forces of nature?
What causes the difference?

Firstly, I haven't seen much in the way of logical thought from you - and this is a case in point. There are obviously reasons why we would think differently if we make our choices for reasons; if our thoughts are the product of who we are - our nature, nurture, and experience.

The question is much more relevant to your magical, contradictory notion of "freedom" - why would some people think differently from others unless they are doing so for (past) reasons or entirely randomly?
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Alan Burns

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #35038 on: March 10, 2019, 05:07:22 PM »
AB,

You don't have any. Mindless assertions, repeated incredulity and just ignoring arguments you cannot rebut do not constitute logical thoughts. What you should have asked was: "Why do you suppose that I am incapable of logical thoughts, but you are not?".
The fact that you personally refute my logic is irrelevant to the question:

Why do you suppose my logical thoughts differ so much from your logical thoughts, given that you presume them to be predetermined by the same forces of nature?
What causes the difference?
The truth will set you free  - John 8:32
Truth is not an abstraction, but a person - Edith Stein
Free will, though it makes evil possible, is also the only thing that makes possible any love or goodness or joy worth having. - CS Lewis
Joy is the Gigantic Secret of Christians - GK Chesterton

Alan Burns

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #35039 on: March 10, 2019, 05:14:50 PM »

The question is much more relevant to your magical, contradictory notion of "freedom" - why would some people think differently from others unless they are doing so for (past) reasons or entirely randomly?
our thoughts are not random.
the past is common to everyone

Could we think differently because we haven personally driven freedom to control our thoughts?
The truth will set you free  - John 8:32
Truth is not an abstraction, but a person - Edith Stein
Free will, though it makes evil possible, is also the only thing that makes possible any love or goodness or joy worth having. - CS Lewis
Joy is the Gigantic Secret of Christians - GK Chesterton

bluehillside Retd.

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #35040 on: March 10, 2019, 05:21:32 PM »
AB,

Quote
The fact that you personally refute my logic is irrelevant to the question:

Why do you suppose my logical thoughts differ so much from your logical thoughts, given that you presume them to be predetermined by the same forces of nature?
What causes the difference?

Wrong again. The logic that falsifies your efforts has nothing to do with “me personally” – it’s the argument itself that does the work, not me. When you attempt an argument that’s logically false (as, on the rare occasion you actually attempt an argument, it always is) when more robust logic undoes you should address that rather than attempt to play the man.

If you want to ask a question that involves your “logical thoughts” then, finally, you will have to show that you have any. So far you haven’t managed it, and you just ignored my repeated offer to explain the basics of logic to you. That’s why you’re lost in your world of assertion and incredulity with no logical at all to provide a way out.
« Last Edit: March 10, 2019, 05:28:49 PM by bluehillside Retd. »
"Don't make me come down there."

God

bluehillside Retd.

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #35041 on: March 10, 2019, 05:23:52 PM »
AB,

Quote
Could we think differently because we haven personally driven freedom to control our thoughts?

No, because "personally driven freedom to control our thoughts" is incoherent nonsense for the reason you've had explained 27,863,290 times but always just ignore.
"Don't make me come down there."

God

Maeght

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #35042 on: March 10, 2019, 05:26:54 PM »
The fact that you personally refute my logic is irrelevant to the question:

Why do you suppose my logical thoughts differ so much from your logical thoughts, given that you presume them to be predetermined by the same forces of nature?
What causes the difference?

Prior experiences. No one suggests the thoughts are predetermined by forces of nature Alan. I'd have thought you'd have understood this after so long on this thread.

SusanDoris

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #35043 on: March 10, 2019, 05:27:34 PM »
And AB's last sentence from his previous post makes no sense at all. Synthetic Dave read it twice, but even it can't make sense of it!

Quote
Could we think differently because we haven personally driven freedom to control our thoughts?

consistently illogical, I suppose!
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Stranger

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #35044 on: March 10, 2019, 05:36:01 PM »
the past is common to everyone

Don't be so ridiculous! Everybody's nature, nurture, and experience is different. What on earth are you on about?

Could we think differently because we haven personally driven freedom to control our thoughts?

No, because, from what you've said about it, "personally driven freedom to control our thoughts" is self-contradictory nonsense.
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ippy

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #35045 on: March 10, 2019, 06:36:40 PM »
I was having a look for a more exact meaning of indoctrinated, via my P C, I can't think why? Anyway I found this lot it's a bit on the longish side but I think it's relevance to a large amount of the content of this thread warrants it, it does sum up a lot of my own feelings on the subject

Education vs Indoctrination

The difference between education and indoctrination is vast, but it is often subtle when the mind thinks of these two subjects. Education involves the seeking of facts, and learning about what is the truth, and what is not. Indoctrination is aimed at influencing people to believe in facts, without being able to back up these new found facts with anything but opinion.

You can be indoctrinated into a political party, a cult, or a belief system. In fact, all of us are indoctrinated into a belief system as we are growing up. Whether our parents or guardians are open and understanding people, or if they are bigoted, and want nothing to do with anyone outside of their own race and affiliations, we are subtly indoctrinated into their belief system. As we grow, many of us seek education in order to develop our own belief system.

Education can be directly supported by data that is derived from facts. Indoctrination tends to use language that encompasses everything, referring to ‘all’, or ‘every’, as though the insights created are a statement of fact for each and every individual of a group. For example: ‘All democrats spend too much money.’ ‘All republicans are religiously oriented and bring the bible to work with them.’ You can’t support these statements of ‘all’ and ‘every’ without actual data. If you believe it, then it has grown from opinion to indoctrination.

Education points out that there are different solutions, often to the same problem. Indoctrination poses the belief that there is only one solution to a problem. In Nazi Germany, the solution to growing economic problems was to exterminate all minorities and Jewish citizens, as though this was the only possible solution. There was no room for any kind of secondary thought to the proposed solution.

Education uses statistical analysis to encourage thought toward reasoning, and proposed solution finding. Indoctrination often uses statistics, but has offered no analysis of size, duration, control subjects, criteria, or duration of the gathering of those statistics. Thus, the statistics offered through indoctrination are simply misrepresented, and are used only to support the beliefs being posed. Any statistics that might dispute the beliefs are not brought to attention.

Education is unbiased. It is founded in fact, and isn’t there to persuade anyone to come up with a certain belief. Education is development of one’s own beliefs based on the facts that are discovered throughout the process. Indoctrination has an agenda. It is used to encourage the embracing of another’s beliefs, and developing blinding and complete agreement with those beliefs.
[/color]

Read more: Difference Between Education and Indoctrination | Difference Between | Education vs Indoctrination http://www.differencebetween.net/miscellaneous/difference-between-education-and-indoctrination/#ixzz5hn9GDKMk

I've left the info of where I acquired it from it's all there if anyone wishes to have a look, just trying to be helpful, just another line of thought that could be taken about this thread, regards to all,

ippy


torridon

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #35046 on: March 10, 2019, 06:47:04 PM »
The fact that you personally refute my logic is irrelevant to the question:

Why do you suppose my logical thoughts differ so much from your logical thoughts, given that you presume them to be predetermined by the same forces of nature?
What causes the difference?

A deterministic account of mind has no problem with this; clearly every individual follows a unique formative path, we would not expect two individuals to have identical thoughts or make identical choices. You cannot answer this question satisfactorily with 'souls' though.  Why would some people make good choices whereas other people make bad choices, others make stupid choices in the same situation.  Did god deal out good souls to some, bad souls to some, stupid souls to others ? Not much of an explanation really.

torridon

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #35047 on: March 10, 2019, 06:50:19 PM »
our thoughts are not random.
the past is common to everyone

Could we think differently because we haven personally driven freedom to control our thoughts?

when was the last time you told your mind which thought to think next and how to think it ?

jeremyp

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #35048 on: March 10, 2019, 07:04:14 PM »
Wrong
Any legislation would prioritise the life of the mother.
So you are not against abortion then.
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jeremyp

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #35049 on: March 10, 2019, 07:26:04 PM »
But what makes my personal opinions different from yours?

Your life experiences are different. Your genetics are not identical.
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