Author Topic: Searching for GOD...  (Read 3904351 times)

wigginhall

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #35100 on: March 12, 2019, 10:37:36 AM »
There is no serious evidence for any gods, and no serious arguments for any.   Ah well, I guess the thread will go on and on, kind of whistling in the wind.  How about a thread on phlogiston?
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Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #35101 on: March 12, 2019, 10:43:27 AM »
There is no serious evidence for any gods, and no serious arguments for any.   Ah well, I guess the thread will go on and on, kind of whistling in the wind.  How about a thread on phlogiston?
And you are qualified to pronounce on the definition of serious argument how exactly?

Sebastian Toe

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #35102 on: March 12, 2019, 10:53:32 AM »
Since you have taken up your challenge of a few posts ago let me take this on and maybe answer some of Sebastian Toes points as we go.

First of all, evidence of God aversion. Both Lawrence Krauss and Thomas Nagel talk of not wanting (aversion) God and both would along with many atheists acknowledge that they don't have full certainty that God does not exist. You yourself have counselled your fellow atheists not to declare that. In other words Logic does not decree atheism.

Given then that God may exist we are presented with various approaches to and understandings of God.

Which understanding garners most aversion? Is it the remote God? Is it the improbable God of the atheists? Is it the Ant God? Is it the God that Mohammed talks about?or what buddha talks about?

No, the evidence from this board is that the God who garners most heartfelt aversion is the Christian God, a God presented as close, once incarnate as a human being, who seems to offer personal relationship in which mere intellectual assent will not seem to suffice.

Plenty evidence of God aversion then

Given this the claim that Goddodging is a deeply idiotic idea looks unfounded.
How much certainty do you have that no other god exists than the one that you follow?
"The word God is for me nothing more than the expression and product of human weaknesses, the Bible a collection of honourable, but still primitive legends.'
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wigginhall

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #35103 on: March 12, 2019, 11:02:24 AM »
And you are qualified to pronounce on the definition of serious argument how exactly?

Well, produce one.
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Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #35104 on: March 12, 2019, 11:05:08 AM »
How much certainty do you have that no other god exists than the one that you follow?
Not sure what manner of certainty you are talking about here. Are you pitched at intellectual certainty of the '' I believe in Andromeda with almost perfect confidence certainty where intellectual certainty is high but it doesn't really affect me whether Andromeda existed or not''?

or certainty that comes from encounter, awareness of presence, affect, philosophical and intellectual analysis?


or Bunyanesque certainty where he is so certain that God exists he is unable to dodge God no matter how hard or what strategies he employs?

Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #35105 on: March 12, 2019, 11:07:08 AM »
Well, produce one.
Not a valid answer to my question I'm afraid. Revisit question and present qualifications, please.

wigginhall

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #35106 on: March 12, 2019, 11:14:00 AM »
Not a valid answer to my question I'm afraid. Revisit question and present qualifications, please.

It's the way you tell them.
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SusanDoris

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #35107 on: March 12, 2019, 11:16:11 AM »
There is no serious evidence for any gods, and no serious arguments for any.   Ah well, I guess the thread will go on and on, kind of whistling in the wind.
Well, yes, it sort of has to - especially because, as NS said a while back, this is now a national treasure!
Quote
  How about a thread on phlogiston?
No, there is no-one who would consistently allow themselves to be shown up every time they post as so ignorant of reality.
The Most Honourable Sister of Titular Indecision.

Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #35108 on: March 12, 2019, 11:16:16 AM »
It's the way you tell them.
And it's the way you don't.

bluehillside Retd.

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #35109 on: March 12, 2019, 11:34:52 AM »
Vlad,

Quote
And you are qualified to pronounce on the definition of serious argument how exactly?

You don't need to be "qualified to pronounce on the definition of serious argument" – just to be able to identify mistakes in reasoning. Your last effort on "goddodging" for example consists of a string of them. 
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God

Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #35110 on: March 12, 2019, 11:40:16 AM »
Vlad,

You don't need to be "qualified to pronounce on the definition of serious argument" – just to be able to identify mistakes in reasoning. Your last effort on "goddodging" for example consists of a string of them.
Feel free to demonstrate.

Enki

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #35111 on: March 12, 2019, 11:41:38 AM »
Since you have taken up your challenge of a few posts ago let me take this on and maybe answer some of Sebastian Toes points as we go.

First of all, evidence of God aversion. Both Lawrence Krauss and Thomas Nagel talk of not wanting (aversion) God and both would along with many atheists acknowledge that they don't have full certainty that God does not exist. You yourself have counselled your fellow atheists not to declare that. In other words Logic does not decree atheism.

Given then that God may exist we are presented with various approaches to and understandings of God.

Which understanding garners most aversion? Is it the remote God? Is it the improbable God of the atheists? Is it the Ant God? Is it the God that Mohammed talks about?or what buddha talks about?

No, the evidence from this board is that the God who garners most heartfelt aversion is the Christian God, a God presented as close, once incarnate as a human being, who seems to offer personal relationship in which mere intellectual assent will not seem to suffice.

Plenty evidence of God aversion then

Given this the claim that Goddodging is a deeply idiotic idea looks unfounded.


I haven't any aversion to God that I know about. I wouldn't know if it exists or not. Most certainly I find no evidence at all of its existence. So, why should I have a reason to believe in it.
Accepting however that God may exist( I have no evidence to suggest conclusively that it doesn't)  I am confronted mostly by Christians who have their own particular version of their God, one which I see no evidence for, and also one which seems to have some rather unpleasant characteristics. The more evangelistic Christians tend to try to persuade me of their particular take upon their God to which I, at times, quite reasonably react, pointing to the complete lack of evidence for what they are saying, the illogicality of some of their statements and stressing that they are simply asserting things because of their faith.

If I lived in a country which had a different god version(e.g. Judaism, Hinduism, Islam) no doubt I would be challenging anyone who was trying to convince me of the validity of their particular god in the same way(unless, of course, I would become the subject of state/religious oppression). Indeed, I used to mix with many Jewish friends when I was young, and had many arguments with them on this subject.

So, I don't see your point at all. Certainly I don't see the idea that I am goddodging has anything to recommend it in my case, and certainly not because most of those that I argue against(when I can be bothered) are Christian.
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bluehillside Retd.

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #35112 on: March 12, 2019, 11:47:59 AM »
Vlad,

Quote
Feel free to demonstrate.

No point. Every time I've done it in the past you've lied, misrepresented, prevaricated, avoided, redefined, dissembled and generally done everything you can to seek attention but never to engage honestly. Why would I invite to to do it again?

You pollute this board rather than contribute to it, and I'm not interested in feeding you.   
"Don't make me come down there."

God

Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #35113 on: March 12, 2019, 11:48:23 AM »

I haven't any aversion to God that I know about. I wouldn't know if it exists or not. Most certainly I find no evidence at all of its existence. So, why should I have a reason to believe in it.
Accepting however that God may exist( I have no evidence to suggest conclusively that it doesn't)  I am confronted mostly by Christians who have their own particular version of their God, one which I see no evidence for, and also one which seems to have some rather unpleasant characteristics.
Do you think the last point you make affects your disbelief in anyway? For example does it promote your disbelief? Does it generate feelings of aversion?

I bring this up because many atheists seem to have the unpleasantness of God as a key factor in their position on God.


Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #35114 on: March 12, 2019, 11:51:06 AM »
Vlad,

No point. Every time I've done it in the past you've lied, misrepresented, prevaricated, avoided, redefined, dissembled and generally done everything you can to seek attention but never to engage honestly. Why would I invite to to do it again?

You pollute this board rather than contribute to it, and I'm not interested in feeding you.   

Imagine somebody else said it....or ,more to the point, stop playing the man and play the ball for once.
Answer the points.

Sebastian Toe

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #35115 on: March 12, 2019, 11:53:21 AM »
Not sure what manner of certainty you are talking about here. Are you pitched at intellectual certainty of the '' I believe in Andromeda with almost perfect confidence certainty where intellectual certainty is high but it doesn't really affect me whether Andromeda existed or not''?

or certainty that comes from encounter, awareness of presence, affect, philosophical and intellectual analysis?


or Bunyanesque certainty where he is so certain that God exists he is unable to dodge God no matter how hard or what strategies he employs?
I'm asking how certain you are.
If you are unable to describe your level of certainty then maybe you should stop now?
"The word God is for me nothing more than the expression and product of human weaknesses, the Bible a collection of honourable, but still primitive legends.'
Albert Einstein

Sebastian Toe

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #35116 on: March 12, 2019, 11:55:00 AM »
Imagine somebody else said it...
Is somebody else going to respond to any replies or will that be you,
"The word God is for me nothing more than the expression and product of human weaknesses, the Bible a collection of honourable, but still primitive legends.'
Albert Einstein

Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #35117 on: March 12, 2019, 12:02:56 PM »
I'm asking how certain you are.
If you are unable to describe your level of certainty then maybe you should stop now?
Since your definition of certainty wasn't er, well defined I talked about 3 types of certainty.


I would say variously My certainty is between the second and third types.


The first type is what I'd describe as mere intellectual certainty which has zero affectiveness but is the only type of certainty or otherwise you and Bluehillside probably recognise.

Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #35118 on: March 12, 2019, 12:05:54 PM »
Is somebody else going to respond to any replies or will that be you,
Irrelevant.

If Hillside throws his toys out of the pram we have to ask why his emotion gets the better of him whenever I'm on …..or whether it might be God he is angry with and is merely ''shooting the messenger.''
« Last Edit: March 12, 2019, 12:08:22 PM by Phyllis Tyne »

Enki

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #35119 on: March 12, 2019, 12:09:43 PM »
Do you think the last point you make affects your disbelief in anyway? For example does it promote your disbelief? Does it generate feelings of aversion?

I bring this up because many atheists seem to have the unpleasantness of God as a key factor in their position on God.

Nope, not in the slightest. I have come across and have friends who I consider very decent Christians who emphasise and reflect what I would consider to be wholesome and positive characteristics of their God. I still find that not the slightest reason to believe in their God though. I think the point is that there might be people who are goddodging just as there are people who might have a predilection or partiality for God. However to attempt to generalise seems to me to be fraught with difficulty as none of us can see into another's mind that easily, and it also can suggest that in some way a person is being disingenuous about their thoughts and feelings.
Sometimes I wish my first word was 'quote,' so that on my death bed, my last words could be 'end quote.'
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Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #35120 on: March 12, 2019, 12:12:54 PM »
Nope, not in the slightest. I have come across and have friends who I consider very decent Christians who emphasise and reflect what I would consider to be wholesome and positive characteristics of their God. I still find that not the slightest reason to believe in their God though. I think the point is that there might be people who are goddodging just as there are people who might have a predilection or partiality for God. However to attempt to generalise seems to me to be fraught with difficulty as none of us can see into another's mind that easily, and it also can suggest that in some way a person is being disingenuous about their thoughts and feelings.
Thank you for keeping an open mind on the possibility of ''Goddodging''.


Some of my atheist friends on this forum seem to have fallen out with me.

Enki

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #35121 on: March 12, 2019, 12:19:09 PM »
Thank you for keeping an open mind on the possibility of ''Goddodging''.


Some of my atheist friends on this forum seem to have fallen out with me.

I rarely respond to you, not because I have fallen out with you, but because mostly I haven't a clue what you're on about. ;) :)
Sometimes I wish my first word was 'quote,' so that on my death bed, my last words could be 'end quote.'
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Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #35122 on: March 12, 2019, 12:23:26 PM »
I rarely respond to you, not because I have fallen out with you, but because mostly I haven't a clue what you're on about. ;) :)
Fair enough.

Maeght

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #35123 on: March 12, 2019, 01:22:36 PM »
I rarely respond to you, not because I have fallen out with you, but because mostly I haven't a clue what you're on about. ;) :)

Same here.

bluehillside Retd.

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #35124 on: March 12, 2019, 01:29:37 PM »
Maeght,

Quote
Same here.

That's three of you with no idea what he's on about - you, enki and Vlad himself.
"Don't make me come down there."

God