Searching for GOD...

[Gordon]

But in an entirely physically predetermined scenario, can you please identify the physical events which can determine the course of actions needed for me to deliberately pause, anticipate the mistake, stop typing and silently thank you for putting you straight?

And please do not pretend that the concept of "physical" is irrelevant.  It is entirely relevant because in your proposed scenario, the laws of physics will determine any outcome, and I know that "I" can't have any control over the laws of physics, so how can "I" possibly have the freedom to choose the outcome which you suggest?

Ignoring your 'physical' nonsense, it seems that you are falling into the fallacy of composition again: because our biology is subject to the 'laws of physics' (and chemistry etc), so we're talking particles and cells etc, you can't envisage that anything that is subject to these laws can think what to type next - you've had stuff like emergent properties explained to you before yet you seem stuck in infantile and magical thinking.

[torridon]

But in an entirely physically predetermined scenario, can you please identify the physical events which can determine the course of actions needed for me to deliberately pause, anticipate the mistake, stop typing and silently thank you for putting you straight?

And please do not pretend that the concept of "physical" is irrelevant.  It is entirely relevant because in your proposed scenario, the laws of physics will determine any outcome, and I know that "I" can't have any control over the laws of physics, so how can "I" possibly have the freedom to choose the outcome which you suggest?

Blue already covered this, quite well, in #35469, did you not read it ?  Things like 'deliberation', 'contemplation' are emergent phemomena of mind.  Just like wetness or touch; these things only have meaning at the higher levels of conceptualisation in which we live our daily lives.  But they all emerge from a deterministic substrate of reality.

[Alan Burns]

AB, the RCC hierarchy chose to ignore the activities of the paedophile priests, instead of reporting those evil scum to the police. Then there are the Magdalene laundries where unmarried mothers were treated like slaves, and often physically abused, no doubt also with the approval of the RCC hierarchy. There are so many crimes, which can be laid at the door of the RCC, and its skewed doctrine. Instead of preaching to us, which isn't doing you any favours at all, or your god, you should be seriously questioning a branch of Christianity, which has done so much harm over the centuries.

I am proud to be a Roman Catholic and value the immense good done by the church over the last two thousand years.  Of course I absolutely condemn the evil that has infiltrated God's church, but have faith that this evil will not destroy God's church.  And I am proud to be a member of a church which is not swayed by popular fashionable opinion but which adheres to the eternal values associated with human life and God's love for us.

[bluehillside Retd.]

AB,

But...

Now go back to what I just explained to you and actually read it. Slowly of it helps. Then try at least think about - really, really try to think about it.

And when you've done that rather than rush to your usual effort of personal incredulity (beginning with "but' is a big clue that you haven't understood a word by the way) that in fact has nothing whatever to do with what's been said to you, try at least to respond honestly this time. Finding meaning through conscious awareness is perfectly compatible with a deterministic, material universe when conscious awareness is itself a phenomenon of that universe.

That's it. That's all you need to know. No spooks, ghosts, ghoulies or other magical whatnots about which you have no information whatever are necessary to fill the gaps in that principle when you can't actually find any to be filled. The gaps we do know of are all concerned with how in detail these processes work, not with mindless assertions that a physical, deterministic consciousness is impossible.

Why not prove some of us wrong and demonstrate that you don't have "dishonest" written through you like a stick of rock and finally do the decent thing this time?           

[bluehillside Retd.]

AB,

I am proud to be a Roman Catholic and value the immense good done by the church over the last two thousand years.  Of course I absolutely condemn the evil that has infiltrated God's church, but have faith that this evil will not destroy God's church.  And I am proud to be a member of a church which is not swayed by popular fashionable opinion but which adheres to the eternal values associated with human life and God's love for us.

Then you're proud to be a member of an organisation that has actively enabled the continued abuse of children by the priests it protected from prosecution.

What does that say about your moral compass would you say?

[Roses]

I am proud to be a Roman Catholic and value the immense good done by the church over the last two thousand years.  Of course I absolutely condemn the evil that has infiltrated God's church, but have faith that this evil will not destroy God's church.  And I am proud to be a member of a church which is not swayed by popular fashionable opinion but which adheres to the eternal values associated with human life and God's love for us.

What good has that sick doctrine done for humanity? I can't think of anything good about it.

[Alan Burns]

And here’s the final nail in your coffin of magical thinking: consciousness itself is just an emergent property of all that vast well of cause and effect that’s going on under the bonnet. Or it least it is if you’re to follow the evidence rather that superstitions that were already outdated some 300 years ago.

Your blind faith in our conscious awareness being entirely defined by material reactions is unfounded.

To label it as an emergent property means nothing.

All the examples you can quote of known emergent properties comprise recognisable functionality or patterns which emerge from material elements.  We know how these properties work or what they comprise.  Not so with conscious awareness.

If you insist in believing that we comprise nothing but material elements, then you will inevitably have to presume that conscious awareness emerges from these material elements, even though you don't have a clue how it works.

So I will continue to witness to the truth that conscious awareness, together with human freewill, are evidence of the spiritual power of the human soul.

[Roses]

AB,

Then you're proud to be a member of an organisation that has actively enabled the continued abuse of children by the priests it protected from prosecution.

What does that say about your moral compass would you say?

AB's post just proves how brainwashed he is, which is really very sad, because I reckon he is a nice guy at heart.

[Alan Burns]

AB,

Then you're proud to be a member of an organisation that has actively enabled the continued abuse of children by the priests it protected from prosecution.

What does that say about your moral compass would you say?

The abuse scandal is evidence of the power of evil, which I recognise and openly condemn.

But our increasingly secular society is heading towards a regime which no longer recognises evil, and in addition no longer recognises that we have freedom to choose between good and evil.  So my moral compass remains firmly on following God's commandments and the guidance of His holy church.

[Roses]

The abuse scandal is evidence of the power of evil, which I recognise and openly condemn.

But our increasing secular society is heading towards a regime which no longer recognises evil, and in addition no longer recognises that we have freedom to choose between good and evil.  So my moral compass remains firmly on following God's commandments and the guidance of His holy church.

It is the so called 'guidance' of the RCC, which has landed it in the unholy mess it is in today.

[torridon]

It is the conscious "I" which determines what I consciously do, think or say, - not the subconscious "I" over which I can have no control.
This cannot be passed off as incredulity.  It is a fundamental reality which defines my existence and what I am and what I do.  I cannot bring myself not to believe in my freedom to choose what I do, think and say.

Your conscious "I" derives from the subconscious "I" though; not the other way around

[Alan Burns]

OK, deep breath now. BUT…all that meaning IS ONLY WITHIN THE CONTEXT OF CONSCIOUS AWARENESS. Underneath that sit all sorts of processes for which the narrow, conscious sense of meaning is meaningless. They just can’t care. If there are any, the aliens on Alpha Centauri don’t care. The universe itself other than the tiny, minuscule, insignificant part of it that comprises your conscious awareness doesn’t care either. None of it matters at all except for when it matters only to the consciously aware part of us that can care.

You vastly underestimate the power of this "tiny, minuscule, insignificant part of it that comprises your conscious awareness"

Our conscious awareness and freedom to think gives us the amazing power to discover and explore the vast reality of this universe, and to consciously interact with it to bring about our own creations - proving that intelligent design is a reality..  Could all this be attributed to nothing but the physically predetermined material reactions within a universe indifferent to life?

[Alan Burns]

Blue already covered this, quite well, in #35469, did you not read it ?  Things like 'deliberation', 'contemplation' are emergent phemomena of mind.  Just like wetness or touch; these things only have meaning at the higher levels of conceptualisation in which we live our daily lives.  But they all emerge from a deterministic substrate of reality.

Wetness and the sense of touch are properties over which I have no control.  But the control I have over my consciously driven acts of deliberation and contemplation is real and demonstrable.

[bluehillside Retd.]

AB,

Your blind faith…

Why have you just lied again?
 

The abuse scandal is evidence of the power of evil, which I recognise and openly condemn.

But our increasingly secular society is heading towards a regime which no longer recognises evil, and in addition no longer recognises that we have freedom to choose between good and evil.  So my moral compass remains firmly on following God's commandments and the guidance of His holy church.

So when the RCC does something good it’s to their credit and you’re proud of it, but when they do something bad it’s this mysterious independent force you call “evil” to blame so they’re off the hook?

Just out of interest, is there anything so categorically morally disgusting they could do that even you would finally think they deserved some blame? Clearly unnecessary child abuse isn’t enough for you. What would be then?

Oh, and by the way – it’s the very “secular society” you decry in the form of its law enforcement agencies that would have slung the pederast priests in jail long ago had your beloved church not protected them, and thereby saved countless children from avoidable harm.

Shame on you. Seriously.

You vastly underestimate the power of this "tiny, minuscule, insignificant part of it that comprises your conscious awareness"

Our conscious awareness and freedom to think gives us the amazing power to discover and explore the vast reality of this universe, and to consciously interact with it to bring about our own creations - proving that intelligent design is a reality..  Could all this be attributed to nothing but the physically predetermined material reactions within a universe indifferent to life?

Flat wrong again. The problem here is that you vastly overestimate it as some sort of universal force rather than a localised phenomenon that emerges from underlying processes that themselves aren’t conscious. All that “proves” is that your ability to reason is hopeless – either because it always was or because your blind faith has done that to you.

What I hadn’t appreciated though was that your moral compass is as fucked up as your intellectual one.       

Keep telling lies for Jesus if you want to, but you must expect to be treated accordingly when you do it.   

[Walt Zingmatilder]

What I hadn’t appreciated though was that your moral compass is as fucked up as your intellectual one.       

Moral compass? ''Compass?'' What, then, is the moral compass meant to be attracted to?

[torridon]

Wetness and the sense of touch are properties over which I have no control.  But the control I have over my consciously driven acts of deliberation and contemplation is real and demonstrable.

We don't have any choice over whether to experience the sky as blue or not.  Likewise we don't have control over which desires to have and our deliberations are an outcome of the desire to deliberate, something that we have no control over.  The choices we make are simply the winners out of the competition of rival urges, something that we do not control.

Still waiting for your explanation of how robins get around if they cannot see, and how my dog can suffer pain, if a human soul is necessary for experience, and for your evidence that perception from matter is impossible.

Whenever you are ready.

[Enki]

It is the conscious "I" which determines what I consciously do, think or say, - not the subconscious "I" over which I can have no control.
This cannot be passed off as incredulity.  It is a fundamental reality which defines my existence and what I am and what I do.  I cannot bring myself not to believe in my freedom to choose what I do, think and say.

I asked you three questions. For each one I gave reasons why something you rejected as 'something that does not add up' and is 'impossible' is in fact quite possible.

True to form, you have not even attempted to respond to those questions, only repeating assertions as if they were facts.

I do accept that you can't accept certain things, Alan, but, by the same token, you have to accept that other people don't necessarily share your convictions either, and, furthermore attempt to give reasons and evidence for their own views. You seem to exist in a haze of assertion and incredulity. For me, this is the main reason why your various protestations and faith statements seem so empty of any real substance. Nothing can be done about that, I suppose.   

[Alan Burns]

AB,

Why have you just lied again?
 
So when the RCC does something good it’s to their credit and you’re proud of it, but when they do something bad it’s this mysterious independent force you call “evil” to blame so they’re off the hook?

Just out of interest, is there anything so categorically morally disgusting they could do that even you would finally think they deserved some blame? Clearly unnecessary child abuse isn’t enough for you. What would be then?

Oh, and by the way – it’s the very “secular society” you decry in the form of its law enforcement agencies that would have slung the pederast priests in jail long ago had your beloved church not protected them, and thereby saved countless children from avoidable harm.

Shame on you. Seriously.

Flat wrong again. The problem here is that you vastly overestimate it as some sort of universal force rather than a localised phenomenon that emerges from underlying processes that themselves aren’t conscious. All that “proves” is that your ability to reason of hopeless – either because it always was or because your blind faith has done that to you.

What I hadn’t appreciated though was that your moral compass is as fucked up as your intellectual one.       

Keep telling lies for Jesus if you want to, but you must expect to be treated accordingly when you do it.

You appear to be a bit obsessed with accusing me of deliberate lies when all I am doing is witnessing to what I sincerely believe to be the truth.

You have failed to explain how our conscious awareness can emerge from material reactions.  Known emergent properties comprise recognisable functionality or patterns, but before you can presume conscious awareness to be an emergent property of material reactions you need to know what comprises conscious awareness and how it works.  Without this knowledge you are just jumping to an inevitable evidenced conclusion based upon your materialistic viewpoint.

The child abuse in the Roman Catholic church and other institutions is clear evidence of the presence of evil in this world.  I stand by my proclamation that I am proud to belong to a church which recognises and condemns such evil, including the evil of killing a child in its own mother's womb.

And if the secular view concludes that we can have no control over what we do, surely this gives the green light to all kinds of perverts to carry on doing what they want.  We all need to recognise just how powerful our gift of freewill is and to use it for the intended divine purpose of gaining eternal salvation for our souls.

[Maeght]

And if the secular view concludes that we can have no control over what we do, surely this gives the green light to all kinds of perverts to carry on doing what they want.

Don't be ridiculous.

[Gordon]

You appear to be a bit obsessed with accusing me of deliberate lies when all I am doing is witnessing to what I sincerely believe to be the truth.

You're not 'witnessing' anything, Alan: you've just caught a peculiar version of Christianity.

You have failed to explain how our conscious awareness can emerge from material reactions.  Known emergent properties comprise recognisable functionality or patterns, but before you can presume conscious awareness to be an emergent property of material reactions you need to know what comprises conscious awareness and how it works.  Without this knowledge you are just jumping to an inevitable evidenced conclusion based upon your materialistic viewpoint.

Don't be silly: the evidence clearly points to mental activity being rooted in our material biology, and that you find this unpalatable is simply the result of your fallacious thinking (in this case personal incredulity and ad consequentiam)

The child abuse in the Roman Catholic church and other institutions is clear evidence of the presence of evil in this world.  I stand by my proclamation that I am proud to belong to a church which recognises and condemns such evil, including the evil of killing a child in its own mother's womb.

Then your church needs to start being as conscientious in its its handling of the victims of abuse by clerics as it has been in shielding the offending clerics, albeit it may be too late already since its reputation in this respect is possibly already tarnished beyond repair. I also wonder if you regard the 'teaching' of your church regarding contraception is as 'evil' (a silly term when discussing health and social policy) as its 'teaching' regarding abortion, and if you appreciate the irony of these two 'teachings': not that it matters much I suppose since at least in the UK the 'teachings' of the RCC aren't authoritative across society at large.

And if the secular view concludes that we can have no control over what we do, surely this gives the green light to all kinds of perverts to carry on doing what they want.  We all need to recognise just how powerful our gift of freewill is and to use it for the intended divine purpose of gaining eternal salvation for our souls.

You have the ability to pack multiple fallacies into one paragraph: a trait that should worry you.

[Alan Burns]

You're not 'witnessing' anything, Alan: you've just caught a peculiar version of Christianity.

Peculiar in what way?

The reality of human freewill is at the heart of Christian belief.  I have never come across a fellow Christian who has the same views as Bluehillside or Torridon or Stranger regarding the nature of our human freewill.  In fact they find it astonishing that intelligent people can hold such views.

It is common Christian belief that our human soul takes on the accountability and consequences of what we do with our gift of freewill during our earthly lives.

[Nearly Sane]

Peculiar in what way?

The reality of human freewill is at the heart of Christian belief.  I have never come across a fellow Christian who has the same views as Bluehillside or Torridon or Stranger regarding the nature of our human freewill.  In fact they find it astonishing that intelligent people can hold such views.

It is common Christian belief that our human soul takes on the accountability and consequences of what we do with our gift of freewill during our earthly lives.

So that's a lot of dumb, and non Calvinist christians, who are so stupid they don't understand that their belief in their omni god directly contradicts their position, that you have met.

[Gordon]

Peculiar in what way?

The reality of human freewill is at the heart of Christian belief.  I have never come across a fellow Christian who has the same views as Bluehillside or Torridon or Stranger regarding the nature of our human freewill.  In fact they find it astonishing that intelligent people can hold such views.

It is common Christian belief that our human soul takes on the accountability and consequences of what we do with our gift of freewill during our earthly lives.

While I obviously don't subscribe to Christian beliefs, it seems to me that you have adopted an approach that is peculiar to you since I've never encountered other Christians attempting, as you do, to hover somewhere between determinism and randomness without actually landing anywhere that makes any sense.

[torridon]

You appear to be a bit obsessed with accusing me of deliberate lies when all I am doing is witnessing to what I sincerely believe to be the truth.

You have failed to explain how our conscious awareness can emerge from material reactions.  Known emergent properties comprise recognisable functionality or patterns, but before you can presume conscious awareness to be an emergent property of material reactions you need to know what comprises conscious awareness and how it works.  Without this knowledge you are just jumping to an inevitable evidenced conclusion based upon your materialistic viewpoint.
..

You've been pulled up on this before, many times.  The fact that we don't know everything does not justify us in ignoring the evidence that we do have.  We don't fully understand gravity but that doesn't stop us from putting satellites into orbit.  To figure stuff out we follow the evidence and learn as we go along.

And it seems to not bother you in the slightest that your alternative explanation is founded on zero evidence, no evidence for souls, no evidence for gods, no evidence for devils or angels and then you have the gall to accuse others of jumping to hasty conclusions because we cannot supply full knowledge.

You have double standards; being so two-faced is not an attribute of an honest person; go look in the mirror Alan before you whinge about people questioning your honesty.

[SusanDoris]

AB's post just proves how brainwashed he is, which is really very sad, because I reckon he is a nice guy at heart.

I was a bit dubious about that way way  back in the thread,  but not so much now. For anyone to so persistently and, I think, deliberately choose all his words to form sentences, which never answer or give any kind of sensible response to points raised, is downright bad manners and, I think, verges oninsult.

Yes, as a result of his non-communicative posts, there have been many opportunities for those with factual information and knowledge to present it and enable those of us with an interest in knowing the truth to increase our own understanding. AB's posts lead nowhere ... except perhaps to an increased anger and distaste for the bigotry of large parts of the RC church.