Author Topic: Searching for GOD...  (Read 3907282 times)

bluehillside Retd.

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #35525 on: March 25, 2019, 05:22:06 PM »
AB,

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They simply want freedom of choice which is not absolutely predetermined before they even think of it.  And this is the freedom we all experience

What people want has no relevance to the reality of what we actually have, and in any case at an experiential level (which is as far as your thinking extends) freedom of choice is what we have. That there's a deeper reality at play beneath the experiential is something you've had explained to you countless times only for you to ignore the explanation so as to repeat the mistake. This is dishonest behaviour, and you should stop doing it.

Incidentally, in Reply 35,502 I dismantled your previous effort. Predictably, I see that you've just ignored that too.     
« Last Edit: March 25, 2019, 05:28:08 PM by bluehillside Retd. »
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Alan Burns

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #35526 on: March 25, 2019, 05:31:50 PM »

It is incredulity, Alan (along with being a straw man).

Again you use 'predetermined' when 'determined' suffices, and again you are begging the question, and again if you want to exclude determined and not be stuck with random you need to advise of what this other non-determined but non-random state is - I think we should be told.
Can you not possibly conceive of the reality of the power of the human soul to determine your choices and free you from the inevitable fate of physically predetermined reactions?

You appear to be another who cannot (or consciously chooses not to) recognise the differences between reaction and choice or between predetermined and determined.  And "random" is a totally irrelevant red herring which I does not play any part in our consciously driven choices.
The truth will set you free  - John 8:32
Truth is not an abstraction, but a person - Edith Stein
Free will, though it makes evil possible, is also the only thing that makes possible any love or goodness or joy worth having. - CS Lewis
Joy is the Gigantic Secret of Christians - GK Chesterton

bluehillside Retd.

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #35527 on: March 25, 2019, 05:39:06 PM »
AB,

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Can you not possibly conceive of the reality of the power of the human soul to determine your choices and free you from the inevitable fate of physically predetermined reactions?

Conceptually at least you can conceive of anything, even something as deeply irrational as that. Your eternal problem though is to find a path from the conceptual to the probable. You know, the problem you always run away from.   

Quote
You appear to be another who cannot (or consciously chooses not to) recognise the differences between reaction and choice or between predetermined and determined.  And "random" is a totally irrelevant red herring which I does not play any part in our consciously driven choices.

Because for this purpose there isn't a difference - that's just something else you've made up.

And randomness is precisely relevant because if you reject the deterministic, that's the only alternative. Your option of "it's magic" is rhetorically worthless. 
 
« Last Edit: March 25, 2019, 05:44:59 PM by bluehillside Retd. »
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Gordon

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #35528 on: March 25, 2019, 05:48:42 PM »
Can you not possibly conceive of the reality of the power of the human soul to determine your choices and free you from the inevitable fate of physically predetermined reactions?

More fallacious theobollocks, Alan: you clearly have a vivid imagination.

Quote
You appear to be another who cannot (or consciously chooses not to) recognise the differences between reaction and choice or between predetermined and determined.  And "random" is a totally irrelevant red herring which I does not play any part in our consciously driven choices.

Random is the corollary of determined, Alan, and no amount of religious superstitions will get you out of that conundrum, which is of your own making.

Alan Burns

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #35529 on: March 25, 2019, 05:56:13 PM »
AB,

What people want has no relevance to the reality of what we actually have, and in any case at an experiential level (which is as far as your thinking extends) freedom of choice is what we have. That there's a deeper reality at play beneath the experiential is something you've had explained to you countless times only for you to ignore the explanation so as to repeat the mistake. This is dishonest behaviour, and you should stop doing it.

Incidentally, in Reply 35,502 I dismantled your previous effort. Predictably, I see that you've just ignored that too.   
But if it really is "the deeper reality at play beneath the experiential",  my supposed repetition of mistakes and dishonest behaviour will be "just the way it seems" because I will have no possible control over this deeper reality.  So what possible mechanism would you suggest for me to be able to rectify these mistakes if I can't control what you deem to be the ultimate underlying cause?
« Last Edit: March 25, 2019, 08:27:11 PM by Alan Burns »
The truth will set you free  - John 8:32
Truth is not an abstraction, but a person - Edith Stein
Free will, though it makes evil possible, is also the only thing that makes possible any love or goodness or joy worth having. - CS Lewis
Joy is the Gigantic Secret of Christians - GK Chesterton

Alan Burns

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #35530 on: March 25, 2019, 05:58:27 PM »

And randomness is precisely relevant because if you reject the deterministic, that's the only alternative. Your option of "it's magic" is rhetorically worthless.
Magic is an illusion, unlike my conscious choice to compose this reply.
« Last Edit: March 25, 2019, 06:05:57 PM by Alan Burns »
The truth will set you free  - John 8:32
Truth is not an abstraction, but a person - Edith Stein
Free will, though it makes evil possible, is also the only thing that makes possible any love or goodness or joy worth having. - CS Lewis
Joy is the Gigantic Secret of Christians - GK Chesterton

Sebastian Toe

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #35531 on: March 25, 2019, 06:15:29 PM »
........my conscious choice to compose this reply.

.........by using the workings of a biological brain making choices entirely under deterministic principles with no magic, logic free, fantasy ridden soul required.
"The word God is for me nothing more than the expression and product of human weaknesses, the Bible a collection of honourable, but still primitive legends.'
Albert Einstein

Alan Burns

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #35532 on: March 25, 2019, 06:20:37 PM »
.........by using the workings of a biological brain making choices entirely under deterministic principles with no magic, logic free, fantasy ridden soul required.
For "biological brain", read "the uncontrollable reactions to physically predetermined events within an entirely material brain."
The truth will set you free  - John 8:32
Truth is not an abstraction, but a person - Edith Stein
Free will, though it makes evil possible, is also the only thing that makes possible any love or goodness or joy worth having. - CS Lewis
Joy is the Gigantic Secret of Christians - GK Chesterton

Gordon

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #35533 on: March 25, 2019, 06:38:05 PM »
For "biological brain", read "the uncontrollable reactions to physically predetermined events within an entirely material brain."

You should take up writing sci-fi, Alan: that could well be an outline of a baddie in a future Dr Who plot.

torridon

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #35534 on: March 25, 2019, 07:22:18 PM »
Can you not possibly conceive of the reality of the power of the human soul to determine your choices and free you from the inevitable fate of physically predetermined reactions?
..

Your human soul idea has no real explanatory value though.  Just positing some imaginary entity that is free from cause and effect as the choice making agent offers no insight into how choices could be resolved in a way that is different to the way that brains do it. Determinism does offer a principal by which choices get resolved through the application of cause and effect - choices have a reason which provides a sense of meaning to the choice made.  By removing that cause and effect link, you remove meaning.  You still haven't resolved this yet - if choices are not made for a reason, then they are, by your own definition, random. If you insist a soul makes meaningful non-random choices then you are merely placing the soul within the same paradigm of cause and effect that material brains operate within.  You can't have it both ways.

Sebastian Toe

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #35535 on: March 25, 2019, 07:47:11 PM »
For "biological brain", read "the uncontrollable reactions to physically predetermined events within an entirely material brain."
For biological brain, read - biological brain.

For soul, read - magic, logic free, fantasy ridden.
"The word God is for me nothing more than the expression and product of human weaknesses, the Bible a collection of honourable, but still primitive legends.'
Albert Einstein

Alan Burns

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #35536 on: March 25, 2019, 08:17:40 PM »
Your human soul idea has no real explanatory value though.  Just positing some imaginary entity that is free from cause and effect as the choice making agent offers no insight into how choices could be resolved in a way that is different to the way that brains do it. Determinism does offer a principal by which choices get resolved through the application of cause and effect - choices have a reason which provides a sense of meaning to the choice made.  By removing that cause and effect link, you remove meaning.  You still haven't resolved this yet - if choices are not made for a reason, then they are, by your own definition, random. If you insist a soul makes meaningful non-random choices then you are merely placing the soul within the same paradigm of cause and effect that material brains operate within.  You can't have it both ways.
You are presupposing that the soul works in the same mechanistic cause and effect sense as a computer in order to arrive at a perceived end result.  But in this you take no account of the nature and power of our conscious awareness which exists within its own present state, and within this present state of conscious awareness exists the ability to invoke a choice which is not predetermined by the past, but determined by whatever your present state of conscious awareness wants.
The truth will set you free  - John 8:32
Truth is not an abstraction, but a person - Edith Stein
Free will, though it makes evil possible, is also the only thing that makes possible any love or goodness or joy worth having. - CS Lewis
Joy is the Gigantic Secret of Christians - GK Chesterton

Gordon

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #35537 on: March 25, 2019, 08:34:24 PM »
You are presupposing that the soul works in the same mechanistic cause and effect sense as a computer in order to arrive at a perceived end result.

So how does this 'soul', that you're presupposing exists, work then, Alan? After all, you're the expert so you should know.

Quote
But in this you take no account of the nature and power of our conscious awareness which exists within its own present state, and within this present state of conscious awareness exists the ability to invoke a choice which is not predetermined by the past, but determined by whatever your present state of conscious awareness wants.

I see you're still making the same old mistakes.

Alan Burns

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #35538 on: March 25, 2019, 08:44:17 PM »
So how does this 'soul', that you're presupposing exists, work then, Alan? After all, you're the expert so you should know.

As I have said before, I do not know the details of how the soul interacts with our physical brains.  I just know that it enables our conscious freedom to choose - something which has been deemed impossible by the materialist views on this thread, and which frees us from being biological robots with no consciously driven willpower of our own.
The truth will set you free  - John 8:32
Truth is not an abstraction, but a person - Edith Stein
Free will, though it makes evil possible, is also the only thing that makes possible any love or goodness or joy worth having. - CS Lewis
Joy is the Gigantic Secret of Christians - GK Chesterton

wigginhall

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #35539 on: March 25, 2019, 08:55:49 PM »
I just know that it doesn't.
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Gordon

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #35540 on: March 25, 2019, 08:58:10 PM »
As I have said before, I do not know the details of how the soul interacts with our physical brains.

For someone who concedes they don't know you seem awfully certain: do you accept that you could be wrong about 'souls' interacting with brains?

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I just know that it enables our conscious freedom to choose - something which has been deemed impossible by the materialist views on this thread, and which frees us from being biological robots with no consciously driven willpower of our own.

You've a short memory, Alan: you've just conceded that you don't know, so the rest of this ramble is just your usual wishful thinking getting the better of you again.

torridon

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #35541 on: March 26, 2019, 06:05:44 AM »
They simply want freedom of choice which is not absolutely predetermined before they even think of it.  And this is the freedom we all experience.

The choice we make reflects the state of mind we are in at the moment of choice and the notion that we could change our state of mind because we've discovered that we don't like the option that we like makes no sense; it is self-referential absurdity.  There has to be some reason to trigger a change of mind.  What is so hard about this ?  At base, is it that you cannot stomach the arrow of time ?

torridon

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #35542 on: March 26, 2019, 06:12:25 AM »
As I have said before, I do not know the details of how the soul interacts with our physical brains.  I just know that it enables our conscious freedom to choose - something which has been deemed impossible by the materialist views on this thread, and which frees us from being biological robots with no consciously driven willpower of our own.

What is impossible is your incoherent conceptualisation of freedom.  Freedom from oppression is a valid concept; but a freedom from cause and effect which is not random is not a coherent concept.  Likewise 'consciously driven willpower' that has zero derivation, that comes out of the blue with no rhyme or reason, is an incoherent self contradicting conceptualisation of what will is.  If you want something, it must be because of a reason otherwise it is merely random.

wigginhall

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #35543 on: March 26, 2019, 08:55:06 AM »
Weird that AB uses the phrase "consciously driven will power", yet insists It's not caused by anything.    How can something be driven yet without a reason or cause?
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bluehillside Retd.

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #35544 on: March 26, 2019, 10:36:09 AM »
AB,

Quote
But if it really is "the deeper reality at play beneath the experiential",  my supposed repetition of mistakes and dishonest behaviour will be "just the way it seems" because I will have no possible control over this deeper reality.  So what possible mechanism would you suggest for me to be able to rectify these mistakes if I can't control what you deem to be the ultimate underlying cause?

Recently you talked about reaching a crossroad, albeit completely wrongly. Well, I think you’ve reached one of your own now: if you continue with this you will have no choice but to reveal either that you cannot process even a simple logical explanation, or that you do understand it but you pretend not to so as to keep repeating exactly the same mistake. Neither is a good look, but unless you have a sudden bout of honesty they’re the only options.

Yet again: at the level of abstraction that is conscious awareness you are (or would be if you were honest) perfectly capable of evaluating arguments, deriving meaning, changing your mind etc. Within that paradigm (but only within that paradigm), these things aren’t “illusory” at all. They’re real enough to be functionally useful, indeed necessary if we’re to exist both individually and collectively.

BUT (and it’s a huge but), that does not imply that at a deeper level of reality you have or need to have any control, any consciousness, any anything. Indeed there’s isn’t a “you” at that level at all because the “you” you perceive is an emergent property of all those gazillions of interacting bits and forces.

That’s the real illusory bit – the illusion that consciousness goes all the way down, has some sort of universal application, is anything other than a localised phenomenon that extends down into its constituent parts.

Now write that down in very big letters, and the next time you’re tempted to begin a reply with “but that would mean” you can read it, change your mind and not fall off the same cliff you’ve always fallen over before.

You’re welcome.     

Quote
Magic is an illusion, unlike my conscious choice to compose this reply.

See above. Stage magic is deliberately illusory. There are lots of myths and folk tales though that rely on “real” magic – the Tooth Fairy, Father Christmas etc. Your concept of “soul” is one of those, epistemically identical in its absence of a cogent rationale. 

Quote
As I have said before, I do not know the details of how the soul interacts with our physical brains.

No you don’t. Nor moreover do you know what a “soul” consists of, where it is, how anyone would investigate the claim, what any of its properties would be, or indeed anything at all of any kind about this supposed phantom. And yet you have the sheer, unmitigated gall to dismiss all of the materialist evidence we do have for consciousness because of the gaps in it when you have nothing at all by way of an explanation for “soul” in which there even could be gaps.

Does this colossal double standard trouble you not even slightly?   
   
Quote
I just know that it enables our conscious freedom to choose –

Priceless! Then I “just know” that leprechauns leave pots of gold at the ends of rainbows. Can you think of any reason for someone to take more seriously your assertion of just knowing something than they should take my assertion of just knowing something?

Quote
…something which has been deemed impossible by the materialist views on this thread,

It’s got nothing to do with “materialist views” – it’s just logic. If you want to assert that logic no longer applies in Magicland that’s up to you, but if logic no longer applies there then nor can anything else. You can populate it with any madness or idiocy you like, which is pretty much what you do.   

Quote
…and which frees us from being biological robots with no consciously driven willpower of our own.

And one of your favouring big fat lies/logical fallacies to finish. Bravo!
« Last Edit: March 26, 2019, 10:41:44 AM by bluehillside Retd. »
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SusanDoris

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #35545 on: March 26, 2019, 10:37:26 AM »
Weird that AB uses the phrase "consciously driven will power", yet insists It's not caused by anything.    How can something be driven yet without a reason or cause?
Exactly, but I think it will just go by, whoooosh!, and not even get a look-in AB's biological brain. 
*add here Sebastian Toe's sensible refrain*
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Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #35546 on: March 26, 2019, 01:38:07 PM »
AB,

Recently you talked about reaching a crossroad, albeit completely wrongly. Well, I think you’ve reached one of your own now: if you continue with this you will have no choice but to reveal either that you cannot process even a simple logical explanation, or that you do understand it but you pretend not to so as to keep repeating exactly the same mistake. Neither is a good look, but unless you have a sudden bout of honesty they’re the only options.

Yet again: at the level of abstraction that is conscious awareness you are (or would be if you were honest) perfectly capable of evaluating arguments, deriving meaning, changing your mind etc. Within that paradigm (but only within that paradigm), these things aren’t “illusory” at all. They’re real enough to be functionally useful, indeed necessary if we’re to exist both individually and collectively.

BUT (and it’s a huge but), that does not imply that at a deeper level of reality you have or need to have any control, any consciousness, any anything. Indeed there’s isn’t a “you” at that level at all because the “you” you perceive is an emergent property of all those gazillions of interacting bits and forces.

That’s the real illusory bit – the illusion that consciousness goes all the way down, has some sort of universal application, is anything other than a localised phenomenon that extends down into its constituent parts.

Now write that down in very big letters, and the next time you’re tempted to begin a reply with “but that would mean” you can read it, change your mind and not fall off the same cliff you’ve always fallen over before.

You’re welcome.     

See above. Stage magic is deliberately illusory. There are lots of myths and folk tales though that rely on “real” magic – the Tooth Fairy, Father Christmas etc. Your concept of “soul” is one of those, epistemically identical in its absence of a cogent rationale. 

No you don’t. Nor moreover do you know what a “soul” consists of, where it is, how anyone would investigate the claim, what any of its properties would be, or indeed anything at all of any kind about this supposed phantom. And yet you have the sheer, unmitigated gall to dismiss all of the materialist evidence we do have for consciousness because of the gaps in it when you have nothing at all by way of an explanation for “soul” in which there even could be gaps.

Does this colossal double standard trouble you not even slightly?   
   
Priceless! Then I “just know” that leprechauns leave pots of gold at the ends of rainbows. Can you think of any reason for someone to take more seriously your assertion of just knowing something than they should take my assertion of just knowing something?

It’s got nothing to do with “materialist views” – it’s just logic. If you want to assert that logic no longer applies in Magicland that’s up to you, but if logic no longer applies there then nor can anything else. You can populate it with any madness or idiocy you like, which is pretty much what you do.   

And one of your favouring big fat lies/logical fallacies to finish. Bravo!
IMO this post is a masterclass in wrapping the eliminative materialists view of consciousness up so you think no one can suspect you of it.


« Last Edit: March 26, 2019, 01:41:51 PM by Phyllis Tyne »

bluehillside Retd.

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #35547 on: March 26, 2019, 02:07:07 PM »
Vlad,

Quote
IMO this post is a masterclass in wrapping the eliminative materialists view of consciousness up so you think no one can suspect you of it.

I think you'd be on safer ground with your previous strategy of flat out lying and hoping someone pays you attention than this new one of posting alphabet soup gibberish.

Up to you though. 
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God

Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #35548 on: March 26, 2019, 02:13:50 PM »
Vlad,

I think you'd be on safer ground with your previous strategy of flat out lying and hoping someone pays you attention than this new one of posting alphabet soup gibberish.

Up to you though.
Not gibberish at all. If you think consciousness is an illusion you are an eliminative materialist.

I don't know how that goes down with your reductionist materialist colleagues but you seem to want EM to be some kind of atheist equivalent of the Knights of St Columba.

wigginhall

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #35549 on: March 26, 2019, 02:30:21 PM »
I don't think that's correct.  I know Buddhists and others, who argue that consciousness is an illusion, or doesn't exist, and it seems unlikely that they are eliminative materialists.
They were the footprints of a gigantic hound!