Author Topic: Searching for GOD...  (Read 3907676 times)

bluehillside Retd.

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #35550 on: March 26, 2019, 02:54:27 PM »
Wiggs,

Quote
I don't think that's correct.  I know Buddhists and others, who argue that consciousness is an illusion, or doesn't exist, and it seems unlikely that they are eliminative materialists.

It's not correct to say that consciousness is illusory either, as I made clear in my reply to AB. It's real as an experiential phenomenon, and the illusory bit concerns overreaching into thinking it's something other than just an emergent property. As with all emergent phenomena, the constituent parts don't individually have the property (ie, consciousness) but the whole system does.

Vlad's also trying his old stunt of misdescribing materialism. He might as well criticise gravitational theory for eliminating invisible pixies doing it, but he knows this already so presumably it's feeding time again. 

     
« Last Edit: March 26, 2019, 03:14:04 PM by bluehillside Retd. »
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Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #35551 on: March 26, 2019, 04:05:53 PM »
I don't think that's correct.  I know Buddhists and others, who argue that consciousness is an illusion, or doesn't exist, and it seems unlikely that they are eliminative materialists.

Is that because they are not materialists or are not eliminative?

Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #35552 on: March 26, 2019, 04:11:19 PM »
the illusory bit concerns overreaching into thinking it's something other than just an emergent property.

Firstly, I've never been convinced you have totally grasped emergence and secondly, you have here asserted positively that it IS merely an emergent property.

In any case......such a cack handed use of the term illusion in such a context.

bluehillside Retd.

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #35553 on: March 26, 2019, 04:14:27 PM »
Vlad,

Quote
Firstly, I've never been convinced you have totally grasped emergence and secondly, you have here asserted positively that it IS merely an emergent property.

In any case......such a cack handed use of the term illusion in such a context.

Collapse of your attempted critique noted. As I said, you'd be on safer ground if you just stuck to flat out lying.
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Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #35554 on: March 26, 2019, 04:25:27 PM »
Bluehillside stated
……….the illusion that consciousness goes all the way down, has some sort of universal application, is anything other than a localised phenomenon that extends down into its constituent parts.
Is this or is it not, in the context of the post it was part of, a positive assertion?


I believe it is and that you have some explaining to do.

Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #35555 on: March 26, 2019, 04:33:10 PM »
Bluehillside statedIs this or is it not, in the context of the post it was part of, a positive assertion?


I believe it is and that you have some explaining to do.
It is also New atheist since Fourhorsemanism is fond of guffing on about going all the way down.


Extending down to it's constituents is definitely reductionism.


That amounts to two beliefs touted as truth.

bluehillside Retd.

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #35556 on: March 26, 2019, 05:40:42 PM »
Quote
Is this or is it not, in the context of the post it was part of, a positive assertion?


I believe it is and that you have some explaining to do.

* Amendment

   Please note that in the previous 23 volumes of Schott & Wilson’s “The Principles of Aerodynamics - A Guide for Students, Engineers and Designers” we
   described aerodynamic lift as follows:

   “Lift occurs when a moving flow of gas is turned by a solid object. The flow is turned in one direction, and the lift is generated in the opposite direction,
   according to Newton's Third Law of action and reaction. Because air is a gas and the molecules are free to move about, any solid surface can deflect a flow.

   For an aircraft wing, both the upper and lower surfaces contribute to the flow turning
.”
   
   Having consulted the well-known logician Mr V. Lad however we have now added the following addendum:
   
   In our previous description of aerodynamic lift by “occurs” we should have said: “Is congruent with all the available evidence for lift, subsequently tested
   in the practical development and use of wings. This does not necessarily imply however that aerodynamic lift necessarily is not caused by invisible cherubs
   blowing very hard upwards just under the wings
”.

   The Authors are pleased to have clarified this point.   
« Last Edit: March 26, 2019, 05:49:43 PM by bluehillside Retd. »
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bluehillside Retd.

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #35557 on: March 26, 2019, 05:44:44 PM »
Quote
It is also New atheist since Fourhorsemanism is fond of guffing on about going all the way down.


Extending down to it's constituents is definitely reductionism.


That amounts to two beliefs touted as truth.

Stick to attention-seeking lying Vlad, it's what you know best. Incomprehensible gibberish is even worse.
"Don't make me come down there."

God

Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #35558 on: March 26, 2019, 06:03:00 PM »
* Amendment

   Please note that in the previous 23 volumes of Schott & Wilson’s “The Principles of Aerodynamics - A Guide for Students, Engineers and Designers” we
   described aerodynamic lift as follows:

   “Lift occurs when a moving flow of gas is turned by a solid object. The flow is turned in one direction, and the lift is generated in the opposite direction,
   according to Newton's Third Law of action and reaction. Because air is a gas and the molecules are free to move about, any solid surface can deflect a flow.

   For an aircraft wing, both the upper and lower surfaces contribute to the flow turning
.”
   
   Having consulted the well-known logician Mr V. Lad however we have now added the following addendum:
   
   In our previous description of aerodynamic lift by “occurs” we should have said: “Is congruent with all the available evidence for lift, subsequently tested
   in the practical development and use of wings. This does not necessarily imply however that aerodynamic lift necessarily is not caused by invisible cherubs
   blowing very hard upwards just under the wings
”.

   The Authors are pleased to have clarified this point. 
Argumentum ad ridiculum for starters.

Also while it has been demonstrated how airplanes fly to the exclusion of invisible cherubs...….. reductionism of any stripe other than methodological reductionism and a complete scientific explanation of consciousness that excludes non material consciousness has not been demonstrated.

So.…….. shite analogy(or should that be Schite and Wilson?) and false equivalence.



bluehillside Retd.

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #35559 on: March 26, 2019, 06:05:51 PM »
Vlad,

Quote
Argumentum ad ridiculum for starters.

Also while it has been demonstrated how airplanes fly to the exclusion of invisible cherubs...….. reductionism of any stripe other than methodological reductionism and a complete scientific explanation of consciousness that excludes non material consciousness has not been demonstrated.

So.…….. shite analogy(or should that be Schite and Wilson?) and false equivalence.

Oh dear - one post, three major fails. Oh well, 'twas ever thus I suppose...
"Don't make me come down there."

God

Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #35560 on: March 26, 2019, 06:21:24 PM »
Vlad,
 
Oh dear - one post, three major fails. Oh well, 'twas ever thus I suppose...
Hillside.

When was there ever a time when people thought airplanes were held aloft by invisible pixies......answer never, unless you believe airplanes existed in medieval times. ;D ;D ;D

You won't make that sort of mistake again in a hurry, will you, or perhaps you might double down on it?

bluehillside Retd.

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #35561 on: March 26, 2019, 06:35:07 PM »
Quote
Hillside.

When was there ever a time when people thought airplanes were held aloft by invisible pixies......answer never, unless you believe airplanes existed in medieval times.     

You won't make that sort of mistake again in a hurry, will you, or perhaps you might double down on it?

Note for others: never, ever, ever, use metaphors, similes, analogies or any other rhetorical device within 100 miles of Vlad. Tell him something is like looking for a needle in a haystack for example and he’ll immediately demand to know where this haystack is exactly, what kind of needle is involved, why anyone would go looking for a needle when it’s easier to buy a new one and on and (wearily) on. It’s all intended to throw up a smokescreen to make good his escape without ever dealing with the argument itself.

Dishonesty 101 in other words, but hey-ho...

…‘twas always so indeed.     
"Don't make me come down there."

God

Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #35562 on: March 26, 2019, 07:19:57 PM »
Note for others: never, ever, ever, use metaphors, similes, analogies or any other rhetorical device within 100 miles of Vlad. Tell him something is like looking for a needle in a haystack for example and he’ll immediately demand to know where this haystack is exactly, what kind of needle is involved, why anyone would go looking for a needle when it’s easier to buy a new one and on and (wearily) on. It’s all intended to throw up a smokescreen to make good his escape without ever dealing with the argument itself.

Dishonesty 101 in other words, but hey-ho...

…‘twas always so indeed.   
Like Icarus you have flown too close to the sun. Alas Adonis, you seemed to have spluttered on your Ambrosia.

bluehillside Retd.

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #35563 on: March 26, 2019, 07:50:40 PM »
Vlad,

Quote
Like Icarus you have flown too close to the sun. Alas Adonis, you seemed to have spluttered on your Ambrosia.

Avoidance noted. Go troll other people though - I'm not interested in feeding you. 
"Don't make me come down there."

God

Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #35564 on: March 27, 2019, 08:27:10 AM »
Vlad,

Avoidance noted. Go troll other people though - I'm not interested in feeding you.
At it's best your post was awful metaphor and terrible analogy.
At it's worse there was more appeal to ridicule that the Appeal to ridicule march up appeal to ridicule street, Appeal to ridicule city in the state of Appeal to ridicule.

Alan Burns

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #35565 on: March 27, 2019, 09:06:50 AM »
AB,

Recently you talked about reaching a crossroad, albeit completely wrongly. Well, I think you’ve reached one of your own now: if you continue with this you will have no choice but to reveal either that you cannot process even a simple logical explanation, or that you do understand it but you pretend not to so as to keep repeating exactly the same mistake. Neither is a good look, but unless you have a sudden bout of honesty they’re the only options.

Yet again: at the level of abstraction that is conscious awareness you are (or would be if you were honest) perfectly capable of evaluating arguments, deriving meaning, changing your mind etc. Within that paradigm (but only within that paradigm), these things aren’t “illusory” at all. They’re real enough to be functionally useful, indeed necessary if we’re to exist both individually and collectively.

BUT (and it’s a huge but), that does not imply that at a deeper level of reality you have or need to have any control, any consciousness, any anything. Indeed there’s isn’t a “you” at that level at all because the “you” you perceive is an emergent property of all those gazillions of interacting bits and forces.

That’s the real illusory bit – the illusion that consciousness goes all the way down, has some sort of universal application, is anything other than a localised phenomenon that extends down into its constituent parts.

Now write that down in very big letters, and the next time you’re tempted to begin a reply with “but that would mean” you can read it, change your mind and not fall off the same cliff you’ve always fallen over before.

You’re welcome.     

See above. Stage magic is deliberately illusory. There are lots of myths and folk tales though that rely on “real” magic – the Tooth Fairy, Father Christmas etc. Your concept of “soul” is one of those, epistemically identical in its absence of a cogent rationale. 

No you don’t. Nor moreover do you know what a “soul” consists of, where it is, how anyone would investigate the claim, what any of its properties would be, or indeed anything at all of any kind about this supposed phantom. And yet you have the sheer, unmitigated gall to dismiss all of the materialist evidence we do have for consciousness because of the gaps in it when you have nothing at all by way of an explanation for “soul” in which there even could be gaps.

Does this colossal double standard trouble you not even slightly?   
   
Priceless! Then I “just know” that leprechauns leave pots of gold at the ends of rainbows. Can you think of any reason for someone to take more seriously your assertion of just knowing something than they should take my assertion of just knowing something?

It’s got nothing to do with “materialist views” – it’s just logic. If you want to assert that logic no longer applies in Magicland that’s up to you, but if logic no longer applies there then nor can anything else. You can populate it with any madness or idiocy you like, which is pretty much what you do.   

And one of your favouring big fat lies/logical fallacies to finish. Bravo!
in all this you have failed to answer my question:
So what possible mechanism would you suggest for me to be able to rectify these mistakes if I can't control what you deem to be the ultimate underlying cause?
The truth will set you free  - John 8:32
Truth is not an abstraction, but a person - Edith Stein
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Joy is the Gigantic Secret of Christians - GK Chesterton

Gordon

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #35566 on: March 27, 2019, 09:13:44 AM »
in all this you have failed to answer my question:
So what possible mechanism would you suggest for me to be able to rectify these mistakes if I can't control what you deem to be the ultimate underlying cause?

Easy peasy, Alan: ditch 'God' (or more precisely, your bespoke and incoherent personal take on 'God').

bluehillside Retd.

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #35567 on: March 27, 2019, 09:43:21 AM »
AB,

Quote
in all this you have failed to answer my question:
So what possible mechanism would you suggest for me to be able to rectify these mistakes if I can't control what you deem to be the ultimate underlying cause?

I know that you can read because you can construct reasonably intelligible sentences. This means that you must be able to read what's said here, so the problem must be downstream of basic literacy. So what happens when you see very plainly expressed word like:

"Yet again: at the level of abstraction that is conscious awareness you are (or would be if you were honest) perfectly capable of evaluating arguments, deriving meaning, changing your mind etc. Within that paradigm (but only within that paradigm), these things aren’t “illusory” at all. They’re real enough to be functionally useful, indeed necessary if we’re to exist both individually and collectively"?

Do you think, “OK, I see them but I’m just going to pretend that I haven’t?” or maybe, “I think that’s wrong because it doesn’t accord with my faith beliefs, but I can’t make a rebuttal argument so I’ll just keep repeating those in the hope the falsification of it goes away?” Or do you think something else?

For what it’s worth, I see your dishonesty as different from that of someone like Vlad. He wakes up, thinks “what six lies can I tell on an mb before breakfast in the hope that someone pays me some attention?”. You on the other hand I think hand on heart don't see yourself as dishonest – despite your behaviour here being just that.

Yet again, “you” can decide to do whatever you like (provided it’s lawful and doesn’t scare the horses) because that’s your experience of consciousness. If, say, you said 2+2=5 (which in rhetorical terms is what you do) and I explained why it isn’t, chances are you’d agree with me. You should therefore be perfectly capable of understanding where you go wrong with your various mistakes and fallacies, and of changing your mind about those things to. Except you won’t do that, because the religious beliefs you hold a priori cannot be jeopardised at any cost – including the cost deep dishonesty.

Your major mistake here though is assume that “you” is something other than a temporal, localised phenomenon that arises from underlying components that themselves aren’t conscious at all. “You” in other words are an emergent property of countless bits of stuff and forces interacting to form a system. That system (ie, consciousness) derives meaning and makes decisions, but does so necessarily only within its own, relatively narrow level of abstraction. Consciousness cannot be a more fundamental phenomenon than that though because beneath the system there is no “you” – just lots and lots of sub-atomic particles.

Doubtless you’ll just ignore this as you ignore everything else, but hey-ho.

And speaking of just ignoring problems with your assertions, any thoughts by the way on why it’s ok to use the gaps in the findings from neuroscience (and from other disciplines) to dismiss entirely the large body of evidence they do provide, yet it’s also fine just to assert the claim “soul” about which you have zero information of any kind?

Or is “I just know” seriously all you have to say about that?
« Last Edit: March 27, 2019, 10:01:23 AM by bluehillside Retd. »
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God

Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #35568 on: March 27, 2019, 09:58:17 AM »
Easy peasy, Alan: ditch 'God' (or more precisely, your bespoke and incoherent personal take on 'God').
Funny, I thought this was about consciousness but then trust you fundementalists dragging God into everything.

There you go again equating atheism with logic.

bluehillside Retd.

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #35569 on: March 27, 2019, 10:05:01 AM »
Quote
There you go again equating atheism with logic.

Correctly so.
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God

SusanDoris

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #35570 on: March 27, 2019, 10:06:44 AM »
You on the other hand I think hand on heart don't see yourself as dishonest – despite your behaviour here being just that.
I think that is too generous. I think I see it more as his ongoing conceit about his perceived cleverness in the composition of his responses.
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bluehillside Retd.

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #35571 on: March 27, 2019, 10:23:20 AM »
Susan,

Quote
I think that is too generous. I think I see it more as his ongoing conceit about his perceived cleverness in the composition of his responses.

Maybe, but he doesn't see that perceived cleverness as dishonest despite the fact that he relies on just ignoring all the arguments that falsify his efforts. He also incidentally has the sheer gall every now and then to tell us that none of the arguments here have caused him to change his mind as if the arguments themselves were poor rather than that he simply won't engage with them.   
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Roses

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #35572 on: March 27, 2019, 10:34:46 AM »
Sadly AB really believes god is instructing him to preach to us. What he is unable to see is with each post he is making his take on faith more and more ridiculous.
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bluehillside Retd.

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #35573 on: March 27, 2019, 10:54:32 AM »
Floo,

Quote
Sadly AB really believes god is instructing him to preach to us. What he is unable to see is with each post he is making his take on faith more and more ridiculous.

Yes, he's been "called" to "witness" his claims doncha know, and he "just knows" he's right about that. So there you go - game, set and match I'd say.
"Don't make me come down there."

God

Alan Burns

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #35574 on: March 27, 2019, 11:19:12 AM »
Easy peasy, Alan: ditch 'God' (or more precisely, your bespoke and incoherent personal take on 'God').
And you too have failed to answer:
So what possible mechanism would you suggest for me to be able to rectify these mistakes (and consciously choose to ditch God) if I can't control what you deem to be the ultimate underlying cause?
« Last Edit: March 27, 2019, 11:23:41 AM by Alan Burns »
The truth will set you free  - John 8:32
Truth is not an abstraction, but a person - Edith Stein
Free will, though it makes evil possible, is also the only thing that makes possible any love or goodness or joy worth having. - CS Lewis
Joy is the Gigantic Secret of Christians - GK Chesterton