Searching for GOD...

[Walt Zingmatilder]

Certainly we are at the point where language breaks down in attempting to explain the phenomena in question. Nonetheless, the talk is still of the phenomenal universe. First, physics thought that the molecular was a level deeper than which we could not inverstigate. Then came the atomic level - another ne plus ultra. And then the sub-atomic, and then the level of 'charm' and other strange particles. But this of this universe - not outside it.

It will be interesting to see how physics gets round the issue of necessity and contingency or whether it has actually got fuck all to say about it.

[Walt Zingmatilder]

Certainly we are at the point where language breaks down in attempting to explain the phenomena in question. Nonetheless, the talk is still of the phenomenal universe. First, physics thought that the molecular was a level deeper than which we could not inverstigate. Then came the atomic level - another ne plus ultra. And then the sub-atomic, and then the level of 'charm' and other strange particles. But this of this universe - not outside it.

Yes Dicky but I can't help wondering whether you are arguing for another chain of eternal contingency? Where is the necessity here? and how do we spot it?

[Alan Burns]

You believe a god exists.

Why?

A good question.

I believe God exists because I think deeply.

I think deeply about the theory of evolution.  And how people who look for reasons not to believe in God latch on to this theory, presuming that any amount of discovered complexity can be generated from the blind, unguided process of natural selection, which in essence is a crude fine tuning process which can increase survival chances for existing species.

I think deeply about my own conscious awareness, and the profound difficulty in trying to explain how material reactions alone can generate awareness of material reactions.

I think deeply about my ability to think deeply and direct my own thought processes to write this post.  And I conclude that physically predetermined material reactions can never generate my conscious ability to control my thoughts.

I think deeply about the short life of the son of a Jewish carpenter who lived most of his life in obscurity, was executed for blasphemy, left no written work of his own, yet became the most influential person in the history of the human race.

I think deeply about the constant persecution suffered by the Christian church which began with the birth of Christ, and the source of strength which helped the church survive to become the world's major religion.

I think deeply about people's spiritual needs.  I recall visits to Taizé in France where on Friday evenings, hundreds of young people from all over the world queue up until the early hours to talk about their spiritual lives with the Taizé brothers.

I think deeply about the inner peace and joy I perceive in many other Christians who have discovered the love of God in their earthly lives.  A love which enables them to endure whatever trials come before them.

I think deeply about the evil that exists in the world, and the truly worrying secular trend of not recognising the source of evil and its inherent dangers.

I think deeply about attempts to ridicule and trivialise every post I make on this forum - in particular being accused of not thinking!

[BeRational]

A good question.

I believe God exists because I think deeply.

I think deeply about the theory of evolution.  And how people who look for reasons not to believe in God latch on to this theory, presuming that any amount of discovered complexity can be generated from the blind, unguided process of natural selection, which in essence is a crude fine tuning process which can increase survival chances for existing species.

I think deeply about my own conscious awareness, and the profound difficulty in trying to explain how material reactions alone can generate awareness of material reactions.

I think deeply about my ability to think deeply and direct my own thought processes to write this post.  And I conclude that physically predetermined material reactions can never generate my conscious ability to control my thoughts.

I think deeply about the short life of the son of a Jewish carpenter who lived most of his life in obscurity, was executed for blasphemy, left no written work of his own, yet became the most influential person in the history of the human race.

I think deeply about the constant persecution suffered by the Christian church which began with the birth of Christ, and the source of strength which helped the church survive to become the world's major religion.

I think deeply about people's spiritual needs.  I recall visits to Taizé in France where on Friday evenings, hundreds of young people from all over the world queue up until the early hours to talk about their spiritual lives with the Taizé brothers.

I think deeply about the inner peace and joy I perceive in many other Christians who have discovered the love of God in their earthly lives.  A love which enables them to endure whatever trials come before them.

I think deeply about the evil that exists in the world, and the truly worrying secular trend of not recognising the source of evil and its inherent dangers.

I think deeply about attempts to ridicule and trivialise every post I make on this forum - in particular being accused of not thinking!

I understand that you think about these things and I think about lots of stuff to.
None of the above is evidence for a god though. It is evidence of you thinking.
I do not latch onto reasons to not believe in a god I do not believe because the claim that a god exists has not met its burden of proof.
Also, just to point out that evolution has nothing at all to do with my atheism.
Evolution could be discredited tomorrow and that would not help the case for a god.
You should know this as many deeply religious people accept that evolution is both a fact, and a theory.

[Roses]

A good question.

I believe God exists because I think deeply.

I think deeply about the theory of evolution.  And how people who look for reasons not to believe in God latch on to this theory, presuming that any amount of discovered complexity can be generated from the blind, unguided process of natural selection, which in essence is a crude fine tuning process which can increase survival chances for existing species.

I think deeply about my own conscious awareness, and the profound difficulty in trying to explain how material reactions alone can generate awareness of material reactions.

I think deeply about my ability to think deeply and direct my own thought processes to write this post.  And I conclude that physically predetermined material reactions can never generate my conscious ability to control my thoughts.

I think deeply about the short life of the son of a Jewish carpenter who lived most of his life in obscurity, was executed for blasphemy, left no written work of his own, yet became the most influential person in the history of the human race.

I think deeply about the constant persecution suffered by the Christian church which began with the birth of Christ, and the source of strength which helped the church survive to become the world's major religion.

I think deeply about people's spiritual needs.  I recall visits to Taizé in France where on Friday evenings, hundreds of young people from all over the world queue up until the early hours to talk about their spiritual lives with the Taizé brothers.

I think deeply about the inner peace and joy I perceive in many other Christians who have discovered the love of God in their earthly lives.  A love which enables them to endure whatever trials come before them.

I think deeply about the evil that exists in the world, and the truly worrying secular trend of not recognising the source of evil and its inherent dangers.

I think deeply about attempts to ridicule and trivialise every post I make on this forum - in particular being accused of not thinking!

I am sure you think deeply about your faith, but it  doesn't mean your thoughts on the topic  are correct. No one has any evidence to support the existence of any god. Of course a god could be out there somewhere, it would be daft to deny that very remote possibility. However, the Christian god has very unpleasant, human characteristics, therefore my deep thinking on the subject is that it is a human creation which doesn't actually exist in reality.

[torridon]

I think deeply about the evil that exists in the world, and the truly worrying secular trend of not recognising the source of evil and its inherent dangers.
..

This demonstrates the truly worrying trend of not recognising that the source of evil and its inherent dangers is god itself.  By worshipping god you are worshipping evil; very worrying that you cannot see that.

[bluehillside Retd.]

AB,

A good question.

I believe God exists because I think deeply.

But the product of this supposed deep thinking cannot it seems be articulated as a coherent argument. Why then should anyone think you to be right about that? 

I think deeply about the theory of evolution.  And how people who look for reasons not to believe in God latch on to this theory,

You have this backwards. People don’t “latch on” to the ToE because they’re looking for reason not to believe in your or any other god. Rather they accept it because the reasoning and evidence for it is both robust and overwhelming.   

…presuming that any amount of discovered complexity can be generated from the blind, unguided process of natural selection, which in essence is a crude fine tuning process which can increase survival chances for existing species.

Why claim to think deeply about something and then get so much about it wrong? You no more need to “presume” the ToE than you need to presume the theory of gravity or presume the theory of germs causing disease; complexity demonstrably can be generated by evolutionary processes; and evolution also explains the phenomenon of new species.   

I think deeply about my own conscious awareness, and the profound difficulty in trying to explain how material reactions alone can generate awareness of material reactions.

That you find that difficult so reach for explanations for which you have no evidence at all is just a function of your personal incredulity. That’s not an argument, let alone one that’s been deeply thought about. 

I think deeply about my ability to think deeply and direct my own thought processes to write this post.  And I conclude that physically predetermined material reactions can never generate my conscious ability to control my thoughts.

Again, that’s not deep thinking – deep thinking (or any thinking at all for that matter) would entails a rationale for why you think something to be impossible rather than just the assertion of it. 

I think deeply about the short life of the son of a Jewish carpenter who lived most of his life in obscurity, was executed for blasphemy, left no written work of his own, yet became the most influential person in the history of the human race.

Presumably because your supposed deep thinking doesn’t extend so far as to understand the phenomenon of survivorship bias. Unlikely things succeed all the time for reasons that have nothing at all to do with any inherent superiority.

I think deeply about the constant persecution suffered by the Christian church which began with the birth of Christ, and the source of strength which helped the church survive to become the world's major religion.

You may well think deeply about that, but it has nothing to say about the truth or otherwise of the various stories. And if you want to claim being a “major religion” as significant then by numbers of adherents Islam beats yours into second place in any case. Do you think deeply too about the persecution of the first Muslims and the success of their religion, or do you think deeply only about the faith with which you happen to be most familiar?     

I think deeply about people's spiritual needs.  I recall visits to Taizé in France where on Friday evenings, hundreds of young people from all over the world queue up until the early hours to talk about their spiritual lives with the Taizé brothers.

As indeed lots of people like to talk about the “spiritual” satisfaction they get from lots of different religions you think to be wrong. So?

I think deeply about the inner peace and joy I perceive in many other Christians who have discovered the love of God in their earthly lives.  A love which enables them to endure whatever trials come before them.

And some of us cope just as well with different religious beliefs entirely or with no religious beliefs at all. How would your deep thinking take you from the contentment from believing something to be true to that something actually being true?

I think deeply about the evil that exists in the world, and the truly worrying secular trend of not recognising the source of evil and its inherent dangers.

Then clearly you’re not thinking deeply enough about that because there’s no such thing as a “secular trend of not recognising the source of evil and its inherent dangers”. The source of “evil” (by which presumably you mean something like “bad things happening”) is a complex and multi-answerable question, and it’s secular societies that have done more than any others to reduce its incidence with universal suffrage, readily available education, universal healthcare etc. If you don’t believe me, try living in a theocracy for a bit and see how you get on.   

I think deeply about attempts to ridicule and trivialise every post I make on this forum - in particular being accused of not thinking!

The accusation of not thinking is fairly made as you’ve just demonstrated, and it’s not you that’s “ridiculed” but rather your attempts to arguments that are falsified. The closest you come to ridicule is the response you receive when your dishonesty is too dull to deal with any more.   

[Dicky Underpants]

Yes Dicky but I can't help wondering whether you are arguing for another chain of eternal contingency? Where is the necessity here? and how do we spot it?

I understand that a lot of modern scientists are quite happy with the idea of eternal contingency - the world might have been other than it is, but it is as it is, and that's all there is to the matter. Which leads to an eternal causal chain, of course.
But theologians can't avoid all the implications of contingency, though many Christian theologians try to sidestep the ultimate problems, thinking that positing the Christian God as the causeless cause is the final answer to the matter.
The Christian God could well be contingent on another greater God, and so on ("turtles all the way down"). The Gnostics certainly thought so. You might think it an outrage for me to describe Christianity as parochial - nonetheless it seems so to me. A causeless being alone in eternity splits himself into three, and then suddenly decides to invent space and time. Then he creates some angels. These sing his praises for a few millenia until one can't stand the boredom. Sometime (here's the parochial bit) in the last few million years (or few thousand if the fundies are right) he gives intelligent awareness to some humanoids, who then (tempted by the bored angel) set in motion the aboriginal calamity, which involves the original Godhead squeezing himself into the person of a first century Jew, who then has to die horribly to restore diplomatic relations between humanity and said deity.

Well, we all like to think that we matter in the order of things, and no doubt somehow this fantastical scenario has provided the necessary vitamin to many. From the point of view of the theist, though, it could be a huge con. It's certainly so riddled with contradictions and so many varied interpretations that the idea that such a god is "not a god of confusion" is pretty hard to take. Now, I don't regard the Gnostic interpretation as true either, but in a theistic context it is more plausible. The whole schema of Christian scriptures and interpretations about humanity and the universe might amount to those being nothing more than the contents of a conjuror's cave, a huge joke perpetrated by an evil deity, who thinks he is the ultimate reality, not realising there is a greater reality sustaining his existence.
One could spin out this myth-making process indefinitely - and indeed the religions of the world have always done so. It is surely simpler to say ( pace Kant and Thomas Henry Huxley) that we can have no knowledge except of phenomena, and continue to investigate the phenomenal world. Anything 'beyond' is unknowable.

[Alan Burns]

This demonstrates the truly worrying trend of not recognising that the source of evil and its inherent dangers is god itself.  By worshipping god you are worshipping evil; very worrying that you cannot see that.

What evidence do you have for this claim?
The evil doers who have infiltrated the Christian Church are certainly not there to worship anything but themselves and follow their own self centred desires by succumbing to evil temptation.

[Dicky Underpants]

What evidence do you have for this claim?
The evil doers who have infiltrated the Christian Church are certainly not there to worship anything but themselves and follow their own self centred desires by succumbing to evil temptation.

Surely you are aware of Isaiah chapter 45?  The source of 'evil' is given numerous explanations, even in Judaeo/Christian scriptures. I get the impression that you still believe in a personal Devil ("evil temptation" in your post above"). If so, you are certainly not in a majority among your own fellow-believers. Indeed, trying to extrapolate the existence or the origin of the Devil from the Judaeo/Christian scriptures is a matter of some difficulty - particularly if you're looking for any source material in the Old Testament.

[torridon]

What evidence do you have for this claim?
The evil doers who have infiltrated the Christian Church are certainly not there to worship anything but themselves and follow their own self centred desires by succumbing to evil temptation.

It's in the Bible, and its mainstream christian teaching, that God is the creator of all things.  God created evil in the form of the Devil, and continues to tolerate evil;  that can only mean one of two things - either God is evil, or god is not the all powerful creator as claimed.  Either way, there is contradiction in the concept, simple enough evidence that the concept of god is fundamentally flawed. 

[Maeght]

A good question.

I believe God exists because I think deeply.

I think deeply about the theory of evolution.  And how people who look for reasons not to believe in God latch on to this theory, presuming that any amount of discovered complexity can be generated from the blind, unguided process of natural selection, which in essence is a crude fine tuning process which can increase survival chances for existing species.

I think deeply about my own conscious awareness, and the profound difficulty in trying to explain how material reactions alone can generate awareness of material reactions.

I think deeply about my ability to think deeply and direct my own thought processes to write this post.  And I conclude that physically predetermined material reactions can never generate my conscious ability to control my thoughts.

I think deeply about the short life of the son of a Jewish carpenter who lived most of his life in obscurity, was executed for blasphemy, left no written work of his own, yet became the most influential person in the history of the human race.

I think deeply about the constant persecution suffered by the Christian church which began with the birth of Christ, and the source of strength which helped the church survive to become the world's major religion.

I think deeply about people's spiritual needs.  I recall visits to Taizé in France where on Friday evenings, hundreds of young people from all over the world queue up until the early hours to talk about their spiritual lives with the Taizé brothers.

I think deeply about the inner peace and joy I perceive in many other Christians who have discovered the love of God in their earthly lives.  A love which enables them to endure whatever trials come before them.

I think deeply about the evil that exists in the world, and the truly worrying secular trend of not recognising the source of evil and its inherent dangers.

I think deeply about attempts to ridicule and trivialise every post I make on this forum - in particular being accused of not thinking!

I'm sure you think deeply about these things through the lens of your belief.

[Gordon]

A good question.

I believe God exists because I think deeply.

I think deeply about the theory of evolution.  And how people who look for reasons not to believe in God latch on to this theory, presuming that any amount of discovered complexity can be generated from the blind, unguided process of natural selection, which in essence is a crude fine tuning process which can increase survival chances for existing species.

I think deeply about my own conscious awareness, and the profound difficulty in trying to explain how material reactions alone can generate awareness of material reactions.

I think deeply about my ability to think deeply and direct my own thought processes to write this post.  And I conclude that physically predetermined material reactions can never generate my conscious ability to control my thoughts.

I think deeply about the short life of the son of a Jewish carpenter who lived most of his life in obscurity, was executed for blasphemy, left no written work of his own, yet became the most influential person in the history of the human race.

I think deeply about the constant persecution suffered by the Christian church which began with the birth of Christ, and the source of strength which helped the church survive to become the world's major religion.

I think deeply about people's spiritual needs.  I recall visits to Taizé in France where on Friday evenings, hundreds of young people from all over the world queue up until the early hours to talk about their spiritual lives with the Taizé brothers.

I think deeply about the inner peace and joy I perceive in many other Christians who have discovered the love of God in their earthly lives.  A love which enables them to endure whatever trials come before them.

I think deeply about the evil that exists in the world, and the truly worrying secular trend of not recognising the source of evil and its inherent dangers.

I think deeply about attempts to ridicule and trivialise every post I make on this forum - in particular being accused of not thinking!

You may think that you are 'thinking deeply', Alan, but the above car crash of a post shows that you are still thrashing about in the shallow-end.

[Walt Zingmatilder]

I understand that a lot of modern scientists are quite happy with the idea of eternal contingency - the world might have been other than it is, but it is as it is, and that's all there is to the matter.

An invocation of science but then the use of archaic philosophical term World. Do you mean Universe?

Yes scientists are concerned with the contingent professionally but happiness at the idea of eternal contingency can't come from their science but philosophy. Whether that is all there is to the matter for science is contentious since there is for them the question of the multiverse.

  Which leads to an eternal causal chain, of course.
But theologians can't avoid all the implications of contingency, though many Christian theologians try to sidestep the ultimate problems, thinking that positing the Christian God as the causeless cause is the final answer to the matter.

Having read this last bit is like reading a discourse on one sided coins in that there has been mention by you of contingency but nothing on necessity.

The Christian God could well be contingent on another greater God, and so on ("turtles all the way down"). The Gnostics certainly thought so.

Still nothing about necessity.

You might think it an outrage for me to describe Christianity as parochial - nonetheless it seems so to me.

No it seems outrageous that you have gone on about contingency without mentioning necessity
s

A causeless being alone in eternity splits himself into three, and then....

yes,yes,yes Let' put a little necessity into this. Yes God could be contingent but then God could also be the necessary being.


If the universe is the necessary being then it's necessity is not I would suggest defined by it's being the mother and father of contingent chains.


There are you see in theology what I believe are called Modal cosmological theories and the Kalam cosmological theory. New Atheists love the Kalam cosmological theory but seem not to understand the modal cosmological argument.


Modal arguments are quite happy with eternal contingent chains but do not see them as necessary. How can they be necessary if they are chains of contingency. There need be no need for an eternal chain for the necessary being since it is not contingent on anything else for it's being.

The necessary being therefore is independent of that which is dependent on itself, it cannot be one of many and so must be a unity. It cannot be restricted to time and space so it is hard to see what science would be looking for.
 

A causeless being alone in eternity splits himself into three, and then suddenly decides to invent space and time.

Kalam cosmological argument.....but going back to something you said at the beginning.

the world might have been other than it is, but it is as it is, and that's all there is to the matter.

This seems to be calling a contingent a necessary also. Not sure that is logical.

[Alan Burns]

It's in the Bible, and its mainstream christian teaching, that God is the creator of all things.  God created evil in the form of the Devil, and continues to tolerate evil;  that can only mean one of two things - either God is evil, or god is not the all powerful creator as claimed.  Either way, there is contradiction in the concept, simple enough evidence that the concept of god is fundamentally flawed.

You are totally wrong.
God did not create evil.
God is not evil.
God created beings with their own free will.  Freedom to choose between good and evil.
Beings without their own freedom to choose would be God's puppets.

[bluehillside Retd.]

AB,

You are totally wrong.
God did not create evil.
God is not evil.
God created beings with their own free will.  Freedom to choose between good and evil.
Beings without their own freedom to choose would be God's puppets.

So the babies in the Boxing Day tsunami who were washed away "chose evil" then did they?

Face it, the god of your bible is a psychopathic thug. Fortunately for all of us though there's no good reason to think he exists.

Incidentally, a few posts ago I dismantled your claim to think deeply about things. Presumably you intend to just ignore that too? 

[torridon]

You are totally wrong.
God did not create evil.
God is not evil.
God created beings with their own free will.  Freedom to choose between good and evil.
Beings without their own freedom to choose would be God's puppets.

The book of Isiah claims, in terms, that it is God that creates evil.  John's gospel recounts the same in different terms.  Do you know better than Isiah ?  That Lucifer continues to exist causing misery, suffering and confusion, is only because God wishes it so.  This is what scripture claims, you are just cherry picking your way around it, trying to put the blame on humans when it is God that is the creator of all things.

[Roses]

You are totally wrong.
God did not create evil.
God is not evil.
God created beings with their own free will.  Freedom to choose between good and evil.
Beings without their own freedom to choose would be God's puppets.

Don't be silly, god is supposed to have created everything so it created evil as well. You have put your logical thinking in the safe and have lost the key!

[Maeght]

Don't be silly, god is supposed to have created everything so it created evil as well.

Guess depends how you define evil. If it is some fundamental force then that is a fair comment. If it is the actions of individuals created by God but given freedom to act as they desire without interference from God then its not.

[BeRational]

Guess how you define evil. If it is some fundamental force then that is a fair comment. If it is the actions of individuals created by God but given freedom to act as they desire without interference from God then its not.

But he has perfect knowledge of the future?

If so, then he knew every decision that would be made, so he is responsible given that he could have created the start conditions differently to achieve a different outcome.

[Alan Burns]

Incidentally, a few posts ago I dismantled your claim to think deeply about things. Presumably you intend to just ignore that too?

I am quite capable of finding reasons to contradict every one of the points you made, and no doubt you will once again show that you are capable of finding reasons to contradict my chosen contradictions.  And so it goes on ad infinitum to add yet more posts to this ever increasing thread.  Yet in all this you stick to your belief that all these arguments and counter arguments will ultimately be derived from the consequences of predetermined physical reactions.  Can you not see the absurdity of one set of predetermined physical reactions apparently arguing against another set of predetermined physical reactions?  Can you not see the reality that there has to be something in control of each set of physical reactions in order to generate these consciously driven altercations? It is the conscious you arguing against the conscious me by consciously manipulating the physical machinery in our material brains.  You can look upon it as little men at the controls if you like, but it makes far more sense than two machines on autopilot trying to outdo each other.

[Alan Burns]

Surely you are aware of Isaiah chapter 47?  The source of 'evil' is given numerous explanations, even in Judaeo/Christian scriptures. I get the impression that you still believe in a personal Devil ("evil temptation" in your post above"). If so, you are certainly not in a majority among your own fellow-believers. Indeed, trying to extrapolate the existence or the origin of the Devil from the Judaeo/Christian scriptures is a matter of some difficulty - particularly if you're looking for any source material in the Old Testament.

The devil existing as a separate entity from God is clearly illustrated in book 1 of the old testament and in the description of Christ's temptations during forty days in the wilderness.  The Christian bible illustrates that this world has fallen under the power of the evil one, and God has achieved victory over this evil through the suffering and death of Jesus.  But evil still exists and in order to be delivered from the power of evil we need to accept Jesus as our Lord and Saviour.

We are currently in the season of Lent, in which we are encouraged to practise self denial in order to strengthen us against the temptations of evil.  Humans have been given the freedom to choose, and we often succumb to temptation by doing something which we know to be wrong, yet we still do it.

I agree that there are now many Christians who no longer believe in the devil - and it worries me.  It also worries many of my fellow Christians including our local priest.  It is the Devil's greatest ploy to convince people that it does not exist.

[Roses]

The devil existing as a separate entity from God is clearly illustrated in book 1 of the old testament and in the description of Christ's temptations during forty days in the wilderness.  The Christian bible illustrates that this world has fallen under the power of the evil one, and God has achieved victory over this evil through the suffering and death of Jesus.  But evil still exists and in order to be delivered from the power of evil we need to accept Jesus as our Lord and Saviour.

We are currently in the season of Lent, in which we are encouraged to practise self denial in order to strengthen us against the temptations of evil.  Humans have been given the freedom to choose, and we often succumb to temptation by doing something which we know to be wrong, yet we still do it.

I agree that there are now many Christians who no longer believe in the devil - and it worries me.  It also worries many of my fellow Christians including our local priest.  It is the Devil's greatest ploy to convince people that it does not exist.

So who created dear old Satan? The Bible says a lot of less than credible things, which Biblical literalists who consign logic to the dustbin take seriously!

If you feel the need to deny yourself something for Lent, why don't you give up this thread.

[Bramble]

You are totally wrong.
God did not create evil.
God is not evil.
God created beings with their own free will.  Freedom to choose between good and evil.
Beings without their own freedom to choose would be God's puppets.

Not sure how there can be good without evil so presumably if God is to be good there must be evil - the two go together like up and down - and if God is just one side of the coin then he is a limited being. This wasn't lost on theologians like Aquinas who acknowledged that when we assign attributes like good to God we actually have no idea what we even mean.

[SusanDoris]

The devil existing as a separate entity from God is clearly illustrated in book 1 of the old testament and in the description of Christ's temptations during forty days in the wilderness.  The Christian bible illustrates that this world has fallen under the power of the evil one, and God has achieved victory over this evil through the suffering and death of Jesus.  But evil still exists and in order to be delivered from the power of evil we need to accept Jesus as our Lord and Saviour.

We are currently in the season of Lent, in which we are encouraged to practise self denial in order to strengthen us against the temptations of evil.  Humans have been given the freedom to choose, and we often succumb to temptation by doing something which we know to be wrong, yet we still do it.

I agree that there are now many Christians who no longer believe in the devil - and it worries me.  It also worries many of my fellow Christians including our local priest.  It is the Devil's greatest ploy to convince people that it does not exist.

What complete rubbish you do post. Just skimming through that is enough to set my teeth on edge.