Author Topic: Searching for GOD...  (Read 3908071 times)

torridon

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #35675 on: April 03, 2019, 01:26:44 PM »
The devil existing as a separate entity from God is clearly illustrated in book 1 of the old testament and in the description of Christ's temptations during forty days in the wilderness.  The Christian bible illustrates that this world has fallen under the power of the evil one, and God has achieved victory over this evil through the suffering and death of Jesus.  But evil still exists and in order to be delivered from the power of evil we need to accept Jesus as our Lord and Saviour.

So why doesn't God just get rid of the Devil ?  Surely that would be simpler.  In your scenario people who have never heard of Jesus are stuffed, they are at the mercy of the power of evil all because of God's shortsightedness.  So, why doesn't God just get rid of the Devil and then everyone is safe not just the lucky few ?

torridon

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #35676 on: April 03, 2019, 01:30:25 PM »
I am quite capable of finding reasons to contradict every one of the points you made, and no doubt you will once again show that you are capable of finding reasons to contradict my chosen contradictions.  And so it goes on ad infinitum to add yet more posts to this ever increasing thread.  Yet in all this you stick to your belief that all these arguments and counter arguments will ultimately be derived from the consequences of predetermined physical reactions.  Can you not see the absurdity of one set of predetermined physical reactions apparently arguing against another set of predetermined physical reactions?  Can you not see the reality that there has to be something in control of each set of physical reactions in order to generate these consciously driven altercations? It is the conscious you arguing against the conscious me by consciously manipulating the physical machinery in our material brains.  You can look upon it as little men at the controls if you like, but it makes far more sense than two machines on autopilot trying to outdo each other.

No it doesn't.  The problem with the 'little man at the controls' is that it evades understanding by splicing in an infinite regress.  Any little man at the controls would need its own little man at the controls in turn.

bluehillside Retd.

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #35677 on: April 03, 2019, 01:39:06 PM »
AB,

Quote
I am quite capable of finding reasons to contradict every one of the points you made, and no doubt you will once again show that you are capable of finding reasons to contradict my chosen contradictions.

But that’s not true is it. You’re not capable of that at all - or at least if you are you’ve never shown any inclination to do it up to now. Instead you attempt arguments that are logically false. Some of us take the time to explain to you why they’re false. Rather than deal with the problem though, you just repeat the same false arguments as if they hadn’t been falsified.

This must be because you simply can’t process reason-based argument, or you can but your a priori religious beliefs make it impossible for you to be honest.   
 
Quote
And so it goes on ad infinitum to add yet more posts to this ever increasing thread.

Yes, but that’s a “so it goes on” only because you won’t address the problems you give yourself. Stop doing that and you might actually learn something.   

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Yet in all this you stick to your belief that all these arguments and counter arguments will ultimately be derived from the consequences of predetermined physical reactions.

“Determined”, not “predetermined” remember?
 
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Can you not…

When you begin a sentence with “can you not” it usually means you’re about to fall into one of your bigger mistakes. Let’s see shall we?

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…see the absurdity of one set of predetermined physical reactions apparently arguing against another set of predetermined physical reactions?

Sure enough you did. Within our relatively narrow perception of consciousness there’s nothing absurd about that at all. That’s why our lives have meaning to us. When you overreach into thinking there must be some sort of universal importance in the discussions our tiny, obscure, insignificant little species has then that is absurd. Shakespeare as always put it best:

Out, out, brief candle! Life's but a walking shadow, a poor player that struts and frets his hour upon the stage and is heard no more. It is a tale told by an idiot, full of sound and fury, signifying nothing.

(Macbeth)

Quote
Can you not see the reality that there has to be something in control of each set of physical reactions in order to generate these consciously driven altercations? It is the conscious you arguing against the conscious me by consciously manipulating the physical machinery in our material brains.  You can look upon it as little men at the controls if you like, but it makes far more sense than two machines on autopilot trying to outdo each other.

Can you not see that this is fundamentally a flawed idea that’s tells us not only that the author doesn’t “think deeply”, but barely thinks at all? If you want to assert a gap that isn’t there and fill it with a “controller” about which you have no information of any kind and that apparently functions by magic then you exit any sort of discussion between grown ups.     
« Last Edit: April 03, 2019, 05:49:25 PM by bluehillside Retd. »
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Alan Burns

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #35678 on: April 03, 2019, 06:38:44 PM »
No it doesn't.  The problem with the 'little man at the controls' is that it evades understanding by splicing in an infinite regress.  Any little man at the controls would need its own little man at the controls in turn.
Why?
Do you really think your spiritual soul would be restricted to the same mechanical cause and effect as material elements?
The truth will set you free  - John 8:32
Truth is not an abstraction, but a person - Edith Stein
Free will, though it makes evil possible, is also the only thing that makes possible any love or goodness or joy worth having. - CS Lewis
Joy is the Gigantic Secret of Christians - GK Chesterton

Sebastian Toe

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #35679 on: April 03, 2019, 06:47:35 PM »
Why?
Do you really think your spiritual soul would be restricted to the same mechanical cause and effect as material elements?
It would need a spiritual man at the controls, using spiritual cause and spiritual effect. Can you prove that it doesn't?
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Alan Burns

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #35680 on: April 03, 2019, 06:53:11 PM »
So why doesn't God just get rid of the Devil ?  Surely that would be simpler.  In your scenario people who have never heard of Jesus are stuffed, they are at the mercy of the power of evil all because of God's shortsightedness.  So, why doesn't God just get rid of the Devil and then everyone is safe not just the lucky few ?
I think you will need to look hard for someone who has never heard of Jesus. but if you did and that person had genuinely no opportunity to know Jesus, of course they could not be condemned.  But I would imagine that people who know of Jesus and deliberately ignore or seek reasons to reject His teaching would not be welcome in heaven.

If dealing with the Devil was as simple as you think, it would not have been necessary for Jesus to suffer and die in order to redeem our souls.
The truth will set you free  - John 8:32
Truth is not an abstraction, but a person - Edith Stein
Free will, though it makes evil possible, is also the only thing that makes possible any love or goodness or joy worth having. - CS Lewis
Joy is the Gigantic Secret of Christians - GK Chesterton

Alan Burns

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #35681 on: April 03, 2019, 06:56:38 PM »
It would need a spiritual man at the controls, using spiritual cause and spiritual effect. Can you prove that it doesn't?
My demonstrable ability to direct my own thoughts offers sufficient proof.  No need for an endless regression of spiritual cause and effect.  I am the cause.
The truth will set you free  - John 8:32
Truth is not an abstraction, but a person - Edith Stein
Free will, though it makes evil possible, is also the only thing that makes possible any love or goodness or joy worth having. - CS Lewis
Joy is the Gigantic Secret of Christians - GK Chesterton

Alan Burns

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #35682 on: April 03, 2019, 07:04:11 PM »
Within our relatively narrow perception of consciousness there’s nothing absurd about that at all. That’s why our lives have meaning to us. When you overreach into thinking there must be some sort of universal importance in the discussions our tiny, obscure, insignificant little species has then that is absurd. Shakespeare as always put it best:

Out, out, brief candle! Life's but a walking shadow, a poor player that struts and frets his hour upon the stage and is heard no more. It is a tale told by an idiot, full of sound and fury, signifying nothing.

(Macbeth)

You underestimate yourself, Blue.  Your soul is capable of far more than a material universe could ever achieve, because you can think and act according to your own will - not just react according to the inevitable consequences of physical reactions.
The truth will set you free  - John 8:32
Truth is not an abstraction, but a person - Edith Stein
Free will, though it makes evil possible, is also the only thing that makes possible any love or goodness or joy worth having. - CS Lewis
Joy is the Gigantic Secret of Christians - GK Chesterton

Sebastian Toe

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #35683 on: April 03, 2019, 07:12:01 PM »
My demonstrable ability to direct my own thoughts offers sufficient proof.  No need for an endless regression of spiritual cause and effect.  I am the cause.
You could be demonstrating your soul being spiritually  driven by a controlling soul which makes all of the spiritual decisions and your number one soul makes all of the physical world decisions.
Is a perfectly plausible theory, one which you cannot disprove.
You might find it unconvincing but then you would wouldn't you.
"The word God is for me nothing more than the expression and product of human weaknesses, the Bible a collection of honourable, but still primitive legends.'
Albert Einstein

Sebastian Toe

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #35684 on: April 03, 2019, 07:26:30 PM »

If dealing with the Devil was as simple as you think, it would not have been necessary for Jesus to suffer and die in order to redeem our souls.
Can anybody deal with the Devil?
How would you go about it?

In fact, how does the Devil exactly cause evil?
By what means does he do it?
"The word God is for me nothing more than the expression and product of human weaknesses, the Bible a collection of honourable, but still primitive legends.'
Albert Einstein

torridon

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #35685 on: April 03, 2019, 07:33:43 PM »
Why?
Do you really think your spiritual soul would be restricted to the same mechanical cause and effect as material elements?

'Mechanical' and 'material' are just your old red herrings getting an outing.  It is about logic, not matter.

The whole business of inventing a little man at the controls is an evasion of understanding.   It is placing what we could understand of decision making if we try hard enough into a little circle of mystery.

Your explanation for how an entity makes decisions is that it must have a decision-making entity living inside it.  Can you not understand that is a non-explanation ?  We can't understand decision making, therefore an entity must have a mysterious decision making entity inside it.  Oh, please.

It is quite simple, at base : decisions arise out of the competition between rival desires. Whichever desire is the strongest, wins the day.   What is so hard about that ?  If you insist that there must be some arbiter sitting like a judge in a courtroom then you have to explain how that judge does his arbitration. 

In the absence of real explanation, you are just indulging magical thinking.

jeremyp

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #35686 on: April 03, 2019, 07:51:29 PM »
The devil existing as a separate entity from God is clearly illustrated in book 1 of the old testament
No it isn’t. I hope you’re not thinking of the Serpent, because there is no evidence to suggest that the Serpent and the Devil are the same thing.

Even so, if God did not create the Devil, who did?
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BeRational

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #35687 on: April 03, 2019, 10:32:48 PM »
I think you will need to look hard for someone who has never heard of Jesus. but if you did and that person had genuinely no opportunity to know Jesus, of course they could not be condemned.  But I would imagine that people who know of Jesus and deliberately ignore or seek reasons to reject His teaching would not be welcome in heaven.

If dealing with the Devil was as simple as you think, it would not have been necessary for Jesus to suffer and die in order to redeem our souls.

Is it too hard for your god to deal with the devil?

Is god not capable of doing it?
I see gullible people, everywhere!

torridon

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #35688 on: April 04, 2019, 06:05:52 AM »
If dealing with the Devil was as simple as you think, it would not have been necessary for Jesus to suffer and die in order to redeem our souls.

Why does that make any sense ?  Is it too hard for an almighty God to deal with the problems he spawned.  You are rejecting the notion that God is all-powerful, then  He is someone that would do the right thing if only it was within his limited power.  Strange that he could eliminate all humans on Earth bar one privileged family by drowning but he cannot eliminate a single angel gone rogue. And so the suffering has to go on.  Pull the other one, you're just indulging sordid apologetics; the buck stops with those in power, a god that tolerates evil is evil by definition.

torridon

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #35689 on: April 04, 2019, 06:07:25 AM »
My demonstrable ability to direct my own thoughts offers sufficient proof.  No need for an endless regression of spiritual cause and effect.  I am the cause.

You cannot be your own cause.  Can you really not see that is circular ?

torridon

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #35690 on: April 04, 2019, 06:14:24 AM »
I think you will need to look hard for someone who has never heard of Jesus. but if you did and that person had genuinely no opportunity to know Jesus, of course they could not be condemned.  But I would imagine that people who know of Jesus and deliberately ignore or seek reasons to reject His teaching would not be welcome in heaven.

So how does that leave people who find that teaching flawed ?  How does that leave muslims who find aspects of Christian theology offensive to god ?  How does that leave atheists who find the whole business bonkers from start to finish ?  How does that leave people who deliberately ignore or seek reasons to reject His teaching because they have been seduced by the power of the Devil, that very same Devil that God tolerates, thereby implicitly endorsing his seduction ?

Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #35691 on: April 04, 2019, 07:43:19 AM »
So how does that leave people who find that teaching flawed ?  How does that leave muslims who find aspects of Christian theology offensive to god ?  How does that leave atheists who find the whole business bonkers from start to finish ?  How does that leave people who deliberately ignore or seek reasons to reject His teaching because they have been seduced by the power of the Devil, that very same Devil that God tolerates, thereby implicitly endorsing his seduction ?
Regarding atheism and God CSLewis could not see God rejecting people on intellectual grounds.......and of course  there are those who might be in the atheist camp but are actually seeking........but how often do we hear atheists declare they dont want God? Certainly for me that is several on forums i am familiar with......and one or two celebrity examples too vis Krauss and Nagel.

An atheist who is concerned about divine rejection shòuld be examinig their feelings I would move.

Maeght

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #35692 on: April 04, 2019, 07:45:51 AM »
Regarding atheism and God CSLewis could not see God rejecting people on intellectual grounds.......and of course  there are those who might be in the atheist camp but are actually seeking........but how often do we hear atheists declare they dont want God? Certainly for me that is several on forums i am familiar with......and one or two celebrity examples too vis Krauss and Nagel.

An atheist who is concerned about divine rejection shòuld be examinig their feelings I would move.

Never heard an atheist say they don't want God. That would suggest someone believes in God but deosn't want God to be part of their life, which means they wouldn't be an atheist as they believe in God. Can you give a quote?

Roses

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #35693 on: April 04, 2019, 08:15:37 AM »
I reject the Biblical god as it comes over as a crazed psychopath, and hope to goodness it doesn't actually exist. I consider myself to be an agnostic.
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Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #35694 on: April 04, 2019, 08:20:24 AM »
Never heard an atheist say they don't want God. That would suggest someone believes in God but deosn't want God to be part of their life, which means they wouldn't be an atheist as they believe in God. Can you give a quote?
I have mentioned Krauss and Nagel not so much of course i shall track down those quotes. Also, Floo has left many God rejection sentiments on this forum.

Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #35695 on: April 04, 2019, 08:22:26 AM »
I reject the Biblical god as it comes over as a crazed psychopath, and hope to goodness it doesn't actually exist. I consider myself to be an agnostic.
Would this rejection of what you see as the Biblical God colour your view of any God?

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #35696 on: April 04, 2019, 08:42:05 AM »
I reject the Biblical god as it comes over as a crazed psychopath, and hope to goodness it doesn't actually exist. I consider myself to be an agnostic.
In part because you don't really understand the term.

Roses

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #35697 on: April 04, 2019, 08:56:03 AM »
In part because you don't really understand the term.


The term means having a personality disorder, the Biblical god could also be termed as a sociopath.
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Nearly Sane

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #35698 on: April 04, 2019, 09:06:04 AM »

The term means having a personality disorder, the Biblical god could also be termed as a sociopath.
Er no, agnostic doesn't mean that

bluehillside Retd.

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #35699 on: April 04, 2019, 09:11:28 AM »
AB,

Quote
You underestimate yourself, Blue.  Your soul is capable of far more than a material universe could ever achieve, because you can think and act according to your own will - not just react according to the inevitable consequences of physical reactions.

Except of course you have conveniently forgotten again that your only arguments for there being a “soul” at all are hopeless, only you won’t ever address the explanations for why they’re hopeless so as to skip the validation stage. That way you can jump straight to whatever bizarre properties you want to attach to this supposed soul. You’re doing the equivalent of me telling you that I know you were well-behaved last year because Father Christmas brought you some presents.

Do you not think we should trouble to demonstrate soul/Father Christmas before making claims about these things?   
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