Author Topic: Searching for GOD...  (Read 3909267 times)

Enki

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3870
Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #35950 on: June 01, 2019, 04:00:20 PM »
If the source of my conscious choices was detectable by human scientific investigation, it would not be a conscious choice - just an unavoidable reaction driven by the laws of science (not by me).

Actually, unless you have evidence to the contrary, the source of your conscious choice is the brain for which there is ample evidence(e.g. when the brain dies, consciousness dies). Whereas all you have is an idea which you have agreed cannot be anything but an idea, because it is undetectable.

'Conscious choice' simply means that you are aware of the fact that you are choosing between two or more possibilities. It says nothing about how that choice is made and therefore there is no reason to think that it is not the product of 'unavoidable reaction(s)' especially as a) there is nothing to suggest other than that the brain makes these choices(your alternative is 'undetectable' remember). And b) even if your 'undetectable source' was found it would still logically have to have a deterministic process which controls it as you have rejected randomness, which is the only other alternative.

Finally, as far as we can tell, we are products of the laws of science, hence we must be driven by them, unless, of course, you can give some evidence that suggests  something other than the laws of science have contributed to what you call 'me'.

It seems to me that you are not only batting on a sticky wicket, but you are stuck there in a quagmire of your own making.
Sometimes I wish my first word was 'quote,' so that on my death bed, my last words could be 'end quote.'
Steven Wright

Gordon

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 18277
Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #35951 on: June 01, 2019, 04:51:52 PM »
If the source of my conscious choices was detectable by human scientific investigation, it would not be a conscious choice - just an unavoidable reaction driven by the laws of science (not by me).

Best guess to date is that consciousness is a function of the human brain: human brains are clearly detectable, much is already known about how they operate and research continues. So it seems likely that we are all at the behest of the 'laws of science' even if it doesn't feel that way when you are deciding whether to have Corn Flakes or Weetabix for breakfast.

 

Nearly Sane

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 64396
Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #35952 on: June 01, 2019, 05:34:27 PM »

So in other words you make a conscious choice to believe in your take on faith, even though you have no viable evidence to substantiate it.
We don't choose beliefs

SteveH

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 10418
  • God? She's black.
Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #35953 on: June 01, 2019, 06:32:31 PM »
We don't choose beliefs
That's not necessarily true. Someone may think that there is some evidence for God, but not enough to be completely convincing, but choose to believe in God, or indeed in anything for which the evidence for or against is about even.
I once tried using "chicken" as a password, but was told it must contain a capital so I tried "chickenkiev"
On another occasion, I tried "beefstew", but was told it wasn't stroganoff.

Nearly Sane

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 64396
Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #35954 on: June 01, 2019, 06:36:02 PM »
That's not necessarily true. Someone may think that there is some evidence for God, but not enough to be completely convincing, but choose to believe in God, or indeed in anything for which the evidence for or against is about even.
This just causes an infinite regress because in order to choose what you believe you would have to choose that that choice was the right choice and that the choice to believe that that was the right choice was the right choice etc etc...

SteveH

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 10418
  • God? She's black.
Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #35955 on: June 01, 2019, 06:52:50 PM »
This just causes an infinite regress because in order to choose what you believe you would have to choose that that choice was the right choice and that the choice to believe that that was the right choice was the right choice etc etc...
No, you wouldn't. You could simply decide to believe. Lots of people do.
I once tried using "chicken" as a password, but was told it must contain a capital so I tried "chickenkiev"
On another occasion, I tried "beefstew", but was told it wasn't stroganoff.

Walter

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4463
Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #35956 on: June 01, 2019, 06:56:11 PM »
We don't choose beliefs
I believe you are wrong .

Nearly Sane

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 64396
Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #35957 on: June 01, 2019, 06:56:56 PM »
No, you wouldn't. You could simply decide to believe. Lots of people do.
How, if you don't decide to believe that is the right thing etc. It's your position that causes a logical problem. You  don't avoid that by simply trying a 'common sense ' argument that denies the logic.

Nearly Sane

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 64396
Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #35958 on: June 01, 2019, 06:57:28 PM »
I believe you are wrong .
And you cannot help doing so

Walter

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4463
Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #35959 on: June 01, 2019, 07:02:04 PM »
And you cannot help doing so
But I could change my mind if new evidence came to light .

Nearly Sane

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 64396
Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #35960 on: June 01, 2019, 07:10:47 PM »
But I could change my mind if new evidence came to light .
Your mind would change. You can't help that. There is a choice but it is inevitable - see Searching for God above ad infinitum about free will.

Walter

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4463
Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #35961 on: June 01, 2019, 07:18:41 PM »
Your mind would change. You can't help that. There is a choice but it is inevitable - see Searching for God above ad infinitum about free will.
don't think I will . This thread bores the shit out of me . I only posted on it because I'm in a bad mood  >:(

Nearly Sane

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 64396
Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #35962 on: June 01, 2019, 07:20:07 PM »
don't think I will . This thread bores the shit out of me . I only posted on it because I'm in a bad mood  >:(
You ok, hun?

Walter

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4463
Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #35963 on: June 01, 2019, 07:24:52 PM »

Nearly Sane

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 64396
Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #35964 on: June 01, 2019, 07:27:30 PM »
I need a cuddle  :'(
Big hugs. Come up to Glasgow

Alan Burns

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 10216
  • I lay it down of my own free will. John 10:18
Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #35965 on: June 01, 2019, 07:27:59 PM »
If there were any evidence for free will, presumably you would have shared that already.  Instead all we get is such as the above, you tieing yourself in knots, trying to wordify a fundamentally incoherent claim.
But my perception is that it is the materialists trying to wordify how the reality of our freedom to consciously choose can be explained away by using such expressions as "agency" or "emergent property".
The truth will set you free  - John 8:32
Truth is not an abstraction, but a person - Edith Stein
Free will, though it makes evil possible, is also the only thing that makes possible any love or goodness or joy worth having. - CS Lewis
Joy is the Gigantic Secret of Christians - GK Chesterton

Walter

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4463
Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #35966 on: June 01, 2019, 07:34:12 PM »
Big hugs. Come up to Glasgow
sounds lovely but I've been off the road for a few weeks after a minor collision and getting my van fixed is proving more complicated than I first thought and it's getting me down now .

Nearly Sane

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 64396
Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #35967 on: June 01, 2019, 07:54:58 PM »
sounds lovely but I've been off the road for a few weeks after a minor collision and getting my van fixed is proving more complicated than I first thought and it's getting me down now .
Take care. Had lovely lunch with Gordon here in Friday


http://babbitybowster.com

Walter

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4463
Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #35968 on: June 01, 2019, 08:05:12 PM »
Take care. Had lovely lunch with Gordon here in Friday


http://babbitybowster.com
that looks lovely , doubt they'd let me in though  8)

btw , I still intend to come up at some point  :)

jeremyp

  • Admin Support
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 32541
  • Blurb
    • Sincere Flattery: A blog about computing
Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #35969 on: June 01, 2019, 08:10:33 PM »
was someone forcing you . ? you could have stopped at any time . That's the thing with books , if you don't turn the page , it ends there.
TOP TIP,
I always read the last sentence first . If it says 'and they all lived happily ever after' , I start at the beginning knowing I'm not going to waste my time
I used to have a rule that, if I started a book, I would finish it, no matter how awful it was (NB, I've never read any of Dean Koontz's books, so I'll take NS's word for it in his case).

I rescinded the rule somewhere in the middle of Foucault's Pendulum.
This post and all of JeremyP's posts words certified 100% divinely inspired* -- signed God.
*Platinum infallibility package, terms and conditions may apply

jeremyp

  • Admin Support
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 32541
  • Blurb
    • Sincere Flattery: A blog about computing
Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #35970 on: June 01, 2019, 08:11:37 PM »
Well, as I've asked numerous times, and not had a reply, if we have no free will, we were eternally predestined to believe what we believe, so how can we know our beliefs are true?

How does not having free will preclude you from examining the evidence?
This post and all of JeremyP's posts words certified 100% divinely inspired* -- signed God.
*Platinum infallibility package, terms and conditions may apply

jeremyp

  • Admin Support
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 32541
  • Blurb
    • Sincere Flattery: A blog about computing
Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #35971 on: June 01, 2019, 08:19:16 PM »
If the source of my conscious choices was detectable by human scientific investigation, it would not be a conscious choice - just an unavoidable reaction driven by the laws of science (not by me).
How do you know it isn't detectable by human scientific investigation, at least in principle? You don't

If, as I believe, human consciousness and agency is an emergent property of the organisation of the brain, it is, in principle (but not currently in practice), possible to predict your choices by observing the activity of your neurones. What happens when we invent the brain scanning helmet, put it on your head and can predict all your choices before observing you making them?
This post and all of JeremyP's posts words certified 100% divinely inspired* -- signed God.
*Platinum infallibility package, terms and conditions may apply

Walter

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4463
Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #35972 on: June 01, 2019, 10:37:50 PM »
I used to have a rule that, if I started a book, I would finish it, no matter how awful it was (NB, I've never read any of Dean Koontz's books, so I'll take NS's word for it in his case).

I rescinded the rule somewhere in the middle of Foucault's Pendulum.
don't blame you, too much toing and froing for my liking

Alan Burns

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 10216
  • I lay it down of my own free will. John 10:18
Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #35973 on: June 01, 2019, 11:10:48 PM »
How do you know it isn't detectable by human scientific investigation, at least in principle? You don't

If, as I believe, human consciousness and agency is an emergent property of the organisation of the brain, it is, in principle (but not currently in practice), possible to predict your choices by observing the activity of your neurones. What happens when we invent the brain scanning helmet, put it on your head and can predict all your choices before observing you making them?
But can you not see the absurdity in presuming you can do all this investigation without having the free will to do it?
The truth will set you free  - John 8:32
Truth is not an abstraction, but a person - Edith Stein
Free will, though it makes evil possible, is also the only thing that makes possible any love or goodness or joy worth having. - CS Lewis
Joy is the Gigantic Secret of Christians - GK Chesterton

torridon

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 10210
Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #35974 on: June 02, 2019, 06:05:54 AM »
But can you not see the absurdity in presuming you can do all this investigation without having the free will to do it?

No, you can do investigate simply because you want to.  Nothing absurd about that, we all do things that we want to do, all the time.

What is absurd, is to claim that we can be 'free' of what we want.  It is that notion that really makes no sense.