Author Topic: Searching for GOD...  (Read 3909642 times)

Nearly Sane

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #36050 on: June 04, 2019, 07:48:43 PM »
Another example of simplistic thinking based upon endless chains of mechanistic physical cause and effect in which there can be no causal event.
In what way is it simplistic? You need to show your work. And that you have as ever ignored logic makes your comment specious.

Gordon

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #36051 on: June 04, 2019, 08:15:46 PM »
You try to diminish the amazing gift of human free will by comparing it to making a choice between Corn Flakes or Weetabix!

Leaving aside that your 'amazing gift of free will' is, as ever, irrational bollocks the choice between Cornflakes and Weetabix is still a choice, albeit a trivial one (though the manufacturers of breakfast cereals would no doubt disagree) - and since I like both, then that I might prefer one over the other at any given time may well involve my unconscious influencing what seems to me to a choice I'm making, but maybe it only seems that way.

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It is the gift of human free will which is the driving force behind all the amazing works of human creativity and scientific investigations.

No it isn't, since 'free will' as you envisage it is nonsense, as has been pointed out to you many times.

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It also opens the door to eternal salvation of the human soul by being able to accept Jesus as our Saviour.

Now you're being silly.

torridon

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #36052 on: June 04, 2019, 08:19:27 PM »
Falsifications which I have answered countless times because they do not explain my conscious freedom to compose such answers.  It is not "just the way it seems".  It is the way it is.

That's just assertion.  Do you have any evidence to back it up ?.

Alan Burns

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #36053 on: June 04, 2019, 11:08:21 PM »

Try this: try to grasp just for a minute the rational explanation – ie, that your experience of “free” will is only a convenient fiction that’s functionally useful but nothing more. Without collapsing yet again into a logical fallacy, what argument or evidence wold you point to that would invalidate that explanation?   
But our free will is not just a "convenient fiction that’s functionally useful but nothing more".  Fiction does not exist in real life, but my conscious ability to choose is a reality.  It is the reality which defines me.  I am my conscious self - not a physically predetermined reaction. 

The truth will set you free  - John 8:32
Truth is not an abstraction, but a person - Edith Stein
Free will, though it makes evil possible, is also the only thing that makes possible any love or goodness or joy worth having. - CS Lewis
Joy is the Gigantic Secret of Christians - GK Chesterton

torridon

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #36054 on: June 05, 2019, 06:11:36 AM »
But our free will is not just a "convenient fiction that’s functionally useful but nothing more".  Fiction does not exist in real life, but my conscious ability to choose is a reality.  It is the reality which defines me.  I am my conscious self - not a physically predetermined reaction.

I gave you an analogy from Springwatch for how choice is resolved without appeals to magical thinking and without incurring an infinite regress.  You don't accept that, OK, so step up and give your explanation for how an autonomous agent resolves choice in the face of competing desires.

Sriram

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #36055 on: June 05, 2019, 06:43:19 AM »
I gave you an analogy from Springwatch for how choice is resolved without appeals to magical thinking and without incurring an infinite regress.  You don't accept that, OK, so step up and give your explanation for how an autonomous agent resolves choice in the face of competing desires.


What is 'magical thinking'?  How is randomness that leads to complexity not 'magical'? Why is 'emergence' not magic?

How do you avoid Infinite Regress in scientific theories of the universe?

torridon

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #36056 on: June 05, 2019, 07:04:09 AM »

What is 'magical thinking'?  How is randomness that leads to complexity not 'magical'? Why is 'emergence' not magic?

How do you avoid Infinite Regress in scientific theories of the universe?

You are free to make the case for emergence or complexity being magic, if you want.

Sriram

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #36057 on: June 05, 2019, 07:12:25 AM »
You are free to make the case for emergence or complexity being magic, if you want.


I am not making the case for anything. I am merely saying that lots of things that are obviously remarkable such as 'emergence' cannot be brushed away as 'scientific'...just because we use a label given by scientists. That is the Two Boxes syndrome.

There is lot of 'magic' in the universe and in our lives. We just need to see it.   

torridon

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #36058 on: June 05, 2019, 07:43:38 AM »

I am not making the case for anything. I am merely saying that lots of things that are obviously remarkable such as 'emergence' cannot be brushed away as 'scientific'...just because we use a label given by scientists. That is the Two Boxes syndrome.

There is lot of 'magic' in the universe and in our lives. We just need to see it.

'Remarkable' need not equate to 'magical'.  'Remarkable' may better mean 'needs explanation' and if you want to talk about two boxes, I would say that there are two psychological camps here, one that sees something remarkable and wants to understand it; the other camp prefers the mystery to remain and is happy to settle for 'magic'.  The second camp epitomises willful ignorance, the first camp chooses mundane reality over the bliss of ignorance.

bluehillside Retd.

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #36059 on: June 05, 2019, 09:23:22 AM »
AB,

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But our free will is not just a "convenient fiction that’s functionally useful but nothing more".  Fiction does not exist in real life, but my conscious ability to choose is a reality.  It is the reality which defines me.  I am my conscious self - not a physically predetermined reaction. 

Jeepers but you struggle. The "convenient fiction" is the story, the narrative, the explanation you settle for about what your experience of free will must consist of. That the story ignores or contradicts the reasoning and evidence that unravels it troubles you not a jot - you just keep asserting "it feels free, therefore it must be free" and that, for you, is all you need to know - or rather perhaps all you want to know.

Bizarrely, you then have the sheer front to tell other people that it's their thinking that's simplistic or some some such  :o     
« Last Edit: June 05, 2019, 10:03:32 AM by bluehillside Retd. »
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God

bluehillside Retd.

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #36060 on: June 05, 2019, 10:11:11 AM »
Sriram,

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I am not making the case for anything. I am merely saying that lots of things that are obviously remarkable such as 'emergence' cannot be brushed away as 'scientific'...just because we use a label given by scientists. That is the Two Boxes syndrome.

No-one “brushes away” anything. Rather what we have is a method that maps to the observable world and so provides working explanations. That’s why we know that taking the stairs will get us more safely to the ground than will jumping out of the window. There’s no “label” given by “scientists” or by anyone else – either the method provides a verifiable truth or it doesn’t. Anything else is guessing.       

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There is lot of 'magic' in the universe and in our lives. We just need to see it.

What method would you propose someone use to see this supposed “magic” of yours so as to distinguish the claim from nonsense?   
"Don't make me come down there."

God

ekim

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #36061 on: June 05, 2019, 11:03:49 AM »
Of course our will is driven by our conscious desires, but my point is that we have the freedom to choose how, when or if to indulge these desires.  Our conscious awareness is not a spectator upon physically predetermined reactions emerging from our material brains - it is the driving force which is accountable for all our choices.
I am a bit confused with what you are saying.  You agree that 'will' is driven by desire in which case desire comes first and there is no free will.  You then say that conscious awareness is not a spectator, which seems to imply that it is blind to physically predetermined reactions e.g. desire and fear, and not only that it is driving blindly all our choices.

I think you also need to distinguish between 'will' and 'choice'.  At its base, I would suggest that the ability to choose is what intelligence is.  In humans this can be driven rationally and logically or emotionally and irrationally or a mixture of both.  Conscious awareness facilitates the process rather than drives it. 

The other thing you don't enter into, and which is relevant to this thread, is how God's Will features as a determining factor versus the, what appears to be, self centred driving force you subscribe to.

Sriram

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #36062 on: June 05, 2019, 11:13:27 AM »
'Remarkable' need not equate to 'magical'.  'Remarkable' may better mean 'needs explanation' and if you want to talk about two boxes, I would say that there are two psychological camps here, one that sees something remarkable and wants to understand it; the other camp prefers the mystery to remain and is happy to settle for 'magic'.  The second camp epitomises willful ignorance, the first camp chooses mundane reality over the bliss of ignorance.


What I am saying is that 'magic' is everywhere. Dark Matter is five times more abundant than normal matter but cannot be seen, felt or interacted with. The earth and solar system as a whole just float through dark  matter as though it doesn't exist.   That is science....but it is also 'magic'. If a religious person had proposed such a thing as dark matter, you people would have laughed yourselves silly.

If a religious person had proposed 11 dimensions or parallel universes you would have laughed it off. But it is science.

Emergence and complexity are similarly 'magical' because you can't explain it.  If a religious person had used terms like 'emergence' or 'randomness' to explain most things he would have been criticized.


bluehillside Retd.

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #36063 on: June 05, 2019, 11:30:37 AM »
Sriram,

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What I am saying is that 'magic' is everywhere. Dark Matter is five times more abundant than normal matter but cannot be seen, felt or interacted with. The earth and solar system as a whole just float through dark  matter as though it doesn't exist.   That is science....but it is also 'magic'. If a religious person had proposed such a thing as dark matter, you people would have laughed yourselves silly.

If a religious person had proposed 11 dimensions or parallel universes you would have laughed it off. But it is science.

Emergence and complexity are similarly 'magical' because you can't explain it.  If a religious person had used terms like 'emergence' or 'randomness' to explain most things he would have been criticized.

You are, as ever, confused. Science begins (as Richard Feynman famously said) with guesses - essentially "here's everything we can think of that could be an explanation for an observed phenomenon". What it then does though is to ask, "OK - which of these guesses are plausible given the known facts?" Those that survive this process are called hypotheses, a hypothesis being a better supported potential explanation than just a guess. 

Still with me? Good. What happens next is that the people who do science look for evidence that either confirms or disconfirms the competing hypotheses. And when sufficient confirmatory evidence can be found such that a hypothesis is validated it becomes a theory - ie, it accords with the known facts, accurately predicts future events, could in principle be falsified etc.   

The ideas you cite (dark matter etc) are at various of these stages, but are not yet scientific theories. Your various claims of fact about a supposed supernatural on the other hand are at the guesses stage, but nothing more. And your guesses about whatever you believe to be true are no more valid than anyone else's guesses about anything else.

And that old son is our Grand Canyon-sized problem.   
« Last Edit: June 05, 2019, 11:32:43 AM by bluehillside Retd. »
"Don't make me come down there."

God

torridon

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #36064 on: June 05, 2019, 12:39:17 PM »

What I am saying is that 'magic' is everywhere. Dark Matter is five times more abundant than normal matter but cannot be seen, felt or interacted with. The earth and solar system as a whole just float through dark  matter as though it doesn't exist.   That is science....but it is also 'magic'. If a religious person had proposed such a thing as dark matter, you people would have laughed yourselves silly.

If a religious person had proposed 11 dimensions or parallel universes you would have laughed it off. But it is science.

Emergence and complexity are similarly 'magical' because you can't explain it.  If a religious person had used terms like 'emergence' or 'randomness' to explain most things he would have been criticized.

Nah, I don't recognise your definition of 'magic' at all.

Sriram

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #36065 on: June 05, 2019, 01:24:05 PM »



If some phenomenon cannot be explained or understood purely on a reductionist basis....there is 'magic' involved.  What this 'magic' is and how it works...we can keep arguing ....but it remains an unknown.  That is 'magic'.

bluehillside Retd.

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #36066 on: June 05, 2019, 02:31:21 PM »
Sriram,

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If some phenomenon cannot be explained or understood purely on a reductionist basis....there is 'magic' involved.  What this 'magic' is and how it works...we can keep arguing ....but it remains an unknown.  That is 'magic'.

First, it's not "cannot be explained or understood purely on a reductionist basis", it's cannot be explained or understood at all - or at least not on a coherent basis.

Second, when there's no explanation then there's no explanation. The absence of an explanation isn't "magic" at all, it's just the absence of something.

Third, you wrongly conflate the status of conjectures and hypotheses in science with the assertions of fact of faith. If you wan to call your various claims of the supernatural "guesses" or some such knock yourself out. The moment though you assert them to be fact without bothering with the hard yards of providing a method to verify the claim then, as ever, you collapse in a heap.       
 
"Don't make me come down there."

God

Alan Burns

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #36067 on: June 05, 2019, 07:07:28 PM »
I gave you an analogy from Springwatch for how choice is resolved without appeals to magical thinking and without incurring an infinite regress.  You don't accept that, OK, so step up and give your explanation for how an autonomous agent resolves choice in the face of competing desires.
But what is it that perceives and consciously resolves the options available?
The truth will set you free  - John 8:32
Truth is not an abstraction, but a person - Edith Stein
Free will, though it makes evil possible, is also the only thing that makes possible any love or goodness or joy worth having. - CS Lewis
Joy is the Gigantic Secret of Christians - GK Chesterton

Gordon

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #36068 on: June 05, 2019, 07:17:01 PM »
But what is it that perceives and consciously resolves the options available?

You, Alan: as in your brain, since perceiving and resolving stuff is what brains are capable of - surely this can't be a complete surprise to you. 

torridon

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #36069 on: June 05, 2019, 07:18:13 PM »
But what is it that perceives and consciously resolves the options available?

That's not answering the (previous) question. That's just avoiding it.

I gave an analogy from a Springwatch episode for how choice is resolved by minds; you don't like that, insisting on an autonomous conscious agent, so now it's your turn, give your explanation for how an autonomous agent resolves choice in the face of competing desires.

Gordon

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #36070 on: June 05, 2019, 09:07:34 PM »
But what is it that perceives and consciously resolves the options available?

BBC4 this evening, albeit late at 00.30, there is the 2014 Horizon programme 'How You Really Make Decisions': might be worth checking out/recording Alan to see if there is any mention of the role of 'souls'.

Alan Burns

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #36071 on: June 24, 2019, 01:11:13 PM »
My theory is that the theists here finally realised they've been barking up the wrong tree all along so have left to tend their allotments instead.
(quoted from another thread)

Quite the opposite, blue.
My five years experience on this forum has inspired me to take a break in order to write a new book about discovering God in this modern world.
The truth will set you free  - John 8:32
Truth is not an abstraction, but a person - Edith Stein
Free will, though it makes evil possible, is also the only thing that makes possible any love or goodness or joy worth having. - CS Lewis
Joy is the Gigantic Secret of Christians - GK Chesterton

bluehillside Retd.

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #36072 on: June 24, 2019, 01:21:15 PM »
AB,

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Quite the opposite, blue.
My five years experience on this forum has inspired me to take a break in order to write a new book about discovering God in this modern world.

Good luck with that. Let me know if you want me to edit out the logical mistakes – then all you’ll need is the dust jacket! 
"Don't make me come down there."

God

SusanDoris

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #36073 on: June 24, 2019, 06:38:33 PM »
(quoted from another thread)

Quite the opposite, blue.
My five years experience on this forum has inspired me to take a break in order to write a new book about discovering God in this modern world.
Just imagining the saccharine, cloying sentimentality which I expect will pervade this book sets my teeth on edge and makes me cringe.
The Most Honourable Sister of Titular Indecision.

bluehillside Retd.

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #36074 on: June 24, 2019, 09:57:00 PM »
Susan,

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Just imagining the saccharine, cloying sentimentality which I expect will pervade this book sets my teeth on edge and makes me cringe.

That explains your toothache - it's all AB's fault!
"Don't make me come down there."

God