Searching for GOD...

[Gordon]

We consciously recognise control systems because we perceive comparisons with our own abilities to achieve an objective by deliberate manipulation - which involves interaction, not reaction.  We have no control over the laws of physics, so it becomes impossible to define a source of control within chains of physical cause and effect.  The control systems we perceive in nature can be deemed to work as intended by the Creator.  Just as computerised control systems work as intended by their human creators.  Control implies a conscious source with the power to interact in order to achieve a perceived objective.  A power which cannot be sourced within chains of uncontrollable physically predefined reactions.

I see we're back to the 'source of control' phraseology - no matter how you try to mangle terms and phrases, Alan, you are still thrashing about in your incredulity, and your using 'source of control' as a placeholder for 'God' or 'Creator' is blindingly obvious, as is your having a go at a teleological argument.

[Stranger]

We consciously recognise control systems because we perceive comparisons with our own abilities to achieve an objective by deliberate manipulation - which involves interaction, not reaction.

Interaction is a series of reactions. How about you try some evidence or reasoning and stop the silly word games?

We have no control over the laws of physics, so it becomes impossible to define a source of control within chains of physical cause and effect. 

Take any control system that you don't regard as magic, think about it, and stop being silly.

The control systems we perceive in nature can be deemed to work as intended by the Creator.  Just as computerised control systems work as intended by their human creators.

Baseless assertion.

Control implies a conscious source with the power to interact in order to achieve a perceived objective.

No Alan, it simply does not. You are not free to redefine words in English to suit your faith.

A power which cannot be sourced within chains of uncontrollable physically predefined reactions.

More silly emotive language and blind faith.

You're still pretending that all this is due to the "physical" and totally ignoring the logic that shows that there is no alternative that isn't self-contradictory.

[Alan Burns]

AB,

See "Paley's watch" for an explanation of where you've gone wrong there:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Watchmaker_analogy

The blind leading the blind

[bluehillside Retd.]

AB,

The blind leading the blind

Which part of your mistaken belief that complexity implies a designer is confusing you?

[Alan Burns]

AB,

Which part of your mistaken belief that complexity implies a designer is confusing you?

You make the mistake of presuming that if you can observe something, no matter how complex, it must have occurred naturally rather than intentionally.

[bluehillside Retd.]

AB,

You make the mistake of presuming that if you can observe something, no matter how complex, it must have occurred naturally rather than intentionally.

Wrong again. If you think complexity implies a creator, then the burden of proof is with you to explain why. When you fail to do that, Mr Occam caries the day.   

[Alan Burns]

I see we're back to the 'source of control' phraseology - no matter how you try to mangle terms and phrases, Alan, you are still thrashing about in your incredulity, and your using 'source of control' as a placeholder for 'God' or 'Creator' is blindingly obvious, as is your having a go at a teleological argument.

You and I are definitive sources of control, Gordon.
We are living proof that conscious sources of control can interact within this universe.

[bluehillside Retd.]

AB,

You and I are definitive sources of control, Gordon.

Without invoking magic, how?

We are living proof that conscious sources of control can interact within this universe.

You're part of the universe, not separate from it.

[Stranger]

You and I are definitive sources of control, Gordon.

Vague, pointless assertion.

We are living proof that conscious sources of control can interact within this universe.

You have provided zero reasoning or evidence to suggest consciousness is something separate from the universe. Yet again: continually claiming that what we all experience is proof or evidence of your proposed (and self-contradictory) explanation for it, is tantamount to lying.

[Alan Burns]

You're part of the universe, not separate from it.

My body is part of this deterministic universe, but without my soul I would not have the freedom to choose to inform you that you are mistaken.

[Outrider]

If I was part of this deterministic universe, I would not have the freedom to choose to inform you that you are mistaken.

Or, alternatively, you would have no option but to do so...

O.

[Stranger]

My body is part of this deterministic universe, but without my soul I would not have the freedom to choose to inform you that you are mistaken.

Drivel.

[bluehillside Retd.]

AB,

My body is part of this deterministic universe, but without my soul I would not have the freedom to choose to inform you that you are mistaken.

But you would have the apparent working experience of freedom to assert it without benefit of logic or evidence to support the claim, which is what you just did.

[Gordon]

My body is part of this deterministic universe, but without my soul I would not have the freedom to choose to inform you that you are mistaken.

Since there are no good reasons to think you have this 'soul' thing it therefore follows that you aren't as free as you'd like to think you are.

[Alan Burns]

Since there are no good reasons to think you have this 'soul' thing it therefore follows that you aren't as free as you'd like to think you are.

I rejoice in my freedom.
Perhaps you aren't as predetermined as you think you are.

[Sebastian Toe]

But unlike my heartbeat, I have conscious control over my breathing

...control your breathing, stop breathing for 20 minutes and then describe the results of your successful control.

[Stranger]

I rejoice in my freedom.

We are all free in the only way that makes any sense. You do not rejoice in, or even experience "freedom" in the way you define it, because your definition simply makes no sense. You can't experience your notion of freedom any more than you can see a square circle.

Perhaps you aren't as predetermined as you think you are.

Nobody is "predetermined" in any usual sense of the word. The only way amazing choice making entities like humans can logically exist, is by being deterministic (although probably chaotic, in the scientific sense).

[Gordon]

I rejoice in my freedom.

No doubt, but then you idea of 'freedom' is illogical.

Perhaps you aren't as predetermined as you think you are.

I don't think I'm 'predetermined' at all, since 'predetermined' is just another of your weasel-words. I do feel I have a degree of freedom to act but I also recognise that it may just feel that way, since I don't exist in isolation from either the universe in general or my own preferences and traits, some of which I may be unaware of.

For instance, I don't even have the 'freedom' to choose to suddenly enjoy eating mayonnaise, which I utterly detest, or suddenly decide that I really do love so called 'country-music' (now there's an oxymoron for you).

[Roses]

My body is part of this deterministic universe, but without my soul I would not have the freedom to choose to inform you that you are mistaken.

Your belief to which you are entitled, but that is all it is a belief you can't produce evidence to substantiate it.

[Alan Burns]

No doubt, but then you idea of 'freedom' is illogical.

I don't think I'm 'predetermined' at all, since 'predetermined' is just another of your weasel-words. I do feel I have a degree of freedom to act but I also recognise that it may just feel that way, since I don't exist in isolation from either the universe in general or my own preferences and traits, some of which I may be unaware of.

For instance, I don't even have the 'freedom' to choose to suddenly enjoy eating mayonnaise, which I utterly detest, or suddenly decide that I really do love so called 'country-music' (now there's an oxymoron for you).

Have you ever done something you regret?
The reason we regret is because we know that we could have made a better choice, or perhaps chosen not to do it.  Every human being has consciously driven freedom to choose.  It is not illogical.  It is reality.

[Stranger]

Have you ever done something you regret?
The reason we regret is because we know that we could have made a better choice, or perhaps chosen not to do it.

Wow - you really are scraping the bottom of the barrel now. Have you just given up on even trying to pretend to be logical? I mean, "we feel like it, so it must be true" - seriously?

[Stranger]

It is not illogical.  It is reality.

The truth is that you can neither answer the logical argument against you, nor can you provide the slightest hint of evidence or reasoning to support your self-contradictory position.

Empty assertions are not convincing.

[Alan Burns]

The truth is that you can neither answer the logical argument against you, nor can you provide the slightest hint of evidence or reasoning to support your self-contradictory position.

Empty assertions are not convincing.

I simply provide evidence by consciously choosing to write this post.
Was this choice predetermined from the beginning of time?
Or was it invoked by my conscious awareness which exists and acts in the present?

[Gordon]

Have you ever done something you regret?
The reason we regret is because we know that we could have made a better choice, or perhaps chosen not to do it.  Every human being has consciously driven freedom to choose.  It is not illogical.  It is reality.

Don't be silly: that I can exercise a degree of choice does not mean my available choices are free of precursors, constraints and personal preferences, where I may not fully appreciate these when exercising choice - so even if I feel a sense of agency my choices are never 'free' in the sense that you use the term.

[Roses]

I simply provide evidence by consciously choosing to write this post.
Was this choice predetermined from the beginning of time?
Or was it invoked by my conscious awareness which exists and acts in the present?

That isn't my idea of evidence!