Author Topic: Searching for GOD...  (Read 4567645 times)

Outrider

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 14720
Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #36300 on: September 04, 2019, 12:15:36 PM »
But to consciously "try" implies that I have the ability to invoke such an action.  Where in the endless chains of physically predefined cause and effect can such an act of deliberation occur?

Just after the subconscious produces the urge to try without 'your' direct input....

O.
Universes are forever, not just for creation...

New Atheism - because, apparently, there's a use-by date on unanswered questions.

Eminent Pedant, Interpreter of Heretical Writings, Unwarranted Harvester of Trite Nomenclature, Church of Debatable Saints

Stranger

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 8442
  • Lightly seared on the reality grill.
Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #36301 on: September 04, 2019, 12:18:52 PM »
Many of my posts on this forum are merely pointing out some of the false ideas that some people have concerning the notion that science can be used to explain why there is no God.

Can you point to a single post by anybody who said anything remotely like that?

Much of my reasoning stems from a eureka moment I had over forty years ago when I realised that any conscious freedom I have to make choices can't be derived from the physically predetermined reactions in an entirely material brain.  My freedom to think and choose is the reality I live in - a reality which can't be explained in physical terms without concluding that such a reality is an illusion.

Except none of that actually makes the slightest bit of logical sense. You didn't realise that your "freedom" couldn't be derived from the physical world, that's nothing but incredulity.

You then made the fundamental logical mistake of assuming you could escape the deterministic nature of the material universe just by positing something non-physical - a mistake to continue to cling to despite all the actual logic that you cannot answer.

But the consciously driven thought processes needed to reach such a conclusion effectively prove that the conclusion must be wrong.

This is just absurd.
x(∅ ∈ x ∧ ∀y(yxy ∪ {y} ∈ x))

Gordon

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 18621
Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #36302 on: September 04, 2019, 01:14:35 PM »
Many of my posts on this forum are merely pointing out some of the false ideas that some people have concerning the notion that science can be used to explain why there is no God.

Nobody here has ever said that.

Christine

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 236
Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #36303 on: September 04, 2019, 01:45:07 PM »
Thanks for your message, Christine.  Many of my posts on this forum are merely pointing out some of the false ideas that some people have concerning the notion that science can be used to explain why there is no God.  I am not sure how many of my posts you have read, so forgive me if I am perceived as repeating myself.  Much of my reasoning stems from a eureka moment I had over forty years ago when I realised that any conscious freedom I have to make choices can't be derived from the physically predetermined reactions in an entirely material brain.  My freedom to think and choose is the reality I live in - a reality which can't be explained in physical terms without concluding that such a reality is an illusion.  But the consciously driven thought processes needed to reach such a conclusion effectively prove that the conclusion must be wrong.

So I find through my Christian faith that life has far more purpose and meaning than anything derived entirely from meaningless unguided material reactions.

Hi Alan,

Your misrepresentation of what other people on this forum claim about science has been effectively dealt with.  So, the Bible...

Thomas Paine is an intelligent and witty writer, I heartily recommend The Age of Reason. 

The Bible can’t be the “word of God” because no deity worth its salt would rely on the written word to communicate with its creation. Quote:

“THE WORD OF GOD IS THE CREATION WE BEHOLD and it is in this word, which no human invention can counterfeit or alter, that God speaketh universally to man.

Human language is local and changeable, and is therefore incapable of being used as the means of unchangeable and universal information.  The idea that God sent Jesus Christ to publish, as they say, the glad tidings to all nations, from one end of the earth to the other, is consistent only with the ignorance of those who knew nothing of the extent of the world…

…as to translations, every man who knows anything of languages knows that it is impossible to translate from one language to another not only without losing a great part of the original, but frequently of mistaking the sense…”

He goes on to say that to accomplish an end, the means must be sufficient.  Because ‘god’ has infinite power, the means it uses to accomplish its end must be sufficient and language “is incapable of being used as an universal means of unchangeable and uniform information, and therefore it is not the means that God useth in manifesting himself universally to man.”

Interested to know why you think Tom was wrong.


Alan Burns

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 10310
  • I lay it down of my own free will. John 10:18
Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #36304 on: September 04, 2019, 04:23:59 PM »
Nobody here has ever said that.
Sorry for the typing error -
I meant to say:
"Many of my posts on this forum are merely pointing out some of the false ideas that some people have concerning the notion that science can be used to explain why there is no need for God. "

But in retrospect I should have said:
"..... no evidence for God."



The truth will set you free  - John 8:32
Truth is not an abstraction, but a person - Edith Stein
Free will, though it makes evil possible, is also the only thing that makes possible any love or goodness or joy worth having. - CS Lewis
Joy is the Gigantic Secret of Christians - GK Chesterton

torridon

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 10247
Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #36305 on: September 04, 2019, 04:27:18 PM »
But to consciously "try" implies that I have the ability to invoke such an action.  Where in the endless chains of physically predefined cause and effect can such an act of deliberation occur?

Broadly the same place wherein a wolf 'tries' to bring down a bison, or a brown bear 'tries' to catch a salmon.  You don't need a magic soul to 'try' things, it happens everywhere in nature.  Brains evolved to do that job, to bridge the gap between perceived need and motor response.  Mr Ockham would take a dim view of you inventing magic souls to do what the brain already does sublimely well.

Outrider

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 14720
Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #36306 on: September 04, 2019, 04:30:10 PM »
Sorry for the typing error -
I meant to say:
"Many of my posts on this forum are merely pointing out some of the false ideas that some people have concerning the notion that science can be used to explain why there is no need for God. "

I'm not sure any of them are doing that, either, although arguably that's an application of psychology?

Quote
But in retrospect I should have said:
"..... no evidence for God."

Science doesn't need to explain why there is no evidence for God.  Scientists, using science, are within their right to presume - based upon the lack of evidence for God - that there is no reason to accept the suggestion of 'God'.  It's then up to believers to provide either a different mechanism of proof, or something that hadn't previously been considered into the evidentiary record.
Universes are forever, not just for creation...

New Atheism - because, apparently, there's a use-by date on unanswered questions.

Eminent Pedant, Interpreter of Heretical Writings, Unwarranted Harvester of Trite Nomenclature, Church of Debatable Saints

Stranger

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 8442
  • Lightly seared on the reality grill.
Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #36307 on: September 04, 2019, 04:37:10 PM »
Sorry for the typing error -
I meant to say:
"Many of my posts on this forum are merely pointing out some of the false ideas that some people have concerning the notion that science can be used to explain why there is no need for God. "

But in retrospect I should have said:
"..... no evidence for God."

Even this looks like a misunderstanding of the situation. We don't need science to point out there is no evidence for any god and neither does the lack of a scientific explanation for something (or still less, somebody's personal incredulity about the possibility of one) constitute evidence for any god.
x(∅ ∈ x ∧ ∀y(yxy ∪ {y} ∈ x))

bluehillside Retd.

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 19724
Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #36308 on: September 04, 2019, 07:20:50 PM »
AB,

Quote
Sorry for the typing error -
I meant to say:
"Many of my posts on this forum are merely pointing out some of the false ideas that some people have concerning the notion that science can be used to explain why there is no need for God. "

But in retrospect I should have said:
"..... no evidence for God."

For some reason you really struggle with this. Science is a set of methods and tools to investigate the observable world and to provide useful explanations for it. That’s it. Really. That’s it. If you want to posit, gods, leprechauns, unicorns or anything else science can’t address then science is necessarily indifferent to such claims. 

Still with me? OK, good…

Now sometimes people will use their faith beliefs to make claims of objective fact about the world – that the Earth is 6,000 years old for example. Now when such claims have no evidence to support them (which they never have), then still science is indifferent to them because the methods of tools of science are given nothing to address. What science can do though is to apply itself to the evidence it does have for, say, the age of the Earth and it uses that evidence to obtain explanations called theories that can be used to make accurate predictions. We call these explanations “true” inasmuch as they’re the most robust answers we have, but we allow that if ever evidence was found that falsified the explanations then the provisional truths we had have to be amended or junked.

Hang on in there – nearly done…   

…now the problem with faith claims of fact isn’t that science is indifferent to them, it’s that those who make them offer no alternative method to investigate and validate them. Much as you want to make assertions of objective truths they are in fact just statements of faith. And when all you have is statements of faith, then any such claim is precisely as (in)valid as any other.

And that, for a fairly obvious reason you don’t seem to grasp, is a big, big problem for you.

You’re welcome.       
« Last Edit: September 04, 2019, 07:26:13 PM by bluehillside Retd. »
"Don't make me come down there."

God

Alan Burns

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 10310
  • I lay it down of my own free will. John 10:18
Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #36309 on: September 04, 2019, 07:32:50 PM »
Hi Alan,

Your misrepresentation of what other people on this forum claim about science has been effectively dealt with.  So, the Bible...

Thomas Paine is an intelligent and witty writer, I heartily recommend The Age of Reason. 

The Bible can’t be the “word of God” because no deity worth its salt would rely on the written word to communicate with its creation. Quote:

“THE WORD OF GOD IS THE CREATION WE BEHOLD and it is in this word, which no human invention can counterfeit or alter, that God speaketh universally to man.

Human language is local and changeable, and is therefore incapable of being used as the means of unchangeable and universal information.  The idea that God sent Jesus Christ to publish, as they say, the glad tidings to all nations, from one end of the earth to the other, is consistent only with the ignorance of those who knew nothing of the extent of the world…

…as to translations, every man who knows anything of languages knows that it is impossible to translate from one language to another not only without losing a great part of the original, but frequently of mistaking the sense…”

He goes on to say that to accomplish an end, the means must be sufficient.  Because ‘god’ has infinite power, the means it uses to accomplish its end must be sufficient and language “is incapable of being used as an universal means of unchangeable and uniform information, and therefore it is not the means that God useth in manifesting himself universally to man.”

Interested to know why you think Tom was wrong.
The Christian bible has been scrutinised, criticised, analysed and debated more than any other book in history, yet it still forms the foundation of faith for billions of Christians.  It is essentially a collection of books written by people who have witnessed God in their lives.  As such it is prone to human error in the same way as any other witness statements.  But the underlying message is a profound overturning of man made aspirations, calling us all to dedicate our lives to the service of other people and God.  But the most profound message of all is to realise that we are more than mere flesh and blood, and that through the power of the human soul we have been given to gift of free will to enable us to choose between good and evil, and to choose our own destiny.
The truth will set you free  - John 8:32
Truth is not an abstraction, but a person - Edith Stein
Free will, though it makes evil possible, is also the only thing that makes possible any love or goodness or joy worth having. - CS Lewis
Joy is the Gigantic Secret of Christians - GK Chesterton

Alan Burns

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 10310
  • I lay it down of my own free will. John 10:18
Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #36310 on: September 04, 2019, 08:10:36 PM »
AB,

For some reason you really struggle with this. Science is a set of methods and tools to investigate the observable world and to provide useful explanations for it. That’s it. Really. That’s it. If you want to posit, gods, leprechauns, unicorns or anything else science can’t address then science is necessarily indifferent to such claims. 

Still with me? OK, good…

Now sometimes people will use their faith beliefs to make claims of objective fact about the world – that the Earth is 6,000 years old for example. Now when such claims have no evidence to support them (which they never have), then still science is indifferent to them because the methods of tools of science are given nothing to address. What science can do though is to apply itself to the evidence it does have for, say, the age of the Earth and it uses that evidence to obtain explanations called theories that can be used to make accurate predictions. We call these explanations “true” inasmuch as they’re the most robust answers we have, but we allow that if ever evidence was found that falsified the explanations then the provisional truths we had have to be amended or junked.

Hang on in there – nearly done…   

…now the problem with faith claims of fact isn’t that science is indifferent to them, it’s that those who make them offer no alternative method to investigate and validate them. Much as you want to make assertions of objective truths they are in fact just statements of faith. And when all you have is statements of faith, then any such claim is precisely as (in)valid as any other.

And that, for a fairly obvious reason you don’t seem to grasp, is a big, big problem for you.

You’re welcome.     
But the question you fail to address is how this collection of sub atomic particles, which is "you", working under the predetermined laws of physics, can consciously contemplate their own existence and the existence of everything else.  Just claiming yourself to be some form of emergence from the purposeless activity of material reactions is not a feasible explanation.
The truth will set you free  - John 8:32
Truth is not an abstraction, but a person - Edith Stein
Free will, though it makes evil possible, is also the only thing that makes possible any love or goodness or joy worth having. - CS Lewis
Joy is the Gigantic Secret of Christians - GK Chesterton

Gordon

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 18621
Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #36311 on: September 04, 2019, 08:35:52 PM »
But the question you fail to address is how this collection of sub atomic particles, which is "you", working under the predetermined laws of physics, can consciously contemplate their own existence and the existence of everything else.  Just claiming yourself to be some form of emergence from the purposeless activity of material reactions is not a feasible explanation.

Leaving aside your usual descent into hyperbolic weasel-words - it is perfectly feasible, but your incredulity and your fear of the consequences of 'you' or 'I' being a product of the natural gets in your way. 

bluehillside Retd.

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 19724
Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #36312 on: September 04, 2019, 09:26:52 PM »
AB,

Quote
The Christian bible has been scrutinised, criticised, analysed and debated more than any other book in history, yet it still forms the foundation of faith for billions of Christians.  It is essentially a collection of books written by people who have witnessed God in their lives.  As such it is prone to human error in the same way as any other witness statements.  But the underlying message is a profound overturning of man made aspirations, calling us all to dedicate our lives to the service of other people and God.  But the most profound message of all is to realise that we are more than mere flesh and blood, and that through the power of the human soul we have been given to gift of free will to enable us to choose between good and evil, and to choose our own destiny.

Lots of people have studied lots of “holy” texts and confirmed their faith beliefs as a result. Why have you just ignored the explanation of what science actually entails and collapsed instead into yet another argumetum ad populum fallacy?

Quote
But the question you fail to address…

Oh no you don’t. You made some false claims about science and what people claim for it, and I corrected you on that. Rather than address that though you’ve gone straight for your standard weaselling out of changing of the subject and hoping no-one notices. Try to be honest and own your mistakes for once.

Quote
… is how this collection of sub atomic particles, which is "you", working under the predetermined laws of physics, can consciously contemplate their own existence and the existence of everything else.  Just claiming yourself to be some form of emergence from the purposeless activity of material reactions is not a feasible explanation.

First, why isn’t it a feasible explanation given that it’s aligned with all we know about the nature of emergent properties?

Second, whether or not your personally find the rational answer to be unsatisfying it's at least has hugely more rational than your “it’s magic” for which you have no logic or evidence of any kind. 
"Don't make me come down there."

God

torridon

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 10247
Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #36313 on: September 05, 2019, 07:22:22 AM »
The Christian bible has been scrutinised, criticised, analysed and debated more than any other book in history, yet it still forms the foundation of faith for billions of Christians.  It is essentially a collection of books written by people who have witnessed God in their lives.  As such it is prone to human error in the same way as any other witness statements.  But the underlying message is a profound overturning of man made aspirations, calling us all to dedicate our lives to the service of other people and God.  But the most profound message of all is to realise that we are more than mere flesh and blood, and that through the power of the human soul we have been given to gift of free will to enable us to choose between good and evil, and to choose our own destiny.

Christine did not ask for a statement of your personal faith; she asked you to respond to specific points made by Thomas Paine which you sidestepped rather than addressed.  With such a natural penchant for evasiveness, have you considered a career in politics ?

Stranger

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 8442
  • Lightly seared on the reality grill.
Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #36314 on: September 05, 2019, 08:16:28 AM »
But the question you fail to address is how this collection of sub atomic particles, which is "you", working under the predetermined laws of physics, can consciously contemplate their own existence and the existence of everything else.

And the question you not only fail to address but continually run away from, is how logically impossible, self-contradictory magic is supposed to be any more believable.

Just claiming yourself to be some form of emergence from the purposeless activity of material reactions is not a feasible explanation.

Asserting your own incredulity really isn't convincing - especially when your "alternative" goes way beyond "not feasible" and well into the logically impossible.

And BTW, the use of the word "purposeless" goes beyond your usual smokescreen of emotive wording and is actually inaccurate in this context - evolution produces purpose.
x(∅ ∈ x ∧ ∀y(yxy ∪ {y} ∈ x))

Alan Burns

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 10310
  • I lay it down of my own free will. John 10:18
Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #36315 on: September 05, 2019, 08:35:21 AM »


And BTW, the use of the word "purposeless" goes beyond your usual smokescreen of emotive wording and is actually inaccurate in this context - evolution produces purpose.
The concept of purpose does not exist outside human awareness
The truth will set you free  - John 8:32
Truth is not an abstraction, but a person - Edith Stein
Free will, though it makes evil possible, is also the only thing that makes possible any love or goodness or joy worth having. - CS Lewis
Joy is the Gigantic Secret of Christians - GK Chesterton

torridon

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 10247
Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #36316 on: September 05, 2019, 08:49:55 AM »
The concept of purpose does not exist outside human awareness

Neither do the concepts of arbitrage, or money or fixed interest securities,  So what ? 

Stranger

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 8442
  • Lightly seared on the reality grill.
Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #36317 on: September 05, 2019, 08:54:31 AM »
The concept of purpose does not exist outside human awareness

Does (for example) camouflage in the animal kingdom, have a purpose?
x(∅ ∈ x ∧ ∀y(yxy ∪ {y} ∈ x))

Outrider

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 14720
Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #36318 on: September 05, 2019, 09:12:51 AM »
The Christian bible has been scrutinised, criticised, analysed and debated more than any other book in history, yet it still forms the foundation of faith for billions of Christians.

Yet amongst those billions there are massively divergent interpretations and understandings of what the book actually says, as though it contains a mass of oftentimes contradictory, regularly vague and imprecise parables and anecdotes from which a range of people can drag something to reinforce their preconceptions and then armour them from criticism with the shield of 'respect my beliefs'.

Quote
It is essentially a collection of books written by people who have witnessed God in their lives.

Allegedly.  Those many, many people you cite who have studied it have concluded that: the author(s) of the Old Testament are largely unknown, but that the individuals they depict probably never existed; the authors of the New Testament are not the people to whom the New Testament is credited; many sections of the New Testament were written significant periods of time after the death of any actual figure resembling Jesus, and probably not by people who were alive at the time, perhaps not even by people who had direct access to eyewitness testimony; the various writings were selected by vested interests from a wider range of texts well after the fact; the translation from the original language(s) loses some of the cultural elements that do not traverse the divide; the subsequent choice of poetic translations (particularly into English) has massively altered the meaning of significant portions of the edited versions of the originally unreliable accounts.

Quote
As such it is prone to human error in the same way as any other witness statements.

More than that, there is a deliberate effort on the part of later editors to select for a particular purpose, to make additions, excisions and amendments to suit a particular editorial narrative and then the poetic translation to compound the effect.

Quote
But the underlying message is a profound overturning of man made aspirations, calling us all to dedicate our lives to the service of other people and God.

Is that what you get from it?  I get an authoritarian message of 'don't think for yourself, knowledge is almost as bad as being female, do as you're told or suffer an eternal torment for a finite "crime"'.  It's an obnoxious parcel of hate from a bully, with a follow up of trying to paper over the cracks with overt claims of 'love' and 'compassion' without changing the underlying menace of 'my way or endless torment'.  That, of course, is if you decide that, like Star Wars, it's probably worth stopping before they get on to the later nonsense like the Qu'Ran or the Book of Moron.

Quote
But the most profound message of all is to realise that we are more than mere flesh and blood, and that through the power of the human soul we have been given to gift of free will to enable us to choose between good and evil, and to choose our own destiny.

Yeah, that whole 'free will' thing - where is that in the Bible?  That's a creation of subsequent theologians to try and weasel their way out of the realisation that an all-powerful, all-knowing God is responsible for all of the resultant ills of his creation because, in knowing how things would turn out, he'd be responsible for choosing to instigate that particular version of reality.  The Bible doesn't suggest free-will, people desperate for the Bible not to be shown to have a fundamental flaw have alleged free will without evidence.

O.
Universes are forever, not just for creation...

New Atheism - because, apparently, there's a use-by date on unanswered questions.

Eminent Pedant, Interpreter of Heretical Writings, Unwarranted Harvester of Trite Nomenclature, Church of Debatable Saints

Alan Burns

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 10310
  • I lay it down of my own free will. John 10:18
Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #36319 on: September 05, 2019, 10:36:41 AM »
Does (for example) camouflage in the animal kingdom, have a purpose?
The purpose only exists in human awareness, or perhaps in God's awareness.  From a secular point of view, the camouflage was not intended, neither was the consequence of the camouflage intended in contributing to survival.  The concept of purpose goes with the concept of intent to achieve a consciously perceived goal.  It all exists in our conscious awareness, but outside our awareness, everything is just inevitable, unintended consequences to events over which there is no control other than the laws of physics (unless you accept the power of consciously driven will).
The truth will set you free  - John 8:32
Truth is not an abstraction, but a person - Edith Stein
Free will, though it makes evil possible, is also the only thing that makes possible any love or goodness or joy worth having. - CS Lewis
Joy is the Gigantic Secret of Christians - GK Chesterton

Alan Burns

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 10310
  • I lay it down of my own free will. John 10:18
Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #36320 on: September 05, 2019, 10:42:15 AM »
Yet amongst those billions there are massively divergent interpretations and understandings of what the book actually says, as though it contains a mass of oftentimes contradictory, regularly vague and imprecise parables and anecdotes from which a range of people can drag something to reinforce their preconceptions and then armour them from criticism with the shield of 'respect my beliefs'.

Allegedly.  Those many, many people you cite who have studied it have concluded that: the author(s) of the Old Testament are largely unknown, but that the individuals they depict probably never existed; the authors of the New Testament are not the people to whom the New Testament is credited; many sections of the New Testament were written significant periods of time after the death of any actual figure resembling Jesus, and probably not by people who were alive at the time, perhaps not even by people who had direct access to eyewitness testimony; the various writings were selected by vested interests from a wider range of texts well after the fact; the translation from the original language(s) loses some of the cultural elements that do not traverse the divide; the subsequent choice of poetic translations (particularly into English) has massively altered the meaning of significant portions of the edited versions of the originally unreliable accounts.

More than that, there is a deliberate effort on the part of later editors to select for a particular purpose, to make additions, excisions and amendments to suit a particular editorial narrative and then the poetic translation to compound the effect.

Is that what you get from it?  I get an authoritarian message of 'don't think for yourself, knowledge is almost as bad as being female, do as you're told or suffer an eternal torment for a finite "crime"'.  It's an obnoxious parcel of hate from a bully, with a follow up of trying to paper over the cracks with overt claims of 'love' and 'compassion' without changing the underlying menace of 'my way or endless torment'.  That, of course, is if you decide that, like Star Wars, it's probably worth stopping before they get on to the later nonsense like the Qu'Ran or the Book of Moron.

Yeah, that whole 'free will' thing - where is that in the Bible?  That's a creation of subsequent theologians to try and weasel their way out of the realisation that an all-powerful, all-knowing God is responsible for all of the resultant ills of his creation because, in knowing how things would turn out, he'd be responsible for choosing to instigate that particular version of reality.  The Bible doesn't suggest free-will, people desperate for the Bible not to be shown to have a fundamental flaw have alleged free will without evidence.

O.
For all this personally biased rhetoric to be conceived in your subconscious brain activity before you were consciously aware of it is truly amazing!
The truth will set you free  - John 8:32
Truth is not an abstraction, but a person - Edith Stein
Free will, though it makes evil possible, is also the only thing that makes possible any love or goodness or joy worth having. - CS Lewis
Joy is the Gigantic Secret of Christians - GK Chesterton

Outrider

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 14720
Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #36321 on: September 05, 2019, 10:57:30 AM »
For all this personally biased rhetoric to be conceived in your subconscious brain activity before you were consciously aware of it is truly amazing!

What does 'personally biased' even mean?  It's an opinion, like everyone's opinion...?

But, yes, you're right, it's amazing.  The human brain is arguably the single most fascinating thing that we know of.  That things are amazing, of course, does not mean that they aren't true.  It's amazing that Boris Johnson is Prime Minister, it's amazing that Donald Trump is US President.  For something to be so amazing that you can't believe it, we have the word incredible - free will is incredible.

O.
Universes are forever, not just for creation...

New Atheism - because, apparently, there's a use-by date on unanswered questions.

Eminent Pedant, Interpreter of Heretical Writings, Unwarranted Harvester of Trite Nomenclature, Church of Debatable Saints

wigginhall

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 17730
Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #36322 on: September 05, 2019, 11:10:10 AM »
For Alan, 'amazing' is a kind of pseudo-point, it's amazing that a physical organ could generate thought, therefore it doesn't, therefore an intelligent non-physical being does it, details not available on request.
They were the footprints of a gigantic hound!

Stranger

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 8442
  • Lightly seared on the reality grill.
Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #36323 on: September 05, 2019, 11:23:28 AM »
The purpose only exists in human awareness, or perhaps in God's awareness.  From a secular point of view, the camouflage was not intended, neither was the consequence of the camouflage intended in contributing to survival.  The concept of purpose goes with the concept of intent to achieve a consciously perceived goal.

Argument by assertion again. The fact is that the camouflage does serve a purpose - there is a reason why it is there, in the sense of what it is there for, as opposed to just how come it became that way.

Why should a purpose have to exist as a concept in a mind? There is a "rationale" behind camouflage, even if no mind contains it (what Dennett calls a "free-floating rationale"). As soon as the first replicator was subject to natural selection, some aspect of it was for something - it served a purpose in the context of the environment.

It all exists in our conscious awareness, but outside our awareness, everything is just inevitable, unintended consequences to events over which there is no control other than the laws of physics...

Except there is control in all sorts of situations and non-human animals can have intentions. So you are basically just wrong - and you don't seem to care because the language reinforces your personal incredulity and covers up your total lack of reasoning and logic.

...(unless you accept the power of consciously driven will).

You mean impossible, self-contradictory magic.
x(∅ ∈ x ∧ ∀y(yxy ∪ {y} ∈ x))

Stranger

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 8442
  • Lightly seared on the reality grill.
Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #36324 on: September 05, 2019, 11:27:06 AM »
For all this personally biased rhetoric to be conceived in your subconscious brain activity before you were consciously aware of it is truly amazing!

But not nearly as amazing as it being the end product of a logically impossible process that is both a deterministic system and not a deterministic system.

You also ran away from even attempting to answer any of the points raised - ho hum...
x(∅ ∈ x ∧ ∀y(yxy ∪ {y} ∈ x))