Author Topic: Searching for GOD...  (Read 3884077 times)

Robbie

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 7512
Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #36650 on: October 04, 2019, 08:25:51 PM »
Alan I responded positively to your thread about guardian angels on the Prayer forum and you haven't come back and engaged.
True Wit is Nature to Advantage drest,
          What oft was Thought, but ne’er so well Exprest

Alan Burns

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 10210
  • I lay it down of my own free will. John 10:18
Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #36651 on: October 05, 2019, 12:30:16 AM »
Alan I responded positively to your thread about guardian angels on the Prayer forum and you haven't come back and engaged.
Thanks Robbie - please see reply
The truth will set you free  - John 8:32
Truth is not an abstraction, but a person - Edith Stein
Free will, though it makes evil possible, is also the only thing that makes possible any love or goodness or joy worth having. - CS Lewis
Joy is the Gigantic Secret of Christians - GK Chesterton

torridon

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 10209
Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #36652 on: October 05, 2019, 07:21:11 AM »
Looks like Kayne West has found God:
https://tinyurl.com/y538jljq
There is hope for us all

Did he report where he is ?  That doesn't justify why God would hide in the first place.  There is usually a reason why people hide, it is because they don't want to be found.  A god that claims to be open to all and yet hides so only the few find him is an oxymoron, one more of the multitude of contradictions that people of faith have to live with.

Alan Burns

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 10210
  • I lay it down of my own free will. John 10:18
Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #36653 on: October 05, 2019, 11:37:45 AM »
Did he report where he is ?  That doesn't justify why God would hide in the first place.  There is usually a reason why people hide, it is because they don't want to be found.  A god that claims to be open to all and yet hides so only the few find him is an oxymoron, one more of the multitude of contradictions that people of faith have to live with.
God made Himself known to us by becoming one of us in the person of Jesus Christ.  When people discover God in their lives, it usually means they have discovered God through Jesus.  There are many personal testimonies from converts which involve some form of personal encounter with Jesus.
The truth will set you free  - John 8:32
Truth is not an abstraction, but a person - Edith Stein
Free will, though it makes evil possible, is also the only thing that makes possible any love or goodness or joy worth having. - CS Lewis
Joy is the Gigantic Secret of Christians - GK Chesterton

Roses

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 7989
Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #36654 on: October 05, 2019, 11:59:24 AM »
God made Himself known to us by becoming one of us in the person of Jesus Christ.  When people discover God in their lives, it usually means they have discovered God through Jesus.  There are many personal testimonies from converts which involve some form of personal encounter with Jesus.

Jesus was a human, no sort of god, he was far from perfect like the rest of us. If the virgin birth nonsense had any credibility and the god character was his dad, what sort of father would create a child so it could die a horrible to atone for its own screw up when creating humanity?
"At the going down of the sun and in the morning we will remember them."

torridon

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 10209
Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #36655 on: October 05, 2019, 12:06:31 PM »
God made Himself known to us by becoming one of us in the person of Jesus Christ.  When people discover God in their lives, it usually means they have discovered God through Jesus.  There are many personal testimonies from converts which involve some form of personal encounter with Jesus.

OK, that's just a move of the goal posts there.  So, why would Jesus hide in the first place ?  There is usually a reason why people hide, it is because they don't want to be found.

ippy

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 12679
Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #36656 on: October 05, 2019, 12:38:47 PM »
... he asserted without any justification.

I've got a magic dragon living in my shed and he will grant you eternal blessings if only you will believe in him.  See, we can all do baseless assertions.

What you need is something stronger than assertion, something solid and convincing, but that, you don't appear to have.

I've just heard that our new neighbours moving in across the road to me, apparently they are church elders of some sort and sound to be something like Alan, now I keep thinking to myself whatever I do: I mustn't say 'Have you heard the bad news'.   
I mustn't say 'Have you heard the bad news'. 
I mustn't say 'Have you heard the bad news'.
I mustn't say 'Have you heard the bad news'.
I mustn't say 'Have you heard the bad news'.
I mustn't say 'Have you heard the bad news'.
I mustn't say 'Have you heard the bad news'.
I mustn't say 'Have you heard the bad news'.
 
Only it's so tempting!

ippy.

Enki

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3870
Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #36657 on: October 05, 2019, 01:59:56 PM »
But will the magic dragon in your shed become the most famous being that ever lived, changing the world over the next two thousand years?

And arguably this Christian influence(I assume you mean this) was not necessarily all for the good. was it? Could it be that we would have been better without it?

As well as your predilection for the works of C. S. Lewis and Chesterton try reading 'The Darkening Age: The Christian Destruction of the Classical World' by Catherine Nixey to get a classicist's assessment of some of what early Christianity managed to achieve. Or, at the very least, try reading this review:

https://www.theguardian.com/books/2017/dec/28/the-darkening-age-the-christian-destruction-of-the-classical-world-by-catherine-nixey
« Last Edit: October 05, 2019, 02:23:22 PM by enki »
Sometimes I wish my first word was 'quote,' so that on my death bed, my last words could be 'end quote.'
Steven Wright

torridon

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 10209
Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #36658 on: October 05, 2019, 02:43:32 PM »
That was a sobering read ....

Alan Burns

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 10210
  • I lay it down of my own free will. John 10:18
Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #36659 on: October 05, 2019, 05:02:39 PM »
OK, that's just a move of the goal posts there.  So, why would Jesus hide in the first place ?  There is usually a reason why people hide, it is because they don't want to be found.
From my reading of the scriptures, I see no evidence of Jesus hiding.

If God chooses to make Himself known by becoming one of us, who am I to suggest He should have done it differently?  Personally I think it works very well.  Would you suggest that because God's chosen method of revelation is not to your liking, it is a valid reason to reject God?
The truth will set you free  - John 8:32
Truth is not an abstraction, but a person - Edith Stein
Free will, though it makes evil possible, is also the only thing that makes possible any love or goodness or joy worth having. - CS Lewis
Joy is the Gigantic Secret of Christians - GK Chesterton

Roses

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 7989
Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #36660 on: October 05, 2019, 05:07:30 PM »
From my reading of the scriptures, I see no evidence of Jesus hiding.

If God chooses to make Himself known by becoming one of us, who am I to suggest He should have done it differently?  Personally I think it works very well.  Would you suggest that because God's chosen method of revelation is not to your liking, it is a valid reason to reject God?

A very good reason to reject its existence as there is no evidence to support it. Just because something is stated in the Bible doesn't automatically make it true.
"At the going down of the sun and in the morning we will remember them."

bluehillside Retd.

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 19469
Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #36661 on: October 05, 2019, 05:09:54 PM »
AB,

Quote
From my reading of the scriptures, I see no evidence of Jesus hiding.

If God chooses to make Himself known by becoming one of us, who am I to suggest He should have done it differently?  Personally I think it works very well.  Would you suggest that because God's chosen method of revelation is not to your liking, it is a valid reason to reject God?

No, there are much better reasons than that for rejecting your faith belief "God" - like the lack of coherent logic or evidence for such a thing existing at all. Your crashing from fallacy to fallacy apparently indifferent to the problem that they are fallacies to justify that faith belief isn't helping you one jot either. 

Oh, and as you haven't had the courtesy to reply despite being reminded can I take it that you have no intention of addressing the rebuttals I made to your mistakes about what evolution actually entails and about your problem with circular reasoning?

What does that say about you do you think? 
"Don't make me come down there."

God

Alan Burns

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 10210
  • I lay it down of my own free will. John 10:18
Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #36662 on: October 05, 2019, 05:12:01 PM »
And arguably this Christian influence(I assume you mean this) was not necessarily all for the good. was it? Could it be that we would have been better without it?

As well as your predilection for the works of C. S. Lewis and Chesterton try reading 'The Darkening Age: The Christian Destruction of the Classical World' by Catherine Nixey to get a classicist's assessment of some of what early Christianity managed to achieve. Or, at the very least, try reading this review:

https://www.theguardian.com/books/2017/dec/28/the-darkening-age-the-christian-destruction-of-the-classical-world-by-catherine-nixey
extract from another detailed review of this book:

Catherine Nixey is a journalist, not a historian, and this book is a piece of deliberate propaganda, not an attempt to present a balanced portrait of what happened in Late Antiquity. Nixey in turn vastly inflates evidence that support her 'Evil Christians' argument and ignores masses of evidence that would undermine it. This is fundamentally dishonest or just ignorant writing.


I doubt if I will find time to read this book.
The truth will set you free  - John 8:32
Truth is not an abstraction, but a person - Edith Stein
Free will, though it makes evil possible, is also the only thing that makes possible any love or goodness or joy worth having. - CS Lewis
Joy is the Gigantic Secret of Christians - GK Chesterton

Stranger

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 8236
  • Lightly seared on the reality grill.
Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #36663 on: October 05, 2019, 05:16:26 PM »
If God chooses to make Himself known by becoming one of us, who am I to suggest He should have done it differently?  Personally I think it works very well.  Would you suggest that because God's chosen method of revelation is not to your liking, it is a valid reason to reject God?

You can't reject something you don't think is credible to begin with.

It's the multiple contradictions involved in a god who is supposedly just and fair, omnipotent and omniscient, has an important message for everybody, and then chooses to deliver it by appearing as a human for a few years and let people write about it long after the (supposed) fact. The upshot being that the whole message gets lost amongst all the other religions of the world and that even the people who claim to be followers can't agree amongst themselves about exactly what the message is.

It's a story that makes no sense at all - and that's before we get to many versions of the supposed message, which are equally riddled with absurdity and contradictions.

And all of that's before we get to the total lack of any objective evidence to support the notion of a god, even if the story made some sense (which it obviously doesn't).
x(∅ ∈ x ∧ ∀y(yxy ∪ {y} ∈ x))

bluehillside Retd.

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 19469
Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #36664 on: October 05, 2019, 05:17:40 PM »
AB,

Quote
extract from another detailed review of this book:

Catherine Nixey is a journalist, not a historian, and this book is a piece of deliberate propaganda, not an attempt to present a balanced portrait of what happened in Late Antiquity. Nixey in turn vastly inflates evidence that support her 'Evil Christians' argument and ignores masses of evidence that would undermine it. This is fundamentally dishonest or just ignorant writing.


I doubt if I will find time to read this book.

So you went to Amazon, ignored the 69% 5 star reviews and the 13% 4 star reviews, found one from the 8% of 1 star reviews that agreed with your prejudice and then selected only that one to post here without bothering with a citation as if that somehow balanced out the Guardian review.

You should be ashamed of yourself, you really should.
« Last Edit: October 05, 2019, 05:26:42 PM by bluehillside Retd. »
"Don't make me come down there."

God

Nearly Sane

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 64323
Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #36665 on: October 05, 2019, 05:18:51 PM »
extract from another detailed review of this book:

Catherine Nixey is a journalist, not a historian, and this book is a piece of deliberate propaganda, not an attempt to present a balanced portrait of what happened in Late Antiquity. Nixey in turn vastly inflates evidence that support her 'Evil Christians' argument and ignores masses of evidence that would undermine it. This is fundamentally dishonest or just ignorant writing.


I doubt if I will find time to read this book.


Can you tell me why I should take Mr S R Wigmore's review on Amazon seriously? Can you tell me what Mr S R Wigmore's beliefs are? Can you tell me why you didn't link to where the quote came from?

https://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/profile/amzn1.account.AEOMJJ7IASBQATQZAOH3IL7V5CGQ/ref=cm_cr_dp_mb_gw_tr?ie=UTF8

torridon

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 10209
Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #36666 on: October 05, 2019, 05:46:45 PM »
From my reading of the scriptures, I see no evidence of Jesus hiding.

If God chooses to make Himself known by becoming one of us, who am I to suggest He should have done it differently?  Personally I think it works very well.  Would you suggest that because God's chosen method of revelation is not to your liking, it is a valid reason to reject God?

So you think that Kanye West 'found God' it was because he picked up a Bible and read about Jesus.  Lots of people have read the Bible but they didn't 'find God' in the sense intended by your phrase.  Many people read it and and come to different conclusions about it.

But anyways, I was more interested in the here and now, not ancient times in Roman Judea, if Kanye West found him last week but others get no sight of him, that implies God/Jesus is in hiding, to some at least.  If he has the power to create a universe on a whim, why does he not manifest here and now to all and sundry putting the atheism/theism debate to bed once and for all ?  Does he revel in all this confusion ? What is the point of it ?

Enki

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3870
Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #36667 on: October 05, 2019, 07:34:32 PM »
extract from another detailed review of this book:

Catherine Nixey is a journalist, not a historian, and this book is a piece of deliberate propaganda, not an attempt to present a balanced portrait of what happened in Late Antiquity. Nixey in turn vastly inflates evidence that support her 'Evil Christians' argument and ignores masses of evidence that would undermine it. This is fundamentally dishonest or just ignorant writing.


I doubt if I will find time to read this book.

I don't know how you manage to shoot yourself in the foot so often, Alan, but that you seem to do. As others have said, your quote gave no idea of its source, leaving it to others to find where it came from, not a very good idea as it has turned out.

I really didn't expect that you would read it, Alan. I thought that you might find it far too uncomfortable. At least I am willing to look at different views, and try to examine them hopefully without prejudice and with a critical eye. Indeed, I have read Lewis's 'Mere Christianity' at least twice, and, on your advice, I downloaded a copy of his 'Miracles' which I have also read.

I didn't even suggest that Catherine Nixey was right, did I? I simply suggested that it might be a worthwhile book to read(I personally think it is) because it might give some sort of balance to your very obvious biases. However, as usual, it seems that you immediately dismiss anything  that goes against your heartfelt beliefs. So be it.  :)
Sometimes I wish my first word was 'quote,' so that on my death bed, my last words could be 'end quote.'
Steven Wright

Alan Burns

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 10210
  • I lay it down of my own free will. John 10:18
Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #36668 on: October 05, 2019, 08:08:26 PM »
AB,

So you went to Amazon, ignored the 69% 5 star reviews and the 13% 4 star reviews, found one from the 8% of 1 star reviews that agreed with your prejudice and then selected only that one to post here without bothering with a citation as if that somehow balanced out the Guardian review.
Sounds like an ad pop argument
I was merely giving an extract from a very detailed review I found on Amazon which presented an alternative perspective to that given in the Guardian.
Sorry I omitted a citation.
The truth will set you free  - John 8:32
Truth is not an abstraction, but a person - Edith Stein
Free will, though it makes evil possible, is also the only thing that makes possible any love or goodness or joy worth having. - CS Lewis
Joy is the Gigantic Secret of Christians - GK Chesterton

Alan Burns

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 10210
  • I lay it down of my own free will. John 10:18
Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #36669 on: October 05, 2019, 08:16:58 PM »

I didn't even suggest that Catherine Nixey was right, did I? I simply suggested that it might be a worthwhile book to read(I personally think it is) because it might give some sort of balance to your very obvious biases. However, as usual, it seems that you immediately dismiss anything  that goes against your heartfelt beliefs. So be it.  :)
Discovering bad behaviour from some people who deem themselves to be Christian does not detract from the message of the Gospels.  And as indicated in the review I quoted, there are many devout Christians who do follow the teachings of the Bible, but media reporters will tend to ignore these in favour of highlighting examples of bad behaviour which apparently sell more books.
The truth will set you free  - John 8:32
Truth is not an abstraction, but a person - Edith Stein
Free will, though it makes evil possible, is also the only thing that makes possible any love or goodness or joy worth having. - CS Lewis
Joy is the Gigantic Secret of Christians - GK Chesterton

Enki

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3870
Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #36670 on: October 05, 2019, 10:28:12 PM »
Discovering bad behaviour from some people who deem themselves to be Christian does not detract from the message of the Gospels.  And as indicated in the review I quoted, there are many devout Christians who do follow the teachings of the Bible, but media reporters will tend to ignore these in favour of highlighting examples of bad behaviour which apparently sell more books.

Naughty, Alan, naughty. ::)
Whether you think some people are Christian or not doesn't concern me and certainly hasn't anything to do with the argument that you presented I.E.that
Quote
the most famous being that ever lived, changing the world over the next two thousand years

The influence of Christ over this time has changed the world over circa 2000 years as the most famous being that ever lived, I think that is quite possibly true and therefore I am agreeing with you(assuming you are referring to Christ). However you don't get to pick and choose those influences. At the very least there are influences that many people would condemn as well as those that many people would endorse. Catherine Nixey, a classical scholar as well as a journalist, has researched and written a very interesting book which enumerates some of those negative influences which are a direct result of the influence of Christ. That is why I asked the question: Could it be that we would have been better without this influence?

Here is another review, from Bettany Hughes, of the New York Times:

https://www.nytimes.com/2018/06/08/books/review/catherine-nixey-darkening-age.html
Sometimes I wish my first word was 'quote,' so that on my death bed, my last words could be 'end quote.'
Steven Wright

Roses

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 7989
Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #36671 on: October 06, 2019, 08:19:40 AM »
Discovering bad behaviour from some people who deem themselves to be Christian does not detract from the message of the Gospels.  And as indicated in the review I quoted, there are many devout Christians who do follow the teachings of the Bible, but media reporters will tend to ignore these in favour of highlighting examples of bad behaviour which apparently sell more books.

Jesus behaved very badly when he frightened a herd of pigs over a cliff when playing an exorcism game.
"At the going down of the sun and in the morning we will remember them."

Alan Burns

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 10210
  • I lay it down of my own free will. John 10:18
Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #36672 on: October 06, 2019, 09:40:04 AM »
Could it be that we would have been better without this influence?

It is impossible to speculate what this world would be like if Jesus had not been born.

But what I can say with some degree of certainty is that I am a better person than I would have been without my Christian faith.
The truth will set you free  - John 8:32
Truth is not an abstraction, but a person - Edith Stein
Free will, though it makes evil possible, is also the only thing that makes possible any love or goodness or joy worth having. - CS Lewis
Joy is the Gigantic Secret of Christians - GK Chesterton

Roses

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 7989
Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #36673 on: October 06, 2019, 10:32:20 AM »
It is impossible to speculate what this world would be like if Jesus had not been born.

But what I can say with some degree of certainty is that I am a better person than I would have been without my Christian faith.

In what way are you better?
"At the going down of the sun and in the morning we will remember them."

Gordon

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 18266
Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #36674 on: October 06, 2019, 10:36:07 AM »
It is impossible to speculate what this world would be like if Jesus had not been born.

But what I can say with some degree of certainty is that I am a better person than I would have been without my Christian faith.

And I can say I am a better person than I would otherwise have been because I discovered motorcycling (*insert alternative personal obsession here) at an early age.