Searching for GOD...

[torridon]

The impossible contradiction is in your statement that I am free to do what I want and adhering to your belief that every event is predetermined by past events.  The latter prohibits any form of freedom by making everything just inevitable, unavoidable reactions to past events over which there is no control other than the laws of physics.

Yes we are all 'free' to do what we want.  So is every cat, dog and pigeon.  None of us however is free to choose which wants to have.  What we do is act on the desires we have, whichever desire is uppermost gets executed.

[bluehillside Retd.]

AB,

But I do answer it.

No you don't. You avoid answering at all costs.

The fact is that you consciously choose to label my answers as logically impossible.

Yes but "consciously choosing" is an experiential description, not an explanation. I also experience touching the keys in front of me, but I know that "touching" is not an explanation of an underlying reality. Why is this so do difficult for you to grasp, even conceptually?   

Yet my freedom to point out the flaw in your logic aptly demonstrates this flaw.

You haven't pointed out a flaw - you've just ignored the argument that undoes you.

Our freedom to make consciously driven choices is a reality which will keep this thread going forever until those who deny this freedom come to terms with their own precious gift of free will.

And yu repeat the old one-two of scientific illiteracy and theobabble to round off. Why bother?

[Alan Burns]

Yet again: you are free to do anything you want, but what you want to do is because of who you are, and who you are is the result of nature, nurture, and experience. You cannot be free of who you are, that doesn't make sense. You cannot choose what you ultimately want to do most - that would be an infinite regress: what do you want to want to do the most, what do you want to want to want to do the most...?

What I want and what I choose to do are two separate things.  My wants exist in my conscious awareness.  My choices are determined by my consciously controlled will, not by my wants.  I am not a biological robot.  My conscious awareness allows me freedom to choose rather than just react.

[bluehillside Retd.]

AB,

What I want and what I choose to do are two separate things.  My wants exist in my conscious awareness.  My choices are determined by my consciously controlled will, not by my wants.  I am not a biological robot.  My conscious awareness allows me to choose rather than just react.

More stupidity. "What you choose" is itself a want. It's not that difficult, even for you.

[Alan Burns]

Yes but "consciously choosing" is an experiential description, not an explanation. I also experience touching the keys in front of me, but I know that "touching" is not an explanation of an underlying reality. Why is this so do difficult for you to grasp, even conceptually?   

But as I have pointed out before, the mechanics involved in pressing a key are irrelevant to the cause and effect scenario.  The downward motion of your finger is the cause of the key being depressed.  The mechanics of how I make consciously driven choices is irrelevant to the fact that what I consciously choose to do gets done.

[Alan Burns]

AB,

More stupidity. "What you choose" is itself a want. It's not that difficult, even for you.

I think you need to discern the difference between your will and your wants.  Our wants exist in our conscious awareness.  Our will is consciously invoked.

[Stranger]

What I want and what I choose to do are two separate things.  My wants exist in my conscious awareness.  My choices are determined by my consciously controlled will, not by my wants.

Seriously, you want to go round this idiocy yet again? Your "consciously controlled will" decides what it wants to do, but that is separate from your wants? Even you must see how foolish that is, no?

[bluehillside Retd.]

AB,

But as I have pointed out before, the mechanics involved in pressing a key are irrelevant to the cause and effect scenario.  The downward motion of your finger is the cause of the key being depressed.  The mechanics of how I make consciously driven choices is irrelevant to the fact that what I consciously choose to do gets done.

And as ever you completely miss the point. Try to concentrate now: the point here isn’t about pressing keys; the point is that the way we experience an event cannot be relied on necessarily to provide the explanation for that event. “Touching” keys is just one example of that. “Free” will is another.   

I think you need to discern the difference between your will and your wants.  Our wants exist in our conscious awareness.  Our will is consciously invoked.

Wrong again. Your “will” is a want. You can’t want something you don’t want – try it if you don’t believe me.

[Alan Burns]

Seriously, you want to go round this idiocy yet again? Your "consciously controlled will" decides what it wants to do, but that is separate from your wants? Even you must see how foolish that is, no?

You obviously wanted to reply to my post, but you consciously chose which words to reply with.  You have the freedom to choose how to respond.

[Alan Burns]

AB,

And as ever you completely miss the point. Try to concentrate now: the point here isn’t about pressing keys; the point is that the way we experience an event cannot be relied on necessarily to provide the explanation for that event. “Touching” keys is just one example of that. “Free” will is another.   

Wrong again. Your “will” is a want. You can’t want something you don’t want – try it if you don’t believe me.

All the things I want to do - they all exist in my conscious awareness, and from within my conscious awareness I have the freedom to choose how, when and where to indulge whichever of my wants I choose to invoke - or choose to do nothing if I so wish.  My conscious will can override my conscious wants.

[Outrider]

I think you missed the point.
Belief in fairies played no part in building the civilised society we live in today.
Belief if God played a major part in building our modern society.
This is just to show how ridiculous it is to compare belief in fairies with belief in God.

No-one is arguing that belief in the Abrahamic god doesn't exist, so it shouldn't have any bearing whether or not that belief has had any effect on modern society.

O.

[Outrider]

When you come to terms with what a conscious entity of awareness can or can't comprise, you should realise that it comprises more than mere physical reactions, and this is the "something else" which is aware of physical reactions, but not controlled by them.

How can I 'come to terms' with something that you've only asserted but completely failed to adequately demonstrate or explain?  It's logically nonsensical and flies in the face of what we can support with evidence.  I don't have any obligation to 'come to terms' with it until and unless someone can actually justify thinking that it's real.

It is short sighted because scientific investigation is limited to physical entities, so anything non physical will be overlooked or ignored or presumed not to exist.

The scientific method is limited solely to those things which can be shown to have an effect; nothing more, and nothing less.  If your conjectured 'spirit' is somehow 'beyond science' then you are saying that it has no discernible effect; in which case how can it be said to exist at all?

By consciously composing this post.

Except that I didn't consciously compose this post; I subconsciously composed it, and then consciously realised after the fact.

O.

[Alan Burns]

AB,

And as ever you completely miss the point. Try to concentrate now: the point here isn’t about pressing keys; the point is that the way we experience an event cannot be relied on necessarily to provide the explanation for that event. “Touching” keys is just one example of that. “Free” will is another.   

Our freedom to choose is not comparable with the mechanics involved in touching a key.  The reality is that we have the power to consciously choose what we do, think or say.  Just as the reality of moving your finger causes a key to be depressed.

[Stranger]

You obviously wanted to reply to my post, but you consciously chose which words to reply with.  You have the freedom to choose how to respond.

Yes - and how I responded was due to who I am - otherwise it couldn't be me that was free to do so. Who I am is due to my nature, nurture, and experience.

My conscious will can override my conscious wants.

Oh, FFS! how does it do that? Because of what it wants to do most, or just because of nothing?

[Alan Burns]

Except that I didn't consciously compose this post; I subconsciously composed it, and then consciously realised after the fact.

O.

Do you seriously believe that your considerable consciously driven intelligence plays no part in composing your posts?

[Alan Burns]

Yes - and how I responded was due to who I am - otherwise it couldn't be me that was free to do so. Who I am is due to my nature, nurture, and experience.

And they all exist in your conscious awareness when you invoke your conscious choice.  You are consciously aware of these influences, but they alone do not determine your choice.

Oh, FFS! how does it do that? Because of what it wants to do most, or just because of nothing?

It is my consciously invoked act of will.

[torridon]

You obviously wanted to reply to my post, but you consciously chose which words to reply with.  You have the freedom to choose how to respond.

And your choice of how to respond would be the option that held the most appeal.  This is really not so difficult.  It is how minds evolved to resolve choice between options.  If there were no such principle or mechanism, then nothing with a brain would survive and there'd be nothing but pond slime and microbes on this planet.

[Alan Burns]

The human mind has within it far more mysteries than human investigation will ever solve.  Instead of trying to analyse our amazing gift of freedom - and come up with the bizarre conclusion that it does not exist, we should be making full use of this precious gift and use it as our Creator intended - for the eternal salvation of all souls.

[torridon]

The human mind has within it far more mysteries than human investigation will ever solve.  Instead of trying to analyse our amazing gift of freedom - and come up with the bizarre conclusion that it does not exist, we should be making full use of this precious gift and use it as our Creator intended - for the eternal salvation of all souls.

In the absence of any evidence for a Creator, and in the absence of any evidence for freedom being a 'gift' and in the absence of any evidence for 'souls', a bit of a non-starter. that one, Alan.

[Gordon]

The human mind has within it far more mysteries than human investigation will ever solve.  Instead of trying to analyse our amazing gift of freedom - and come up with the bizarre conclusion that it does not exist, we should be making full use of this precious gift and use it as our Creator intended - for the eternal salvation of all souls.

The only amazing thing here, Alan, is your ability to pack so many fallacies into just two sentences - you clearly have a talent for it.

As regards mystery, the one that puzzles me is why you insist on trying, and failing, to portray your religious faith as being some kind of knowledge.

[Nearly Sane]

The human mind has within it far more mysteries than human investigation will ever solve.  Instead of trying to analyse our amazing gift of freedom - and come up with the bizarre conclusion that it does not exist, we should be making full use of this precious gift and use it as our Creator intended - for the eternal salvation of all souls.

Instead of trying to evidence anything, making shite up and saying it is fact. You are a disgrace to reason, a disgrace to logic , but most of all a disgrace to your own belief and yourself as you make so little effort to present a case that you piss on the god that you present as a psychopath.

[Alan Burns]

In the absence of any evidence for a Creator, and in the absence of any evidence for freedom being a 'gift' and in the absence of any evidence for 'souls', a bit of a non-starter. that one, Alan.

The evidence is there in abundance for anyone who genuinely tries to find it.

[Alan Burns]

The only amazing thing here, Alan, is your ability to pack so many fallacies into just two sentences - you clearly have a talent for it.

As regards mystery, the one that puzzles me is why you insist on trying, and failing, to portray your religious faith as being some kind of knowledge.

You would appear to be very selective in what you deem to be knowledge.

[Alan Burns]

And your choice of how to respond would be the option that held the most appeal.  This is really not so difficult.  It is how minds evolved to resolve choice between options.  If there were no such principle or mechanism, then nothing with a brain would survive and there'd be nothing but pond slime and microbes on this planet.

I find the expression "the option that held the most appeal" interesting.  I am intrigued to know what precisely quantifies the amount of appeal within the subconscious neural activity which you deem to be responsible for our conscious choices.

[Nearly Sane]

The evidence is there in abundance for anyone who genuinely tries to find it.

This posits a different methodology of what is evidence since science is methodologicallly naturailstic. Now I've asked this forty or fifty times in this thread but what is your method and definition of evidence? And so far you haven't provided one, and would appear to being dishonest in your claim above in that you make the claim and then avoid the question, so yet fucking, what's you methodology for supernatural claims?