Searching for GOD...

[bluehillside Retd.]

AB,

I credit God with our ability to choose.

No doubt you do.

An ability which nature alone cannot give.

Wrong.

We are all free to choose - whether or not it is the "right" thing.

At one level, yes “we” are. “Choice” though cannot be unfettered from the underlying reality of cause and effect – or at least it can’t without invoking magic as your alternative.

[bluehillside Retd.]

AB,

Your quest for truth is an encouraging sign…

Don’t be so bloody patronising. Christine’s ability to think (as well as her compassion by the way) is a long way ahead of yours.

…pertaining to your own spiritual nature which looks beyond what our physical senses provide and consciously seeks what lies beyond.

Bullshit.

I personally have come to recognise that the true nature of everything is beyond human understanding…

Quite possibly. That’s why some people use reason and evidence to find out more.

… and now know that the divine revelations of the New Testament are all we need for the present.

No you don’t “know” that at all – or at least you don’t if all you have to validate your beliefs is the hopeless arguments you’ve attempted here.

[Dicky Underpants]

It's pathetic and depressing.  I don't know why, after decades of disappointment, I still hope for any credible arguments from theists at all.  I'm so desperate for there to be an explanation for life, the universe and everything, I just keep on reading.  John Stuart Mill and Thomas Paine make infinitely more sense than CS Lewis and Rob Bell, unfortunately for my peace of mind.

Hi Christine

Your 'search for meaning' seems in some ways to mirror my own in the past. I probably kept up the search for an explanation to 'life the universe and everything' until I was at least 45. I eventually gave up as a bad job the search for universal meaning (in which humanity and myself might have some ultimate significance). I suppose I've been calmer since - I certainly don't rage at 'God's injustice' any more.
As for C.S. Lewis - urrgh! Meaningless, puerile, and pathetically simplistic in his arguments. What sort of 'professor' was he, I used to think. Should have stuck to poetry criticism, and other intellectual table-tennis of that kind.

[Gordon]

Your quest for truth is an encouraging sign pertaining to your own spiritual nature which looks beyond what our physical senses provide and consciously seeks what lies beyond.

On what basis is this seeking done? Do you have instructions pertaining to and/or descriptions of the 'beyond'?

I personally have come to recognise that the true nature of everything is beyond human understanding and now know that the divine revelations of the New Testament are all we need for the present.

I see the problem here, Alan: the problem is you.

[ippy]

On what basis is this seeking done? Do you have instructions pertaining to and/or descriptions of the 'beyond'?

I see the problem here, Alan: the problem is you.

I think you must have spent a lot of your time in a desert country at some time in your life Gordon, do you remember the Vesta dried foods Vesta Curry, Vesta Chow Ming, Chop Suey etc, well at least the dried food could be reconstituted.

Regards, ippy.

[Nearly Sane]

I think you must have spent a lot of your time in a desert country at some time in your life Gordon, do you remember the Vesta dried foods Vesta Curry, Vesta Chow Ming, Chop Suey etc, well at least the dried food could be reconstituted.

Regards, ippy.

I loved the crispy noodles and watching them swell up in the pan. That might have been a god that produced them.

[Nearly Sane]

A wee tribute to this thread hitting 2 Million Views - take that Dr Evil! With appearances from the mad mods, we have 'Alan Burns in Wonderland'


There was a table set out under a tree in front of the house, and Nearly Sane and Gordon were having tea at it: Trentvoyager was sitting between them, fast asleep, and the other two were using him as a cushion, resting their elbows on him, and  talking over his head. `Very uncomfortable for Trentvoyager,’ thought Alan Burns `only, as he's asleep, I suppose he doesn’t mind.’

The table was a large one, but the three were all crowded together at one corner of it: `Two million views! Two million views’ they cried out when they saw Alan Burns coming. `There’s PLENTY of views’ said Alan Burns happily hoping to have converted someone, and he sat down in a large arm-chair at one end of the table.

`Have some wine,’ Nearly Sane said in an encouraging tone.

Alan Burns looked all round the table, but there was nothing on it but tea. `I don’t see any wine, I see  the blood of our Lord,’ he remarked.

`There isn’t any,’ said Nearly Sane.

`Then it wasn’t very civil of you to offer it,’ said Alan Burn unctuously.

`It wasn’t very civil of you to post without reading other posts’ said Nearly Sane.

`I didn’t know it was YOUR thread,’ said Alan Burns; `it’s posted on by a great many more than three.’

`Your post wants modding,’ said Gordon. He had been looking at Alan Burns for some time with great curiosity, and this was his first speech.

`You should learn not to make personal remarks,’ Alan Burns said oleaginously; `it’s very rude.’

Gordon opened his eyes very wide on hearing this; but all he SAID was, `Why is Searching for God like a writing-desk?’

`Come, we shall have some fun now!’ thought Alan Burns `I’m glad they’ve begun asking riddles.–I am a member of Mensa,’ he added aloud.

`Do you mean that you think you can find out the answer to it?’ said Nearly Sane.

`Exactly so,’ said Alan Burns.

`Then you should say what you mean,’ Nearly Sane went on.

`I do,’ Alan Burns fallaciously replied; `at least–at least I mean what I say–that’s the same thing, you know.’

`Not the same thing a bit!’ said Gordon. `You might just as well say that “I see what I eat” is the same thing as “I eat what I see”!’

`You might just as well say,’ added Nearly Sane, `that “I like what I get” is the same thing as “I get what I like”!’

`You might just as well say,’ added Trentvoyager, who seemed to be talking in his sleep, `that “I breathe when I sleep” is the same thing as “I sleep when I breathe”!’

[SusanDoris]

That is brilliant, NS.

[Alan Burns]

That is brilliant, NS.

Yes,
A fine example of NS's freedom to consciously drive his own thought processes. 

[ekim]

Yes,
A fine example of NS's freedom to consciously drive his own thought processes. 

... or is it God driving his thought processes in an effort to teach you the errors of your ways? 

[Outrider]

Yes,
A fine example of NS's freedom to consciously drive his own thought processes. 

A somewhat predictable response?

O.

[Nearly Sane]

Yes,
A fine example of NS's freedom to consciously drive his own thought processes. 

Oddly enough, it wasn't,  the idea seemed to appear in my mind from nowhere.

[Stranger]

Yes,
A fine example of NS's freedom to consciously drive his own thought processes. 

A fine example of AB's mindless repetition of points addressed many, many times before...

[ekim]

Oddly enough, it wasn't,  the idea seemed to appear in my mind from nowhere.

... or was it from the Archangel Gabriel? 

[Alan Burns]

AB,
Christine’s ability to think (as well as her compassion by the way) is a long way ahead of yours.

That's not much of a compliment considering that you have previously proclaimed that all our thoughts are predetermined by subconscious brain activity before we become aware of them.  Given this view, what you are effectively saying is that Christine's physically predetermined reactions are somehow superior to the physically predetermined reactions in my material brain.  How can one set of physical reactions be considered to be a long way ahead of another set of physical reactions?  And how can a third set of physical reactions (yours) presume to have the right to declare which is superior? 

[Stranger]

That's not much of a compliment considering that you have previously proclaimed that all our thoughts are predetermined by subconscious brain activity before we become aware of them.  Given this view, what you are effectively saying is that Christine's physically predetermined reactions are somehow superior to the physically predetermined reactions in my material brain.  How can one set of physical reactions be considered to be a long way ahead of another set of physical reactions?  And how can a third set of physical reactions (yours) presume to have the right to declare which is superior? 

That's not much of a compliment considering that you have previously proclaimed that all our thoughts are governed by impossible contradictory magic.  Given this view, what you are effectively saying is that Christine's impossible contradictory magic is somehow superior to the impossible contradictory magic in my mind.  How can one set of impossible contradictory magic be considered to be a long way ahead of another set of impossible contradictory magic?  And how can a third set of impossible contradictory magic presume to have the right to declare which is superior? 

Or how about: people's basic nature, nurture, studying, experience, possible indoctrination, personal beliefs, and all the other factors that have gone into making them who they are, have given them a certain level of ability at logically analysing situations and arguments. Some people are better at it than others.

[Alan Burns]

That's not much of a compliment considering that you have previously proclaimed that all our thoughts are governed by impossible contradictory magic.  Given this view, what you are effectively saying is that Christine's impossible contradictory magic is somehow superior to the impossible contradictory magic in my mind.  How can one set of impossible contradictory magic be considered to be a long way ahead of another set of impossible contradictory magic?  And how can a third set of impossible contradictory magic presume to have the right to declare which is superior? 

But God's miraculous gift of free will is not the impossible contradictory magic you claim it to be, because without this gift you would not have the conscious freedom to proclaim anything - you would just be an inevitable reaction with no freedom, no power and no control - entirely predetermined by nothing but the uncontrollable laws of physics acting on material elements.

Or how about: people's basic nature, nurture, studying, experience, possible indoctrination, personal beliefs, and all the other factors that have gone into making them who they are, have given them a certain level of ability at logically analysing situations and arguments. Some people are better at it than others.

All these factors exist in your present state of conscious awareness, where you have the conscious freedom to analyse them before invoking a final choice on how to consciously react.  No magic involved, just God's gift of conscious freedom.

[Outrider]

But God's miraculous gift of free will is not the impossible contradictory magic you claim it to be, because without this gift you would not have the conscious freedom to proclaim anything - you would just be an inevitable reaction with no freedom, no power and no control - entirely predetermined by nothing but the uncontrollable laws of physics acting on material elements.

And if those uncontrollable laws of physics lead to a situation where he proclaims just that, how would you tell whether it was a miraculous gift or physical determinism?

All these factors exist in your present state of conscious awareness, where you have the conscious freedom to analyse them before invoking a final choice on how to consciously react.  No magic involved, just God's gift of conscious freedom.

If God can 'gift' something that is at once free of what went before, but not random... that's magic, because it defies logic.  Things are either random or consequential, there no logical third way.

O.

[Alan Burns]

And if those uncontrollable laws of physics lead to a situation where he proclaims just that, how would you tell whether it was a miraculous gift or physical determinism?

My conscious freedom allows me to asses the evidence, contemplate the situation and draw a consciously derived conclusion.  All of which would be impossible without my consciously driven freedom to think things out.

If God can 'gift' something that is at once free of what went before, but not random... that's magic, because it defies logic.  Things are either random or consequential, there no logical third way.

O.

God's gift of free will is not magic. It is not random. It is not a physically predetermined reaction.  It is influenced by what went before, but not entirely determined by it.  It is a demonstrable reality of our human existence.

[Stranger]

But God's miraculous gift of free will is not the impossible contradictory magic you claim it to be, because without this gift you would not have the conscious freedom to proclaim anything - you would just be an inevitable reaction with no freedom, no power and no control...

Firstly, you can't address a basic contradiction in your own view by criticising what you see as the alternative. Your view of choices not being deterministic (and, no, deterministic doesn't mean "determined by...") and not random is a contradiction.

Secondly, this is unmitigated, thought- and reasoning-free drivel for exactly the same reasons that it was all the other times you've posted it, and that you've never addressed.

...entirely predetermined by nothing but the uncontrollable laws of physics acting on material elements.

And using language to try to make something sound counter-intuitive is still not a substitute for thought and logic.

All these factors exist in your present state of conscious awareness, where you have the conscious freedom to analyse them before invoking a final choice on how to consciously react.

And "present state of conscious awareness" is still meaningless gibberish.

No magic involved, just God's gift of conscious freedom.

It's not only magic (because you have defined no mechanism), it involves an impossible contradiction - and idiotically repeating it over, and over again, not only won't make it any less daft, it makes you and your faith look stupid.

[Stranger]

It is influenced by what went before, but not entirely determined by it.

Then, to the extent that it isn't, it must be determined by nothing - which means it's random

It is a demonstrable reality of our human existence.

Drivel. You can't demonstrate an impossible contradiction.

[Outrider]

My conscious freedom allows me to asses the evidence, contemplate the situation and draw a consciously derived conclusion.

But based on what?  The apparent phenomena, as described, are indistinguishable.  What about a 'miraculous free will gift from God' decision is self-apparently different from a deterministically derived decision?

All of which would be impossible without my consciously driven freedom to think things out.

We've already established that computers, which do not have consciousness so far as we can tell, are capable of making decisions, so there is nothing in decision making that intrinsically requires consciousness (and, therefore, conscious free will).

God's gift of free will is not magic.

Everything gods are alleged to do is magic - it's acts of will changing the basis of reality without resorting to the natural laws of cause and effect, or directly manipulating that cause and effect - if that's not magic, what is?

It is not random.

Then it's not free.

It is not a physically predetermined reaction.

Then it's random.

It is influenced by what went before, but not entirely determined by it.

How? What is that middle path between random and non-random - it's 'a little bit random'?

It is a demonstrable reality of our human existence.

Then demonstrate it, so far you've simply asserted it.

O.

[Sebastian Toe]

But God's miraculous gift of free will is not the impossible contradictory magic you claim it to be, because without this gift you would not have the conscious freedom to proclaim anything - you would just be an inevitable reaction with no freedom, no power and no control - entirely predetermined by nothing but the uncontrollable laws of physics acting on material elements.All these factors exist in your present state of conscious awareness, where you have the conscious freedom to analyse them before invoking a final choice on how to consciously react.  No magic involved, just God's gift of conscious freedom.

One more, example of a biological brain producing output under entirely deterministic principles, for the collection.
No soul required.

[torridon]

But God's miraculous gift of free will is not the impossible contradictory magic you claim it to be, because without this gift you would not have the conscious freedom to proclaim anything - you would just be an inevitable reaction with no freedom, no power and no control - entirely predetermined by nothing but the uncontrollable laws of physics acting on material elements.All these factors exist in your present state of conscious awareness, where you have the conscious freedom to analyse them before invoking a final choice on how to consciously react.  No magic involved, just God's gift of conscious freedom.

Even with conscious freedom you cannot want something you don't want or believe something you don't believe.  Therefore, any choice we make is the option that we most want; this is something that we can never have any control over.

[Alan Burns]

We've already established that computers, which do not have consciousness so far as we can tell, are capable of making decisions, so there is nothing in decision making that intrinsically requires consciousness (and, therefore, conscious free will).

All computer programs are a reflection of the conscious awareness and conscious choices of the humans responsible for programming them.  Whatever "decisions" a program makes will be a result of the conscious intentions derived from human choices.  If you trace the cause and effect chains of physical reactions from the computer output back through time, you will inevitably come to whatever causes conscious choices to occur within the human brain of the programmer, so computer programs alone can offer no insight into the ability of material entities to make choices.  Any computer program is just a reaction to whatever actions were consciously made by the programmer.