Searching for GOD...

[torridon]

They have the freedom to look beyond their initial reactions to find deeper revelations, or not bother.

Freedom is not the issue here.  If you don't find something convincing you are unlikely to go on pursuing further.  A time comes when you realise you've been barking up the wrong tree wasting time for too long.  So what happens to people who find it unconvincing, to people who don't get replies to their prayers and go look elsewhere for truth ?

[torridon]

And there are some who have discovered the truth in Christianity, but still choose to reject it.  I have come across a definition of a sinner as one who loves evil rather than good.

You cannot 'reject' something you find convincing.  You cannot disbelieve something you believe.  What can happen, and this is probably the case with paedophile priests, is that people can be compromised and conflicted by opposing desires.  In fact most people are conflicted to some or other degree. Who has not passed a down and out in the street and not felt a twinge of conscience about not stopping to help.

[torridon]

Our likes and dislikes are not a choice.  We have covered this several times before.Computer programs have no self awareness, so no capacity to make conscious choices.
My mind is not a computer.  It is me.  I have the freedom to consciously choose my thoughts, words and actions regardless of my likes and dislikes.

Nonetheless, a mind, like a computer program, must operate on logical principles, and clearly this is the case, minds confer immense survival value.  Were it the case that the subliminal workings of mind were illogical then we would be making random irrational choices all the time, very quickly excluding ourselves from the gene pool.  So at the heart of a working mind lies a simple principle that enables the resolution of choice - all options, impressions, sensations, are rendered in terms of a common currency of emotional value so that rival options can be weighed against each other as in an If-Then-Else statement.  I don't get to choose whether I like that taste of durian and that will play it's part in how the choice of whether to take another bite is resolved.  There may be other considerations to be weighed, perhaps my host might be offended by my unappreciative response, and that too has its emotional value.  The choice of whether to take another bite is resolved by weighing the emotional value of rival options, neither of which I have control over.

[Stranger]

Presumably you consider my mind to be just a piece of material controlled by predetermined chains of cause and effect.
So please explain how the power to stop making up nonsense phrases can be initiated.
Where does this power come from?

The same place it did all the other times this has been explained to you (and not only be me) - why would I do it again, when all you do is ignore it a post the same idiotic question as if nobody had said anything about it?

Are you just too dim to understand the answers? Too afraid to think about it? Have you got serious memory problems? Do you not care because you just want to repeat yourself in case you might convince lurkers? What's the point?

[Roses]

I have the freedom to choose whether or not to follow Jesus by accepting the teachings of his appointed church.

Appointed Church? If Jesus was alive today, and a decent sort of bloke, he would want nothing to do with the RCC considering the damage it has done over the centuries one way and another. He may also consider the saying of hail mary's  as a payment for one's wrongdoing as superstitious garbage. 

[torridon]

I have the freedom to choose whether or not to follow Jesus by accepting the teachings of the self-appointed RCC church.

FIFY

[Roses]

FIFY

Nice one!

[ippy]

I have the freedom to choose whether or not to follow Jesus by accepting the teachings of his appointed church.

The R C C's always shooting itself in the foot and always has been Alan, so how are your feet?

Commiserations to you Alan, regards, ippy. 

[Sebastian Toe]

Your mind.


Presumably you consider my mind to be just a piece of material controlled by predetermined chains of cause and effect.
So please explain how the power to stop making up nonsense phrases can be initiated.
Where does this power come from?

Your mind.
No soul required.

[Robbie]

Alan:- And there are some who have discovered the truth in Christianity, but still choose to reject it.  I have come across a definition of a sinner as one who loves evil rather than good.


No, a sinner is a person like any of us, a person with flaws, weaknesses. People who are overall quite good can do bad things and overall bad people can do good things at times. Nobody loves evil but we can like & be attracted to things that are not good, we all can. We're human. Not one of us is perfect.

[Roses]

Mistaken, confused, delusioned perhaps but not liars.
I have encouraged LR not to give up seeking God.
I would encourage anyone not to give up.
We have just one lifetime to find Him.
I pray you will one day.
Keep searching and you will find Him.

Why should one have to search for god if it is out there? It should stop playing stupid games and make itself known in a way which cannot be denied.

[ippy]

Alan:- And there are some who have discovered the truth in Christianity, but still choose to reject it.  I have come across a definition of a sinner as one who loves evil rather than good.


No, a sinner is a person like any of us, a person with flaws, weaknesses. People who are overall quite good can do bad things and overall bad people can do good things at times. Nobody loves evil but we can like & be attracted to things that are not good, we all can. We're human. Not one of us is perfect.

Nonsense all of it, it's a load of old bronze age tripe.

ippy.

[Alan Burns]

You cannot 'reject' something you find convincing.  You cannot disbelieve something you believe.  What can happen, and this is probably the case with paedophile priests, is that people can be compromised and conflicted by opposing desires.  In fact most people are conflicted to some or other degree. Who has not passed a down and out in the street and not felt a twinge of conscience about not stopping to help.

I did not mean rejection in the sense of choosing not to believe.  I agree that it is impossible to choose not to believe in something which they know to be true.  I was talking of people who have discovered the truth of God's existence and His love for them - but then consciously choose to reject that love.  It is considered to be the most serious sin by the RC church and is known as "formal rejection of the Holy Spirit".  It epitomises the reality and power of human freewill.

[Roses]

I did not mean rejection in the sense of choosing not to believe.  I agree that it is impossible to choose not to believe in something which they know to be true.  I was talking of people who have discovered the truth of God's existence and His love for them - but then consciously choose to reject that love.  It is considered to be the most serious sin by the RC church and is known as "formal rejection of the Holy Spirit".  It epitomises the reality and power of human freewill.

As there is no verifiable evidence god exists, it can only be a belief, however deeply held. The phrase, 'truth of god's existence', is inaccurate, because there is nothing to prove it is true. As for what the RCC considers a 'sin' it should be treated with a large container of salt, especially as that institution has turned a blind eye to actual wrong doing like paedophilia! 

[Stranger]

It epitomises the reality and power of human freewill.

Your baseless superstition validates your incoherent and self-contradictory 'argument'....     

[bluehillside Retd.]

AB,

I did not mean rejection in the sense of choosing not to believe.  I agree that it is impossible to choose not to believe in something which they know to be true.  I was talking of people who have discovered the truth of God's existence and His love for them - but then consciously choose to reject that love.  It is considered to be the most serious sin by the RC church and is known as "formal rejection of the Holy Spirit".

Except of course you’ve never managed to make a cogent argument to show that “the truth of God's existence and His love for them” is a truth at all. Start with that problem if you expect the claim to be taken seriously. What actually happens is that sometimes religious people who are honest and who can think realise that the arguments on which they (and you) rely to justify their faith beliefs are false, and so they drop those faith beliefs.   

It epitomises the reality and power of human freewill.

No, it epitomises the reality you’re not alone in being unable to think rationally about what “free” will necessarily can and cannot be.

[Dicky Underpants]

I was talking of people who have discovered the truth of God's existence and His love for them - but then consciously choose to reject that love.  It is considered to be the most serious sin by the RC church and is known as "formal rejection of the Holy Spirit".  It epitomises the reality and power of human freewill.

I doubt there are any such people. There are simply people who firmly believe, or people who are inclined to believe and often doubt, or people who don't believe (which may include those who deny the existence of any god). There may also be a small group of people who believe in the existence of a creator, but consider It evil and hate It  - sometimes Thomas Hardy gave this impression in his novels.

[Dicky Underpants]

  It is considered to be the most serious sin by the RC church.

Whereas all other issues that others might consider of immense importance can safely be subsumed under the axiom of:

"Vouchsafe O Lord to keep us this day without being found out".

[Roses]

Whereas all other issues that others might consider of immense importance can safely be subsumed under the axiom of:

"Vouchsafe O Lord to keep us this day without being found out".

Paedophile priests must say that prayer on a very regular basis.

[torridon]

I did not mean rejection in the sense of choosing not to believe.  I agree that it is impossible to choose not to believe in something which they know to be true.  I was talking of people who have discovered the truth of God's existence and His love for them - but then consciously choose to reject that love.  It is considered to be the most serious sin by the RC church and is known as "formal rejection of the Holy Spirit".  It epitomises the reality and power of human freewill.

Such a claim still founders on the same Achilles heel that always dogs the free will argument : no one can choose to want something they do not want. Maybe there are some people that would not want to love or to be loved, and maybe that would be an indicator of some underlying pathology, perhaps some narcissistic or sociopathic disorder of personality.  Identifying this as 'sin' is merely the shallowness of understanding that characterises the free will claim.  If there really was a God, he would presumably be a whole lot smarter than that, and would understand the reasons behind not wanting to be loved.

[Outrider]

Mistaken, confused, delusioned perhaps but not liars.

Fair enough.

We have just one lifetime to find Him.

That seems a little unfair, on his part.  He doesn't supply any reasonable evidence, indeed makes it a requirement that you accept claims based on faith rather than on sufficient evidence, and inflicts an INFINITE punishment for an entirely justifiable judgement call?  If that's a demonstration of the 'absolute good' that is God, is it any wonder people without faith don't see a point in trying to find it?

Keep searching and you will find Him.

And put him right, presumably?

O.

[bluehillside Retd.]

I was just thinking, what a strange god it must be who sends people like AB who “know the truth” to proselytise on his behalf on street corners and on message boards, but equips them only with logically false arguments to do the job.

Perhaps there’s a piece of casuistry somewhere that addresses this – “yes god’s providing only terrible arguments for his existence thereby forces people to accept his existence on faith alone, some people can do that (therefore god), and some can’t (therefore keep looking or suffer the consequences)". Trouble is, that could apply too to Allah or to leprechauns equally but hey…

[Roses]

I was just thinking, what a strange god it must be who sends people like AB who “know the truth” to proselytise on his behalf on street corners and on message boards, but equips them only with logically false arguments to do the job.

Perhaps there’s a piece of casuistry somewhere that addresses this – “yes god’s providing only terrible arguments for his existence thereby forces people to accept his existence on faith alone, some people can do that (therefore god), and some can’t (therefore keep looking or suffer the consequences)". Trouble is, that could apply too to Allah or to leprechauns equally but hey…

Maybe god enjoys watching them making clowns of themselves.

[Alan Burns]

Just finished reading the book "Why I am a Catholic" by GK Chesterton.  Like many converts, he had a much deeper knowledge and appreciation of the RC church than most cradle Catholics.

The last sentence of this book aptly sums up the essence and aims of my postings on this thread:

But let there be one night when things grow luminous from within: and one day when men seek for all that is buried in themselves, and discover, where she is indeed hidden, behind locked gates and shuttered windows, and doors thrice bolted, the spirit of liberty.

[torridon]

Just finished reading the book "Why I am a Catholic" by GK Chesterton.  Like many converts, he had a much deeper knowledge and appreciation of the RC church than most cradle Catholics.

The last sentence of this book aptly sums up the essence and aims of my postings on this thread:

But let there be one night when things grow luminous from within: and one day when men seek for all that is buried in themselves, and discover, where she is indeed hidden, behind locked gates and shuttered windows, and doors thrice bolted, the spirit of liberty.

I don't see how that typifies the RCC church in particular. In protestant denominations people are encouraged to seek god for themselves through scripture and prayer whereas the catholic church is an authority structure where the Pope interprets scripture and disseminates doctrinal teaching through the clergy. Lay people are not free to find their own truth, they have to accept Papal dictat.