Author Topic: Searching for GOD...  (Read 3893961 times)

torridon

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #38100 on: December 24, 2019, 10:50:06 AM »
I feel the ultimate reality you fail to grasp is that our spiritual nature does not comply to the same time related cause and effect scenario we perceive in this material universe.  Can you grasp the concept of your spiritual self existing in a timeless state of an eternal present?
...

Nope, it makes no sense, that I can see.  If there is some evidence for this, then post it up, give an example.  Notwithstanding whatever philosophical/scientific issues may surround our understanding of time, as far as free will goes, as far as decision making goes, we all obey the arrow of time, we all obey fundamental principles of logic, thus perception takes a finite amount of time and perception precedes response, just as surely as cause precedes effect.

I've never encountered anything in my personal experience that would make me doubt that. If you have, then post an example up.

Stranger

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #38101 on: December 24, 2019, 11:21:27 AM »
I feel the ultimate reality you fail to grasp is that our spiritual nature does not comply to the same time related cause and effect scenario we perceive in this material universe.

You have still provided not one jot of evidence or reasoning to support the assertion that we actually have "spiritual nature". The reasoning that goes from our ability to think and choose to your incredible and contradictory claims about it is still missing.

Regardless, our minds do operate in time and we do make our choices over a period of time, so either our choice making is a deterministic system or it isn't (and therefore involves randomness).

Can you grasp the concept of your spiritual self existing in a timeless state of an eternal present?

This makes no sense. Something that is timeless cannot change, and more specifically cannot make any choices (because a choice is a change).

It may be difficult for our human minds to grasp, but so is the concept of time being eternal, having no beginning or end.   According to physicist Stephen Hawkin, time is a property of this material universe.

This is pretty basic physics actually - and not all that difficult to grasp. It is also irrelevant because minds and choice making require time.

I believe our soul is not of this universe, but can perceive it and interact with it through the window provided by our material body.

But can provide no evidence or reasoning to support your belief.

No one can presume to know what lies beyond this universe, but we do have the divine revelations given to us from the inspired words of the Christian bible.

The bible is almost as incoherent and contradictory as your posts.

What I do know with absolute certainty is that we comprise far more than physically controlled material reactions alone can ever achieve.

You may believe this but you cannot possibly know it. In all your posts here you have totally failed to provide even the slightest hint of any rational reason to take it seriously. Your endless and pointless repetition of "arguments" that have been addressed countless times suggests an unwillingness to even think about arguments that might bring your views into question. You seem intellectually fearful and insecure.
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Gordon

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #38102 on: January 09, 2020, 11:04:53 AM »
So, no posts since Xmas eve - that is unusual for this thread, and I wonder if this might this mean that 'God' has now been found: if so, I think we should be told.

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #38103 on: January 09, 2020, 11:09:32 AM »
So, no posts since Xmas eve - that is unusual for this thread, and I wonder if this might this mean that 'God' has now been found: if so, I think we should be told.

It is unusual for Alan Burns not to have posted on this thread for a while, I hope he is ok.
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Nearly Sane

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #38104 on: January 09, 2020, 11:23:07 AM »
It is unusual for Alan Burns not to have posted on this thread for a while, I hope he is ok.
He logged in on Tuesday

SusanDoris

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #38105 on: January 09, 2020, 01:12:18 PM »
He logged in on Tuesday
Oh dear, does that mean we'll have to start reading more of his blinkered, non-answers to any rational question?
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The Accountant, OBE, KC

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #38106 on: January 09, 2020, 01:14:20 PM »
So, no posts since Xmas eve - that is unusual for this thread, and I wonder if this might this mean that 'God' has now been found: if so, I think we should be told.
From my perspective as a theist, the label "God" is attached to so many different and often contradictory feelings and concepts, it seems unlikely that whatever one person has found within their mind through intuition and labelled 'God' will mean much to someone else who attempts to understand it through reasoning and science.

My older daughter had me read an extract in English (no idea if it was originally written in French) from Henri Bergson's philosophical thoughts in Mind-Energy ( she wanted help trying to understand its meaning in order to do an essay she is required to write as part of her French and Philosophy degree - why is this stuff never written in plain, easy to understand English?)

Anyway, Bergson's metaphysical discussion about the origin, nature and destiny of humans and the interaction between mind and body or between matter, consciousness and intellect seems to say that "there is no decisive fact that clinches the matter, such as we expect to find in physics or chemistry."

AB might be interested by Bergson's view that for consciousness to exist, there is no present - there is only the immediate past and the imminent future, and without a memory of the past and an anticipation of the future any consciousness becomes unconsciousness. Bergson says consciousness is what bridges the past to the future, but that the existence of consciousness in a being is impossible to prove, and that just because consciousness is linked to a brain in humans, it does not follow that lower organisms that do not have a brain do not experience consciousness.

I think the idea seems to be that humans and animals have consciousness and conscious awareness of matter and how to act on matter, but the more intelligent a species has evolved to become, the more it reflects on and has feelings about the actions its consciousness has on matter - it has developed a greater faculty for choosing its actions, which is localised in its brain, than less evolved species.

And while a lot of our thinking and decision-making is automatic, we are more aware of our ability to choose in times of crisis when we feel our choice matters in some meaningful way because of the impact it will have on our future.

So I would say this process of reflection may form part of the "search for God" and whatever it is that is perceived by the person searching can never really be found or communicated to someone else by intellect.

I have not read much more of Bergson than the extract my daughter showed me, so I am not sure if Bergson came up with any psycho-physiological explanation for the mind or why the mind evolved to do what it does or the mechanisms by which consciousness reflects, but to paraphrase he says that matter is what brings division and precision. He also says that for a thought to become distinct, there must be dispersion in words. He then says there is effort expended in producing the material realisation of the indistinct thought as we have to choose how to express our thought. Bergson then says this effort causes us to draw out more from ourselves than we initially had, causing us to be raised above ourselves.

Though I am not sure if "raised above ourselves" is describing humans reflecting on the interaction of consciousness and matter or if Bergson is describing making a choice as some sort of creative evolutionary process which creates new neural pathways in the brain through the mental effort we have just made, or if "raised above ourselves" means something else entirely.
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Alan Burns

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #38107 on: January 10, 2020, 04:43:23 PM »

AB might be interested by Bergson's view that for consciousness to exist, there is no present - there is only the immediate past and the imminent future, and without a memory of the past and an anticipation of the future any consciousness becomes unconsciousness. Bergson says consciousness is what bridges the past to the future, but that the existence of consciousness in a being is impossible to prove, and that just because consciousness is linked to a brain in humans, it does not follow that lower organisms that do not have a brain do not experience consciousness.

Hi Gabriella,
Thanks for another thought provoking post.

I have to disagree with Bergson's view that there can be no present for consciousness to exist.  Our conscious awareness can recall the past, and it can contemplate the future, but this awareness can only exist in the present.  Our conscious awareness exists as a definitive present.  It allows us to chose how to react, rather than just react to the information perceived from the past.
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Stranger

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #38108 on: January 10, 2020, 04:49:13 PM »
Our conscious awareness can recall the past, and it can contemplate the future, but this awareness can only exist in the present.  Our conscious awareness exists as a definitive present.  It allows us to chose how to react, rather than just react to the information perceived from the past.

This is still meaningless gibberish. You need to define what you mean by the "present" without resorting to circularity as you did last time, and you need to say how consciousness can arrive at a choice that isn't fully defined by its antecedents without some part of the process being defined by nothing at all (random).
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Alan Burns

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #38109 on: January 10, 2020, 11:48:52 PM »
This is still meaningless gibberish. You need to define what you mean by the "present" without resorting to circularity as you did last time, and you need to say how consciousness can arrive at a choice that isn't fully defined by its antecedents without some part of the process being defined by nothing at all (random).
The present is simply where our conscious awareness exists.  No circularity involved, just an awareness which can only exist in the present.  How else can you possibly define the present?

And you still seem unable to discern the difference between consciously driven choice and reaction.  Reaction is entirely predefined by past events and is part of the never ending chain of physically driven chains of cause and effect.  Choice is defined by you.
The truth will set you free  - John 8:32
Truth is not an abstraction, but a person - Edith Stein
Free will, though it makes evil possible, is also the only thing that makes possible any love or goodness or joy worth having. - CS Lewis
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torridon

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #38110 on: January 11, 2020, 07:36:45 AM »

I have to disagree with Bergson's view that there can be no present for consciousness to exist.  Our conscious awareness can recall the past, and it can contemplate the future, but this awareness can only exist in the present.  Our conscious awareness exists as a definitive present.  It allows us to chose how to react, rather than just react to the information perceived from the past.

Happy New Year Alan.

I think Bergson's notion of consciousness as something that connects the immediate past to the imminent future is an idea with merit.  It creates an apparent, or seeming, feeling of 'now'.  It is an illusion created by minds. If we try to measure the duration of the present moment, we can only conclude that is must be of zero duration and therefore does not actually exist.  So, our minds create a feeling of a continuous rolling present.

None of this helps your core problem though, that if all influences that guide choice were removed we are left definitionally with a random event rather than a choice, so the way that choice is resolved has to be through a process of weighing rival influences against each other to identify the dominant influence.  Merely observing that we make choices 'in the present' says nothing useful at all about how choice is resolved.

Stranger

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #38111 on: January 11, 2020, 10:24:44 AM »
The present is simply where our conscious awareness exists.  No circularity involved, just an awareness which can only exist in the present.  How else can you possibly define the present?

Our consciousness exists in the present and the present is defined as where our consciousness exists, and you can't see the circularity? The present is, logically and scientifically, meaningless. It has no more relevance than saying "here" to denote a vague position where you happen to be.

You are facing a hard logical argument about a choice that isn't entirely determined by its antecedents having to involve randomness and you're coming up with circular gobbledygook.

And you still seem unable to discern the difference between consciously driven choice and reaction.  Reaction is entirely predefined by past events and is part of the never ending chain of physically driven chains of cause and effect.  Choice is defined by you.

False dichotomy again - and you are yet again confusing the "how" question with the "what". You need to define how a choice is made if it isn't entirely defined by its antecedents. Saying it's "defined by you" just evasion. And you're once again misrepresenting the logic that is against you by linking it to the physical. Why can't you at least have the honesty to stop doing that?

It's hard to be sure because you never set out your "argument" in any sort of logical structure (despite being asked), preferring waffle and hand-waving, but it looks like you originally came up with an argument that goes something like this:
  • Our choices can't just be the result of cause and effect.

  • If we are just physical, then they would be the result of cause and effect.

  • Therefore we aren't physical and must have souls.

  • Therefore god.
The problem being that every single step is wrong. You have given us no reason at all to accept 1. It seems to be a premise to you which is why you keep saying people's posts are evidence for your claims. Then 2 is also not clear because it's an open question. Even if it wasn't we could never be sure we knew everything about the physical world anyway, so 3 doesn't follow. Even if we accepted all of the rest 4 doesn't follow from 3.

It looks like you never even considered the logic of choice-making regarding strict determinism verses randomness which is why you're now tying yourself on knots with all this circular gibberish about "the present".

Yet you claimed to have done a logical analysis! The evidence suggests you don't understand the first thing about logic - which is why you keep on using endless fallacies.
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ekim

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #38112 on: January 11, 2020, 10:36:19 AM »


(1)  I think Bergson's notion of consciousness as something that connects the immediate past to the imminent future is an idea with merit.  It creates an apparent, or seeming, feeling of 'now'.  It is an illusion created by minds. If we try to measure the duration of the present moment, we can only conclude that is must be of zero duration and therefore does not actually exist.  So, our minds create a feeling of a continuous rolling present.

(2)  None of this helps your core problem though, that if all influences that guide choice were removed we are left definitionally with a random event rather than a choice, so the way that choice is resolved has to be through a process of weighing rival influences against each other to identify the dominant influence.  Merely observing that we make choices 'in the present' says nothing useful at all about how choice is resolved.

(1) That about sums it up.  The mind is the creator of the concepts of past, present and future which is probably why meditation practices are attempts to still the mind so that consciousness resides in a state of 'timelessness' which is inconceivable.

(2) I think the Abrahamic religions resolve this by implying that nothing is random as all is determined by the Will of God.  Random becomes a word used by a human self centred mind that is ignorant of this prime cause and uses a catch all word to satisfy the mind's inability to discover a reasonable determining factor.  Choice is resolved by being choice-less by submitting to the Will of God.  The problem arises when a self centred power hungry theocrat conditions others to believe that he knows what that 'Will of God' is.

Alan Burns

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #38113 on: January 11, 2020, 05:04:11 PM »
Happy New Year Alan.

I think Bergson's notion of consciousness as something that connects the immediate past to the imminent future is an idea with merit.  It creates an apparent, or seeming, feeling of 'now'.  It is an illusion created by minds. If we try to measure the duration of the present moment, we can only conclude that is must be of zero duration and therefore does not actually exist.  So, our minds create a feeling of a continuous rolling present.

None of this helps your core problem though, that if all influences that guide choice were removed we are left definitionally with a random event rather than a choice, so the way that choice is resolved has to be through a process of weighing rival influences against each other to identify the dominant influence.  Merely observing that we make choices 'in the present' says nothing useful at all about how choice is resolved.
Happy New Year to you Torri

I think we take much for granted when considering the concept of "present".

The present does not exist in any machine or material entity.  The present can only exist in the conscious awareness of an external observer to material entities.  It is not a material property.  I put it to you that there is no present outside our conscious awareness.
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Truth is not an abstraction, but a person - Edith Stein
Free will, though it makes evil possible, is also the only thing that makes possible any love or goodness or joy worth having. - CS Lewis
Joy is the Gigantic Secret of Christians - GK Chesterton

Stranger

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #38114 on: January 11, 2020, 05:46:10 PM »
The present is simply where our conscious awareness exists.

The present can only exist in the conscious awareness...

No circularity involved...

Are you even serious? Is this a joke?
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torridon

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #38115 on: January 12, 2020, 08:55:11 AM »
Happy New Year to you Torri

I think we take much for granted when considering the concept of "present".

The present does not exist in any machine or material entity.  The present can only exist in the conscious awareness of an external observer to material entities.  It is not a material property.  I put it to you that there is no present outside our conscious awareness.

In the same sense, thirstiness, or tiredness, or happiness do not exist outside conscious awareness.  The feeling of 'now', of being in real time, living the present moment is a feeling and we can only experience feelings whilst conscious.  This doesn't mean that consciousness somehow transcends the laws of physics or logic, rather that our minds construct sensory experience and we live our lives within that construction; it acts as a proxy substitute for reality.
« Last Edit: January 12, 2020, 09:04:52 AM by torridon »

SusanDoris

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #38116 on: January 12, 2020, 09:26:46 AM »
In the same sense, thirstiness, or tiredness, or happiness do not exist outside conscious awareness.  The feeling of 'now', of being in real time, living the present moment is a feeling and we can only experience feelings whilst conscious.  This doesn't mean that consciousness somehow transcends the laws of physics or logic, rather that our minds construct sensory experience and we live our lives within that construction; it acts as a proxy substitute for reality.
Very sad to say, but AB will just never get it.
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Alan Burns

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #38117 on: January 12, 2020, 10:17:48 AM »

False dichotomy again - and you are yet again confusing the "how" question with the "what". You need to define how a choice is made if it isn't entirely defined by its antecedents. Saying it's "defined by you" just evasion. And you're once again misrepresenting the logic that is against you by linking it to the physical. Why can't you at least have the honesty to stop doing that?

We can't change reality just because our human minds can't understand how it works.  My conscious freedom to choose is a reality which defines me and what I do.  You claim that it is a logical impossibility, but that is because you do not understand how it can work within your limited knowledge.  Niether do I know how it works, but I accept is as a reality beyond my understanding.  My freedom to consciously contemplate this reality is demonstrably real.  It demonstrates the reality of of this amazing gift which nature alone can never give.
The truth will set you free  - John 8:32
Truth is not an abstraction, but a person - Edith Stein
Free will, though it makes evil possible, is also the only thing that makes possible any love or goodness or joy worth having. - CS Lewis
Joy is the Gigantic Secret of Christians - GK Chesterton

torridon

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #38118 on: January 12, 2020, 10:36:39 AM »
We can't change reality just because our human minds can't understand how it works.  My conscious freedom to choose is a reality which defines me and what I do.  You claim that it is a logical impossibility, but that is because you do not understand how it can work within your limited knowledge.  Niether do I know how it works, but I accept is as a reality beyond my understanding.  My freedom to consciously contemplate this reality is demonstrably real.  It demonstrates the reality of of this amazing gift which nature alone can never give.

It isn't a 'reality' that we can choose in a way that is free of determinants without being random.  That is just your claim.  It is not a reality for me, I don't recognise it.  My reality is that I make choices for a reason. Period.

ippy

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #38119 on: January 12, 2020, 10:45:28 AM »
We can't change reality just because our human minds can't understand how it works.  My conscious freedom to choose is a reality which defines me and what I do.  You claim that it is a logical impossibility, but that is because you do not understand how it can work within your limited knowledge.  Niether do I know how it works, but I accept is as a reality beyond my understanding.  My freedom to consciously contemplate this reality is demonstrably real.  It demonstrates the reality of of this amazing gift which nature alone can never give.

I take it Alan  that you know about the myth of how the Dodo is supposed to have disappeared? Must be a worry for you?

Commiserations to you Alan, ippy.

Stranger

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #38120 on: January 12, 2020, 11:06:11 AM »
We can't change reality just because our human minds can't understand how it works.  My conscious freedom to choose is a reality which defines me and what I do.  You claim that it is a logical impossibility, but that is because you do not understand how it can work within your limited knowledge.  Niether do I know how it works, but I accept is as a reality beyond my understanding.  My freedom to consciously contemplate this reality is demonstrably real.  It demonstrates the reality of of this amazing gift which nature alone can never give.

The problem is that you keep on equating the reality of our "freedom to consciously contemplate" with your absurd claims about it. What you have totally failed to do is provide any logical link at all between our human abilities to think and act and your claim that our choices are not fully deterministic but involve no randomness.

I do not experience making choices in that way, in fact it doesn't even make any sense, so I can't even imagine making choices that way.

Nobody is denying any reality here, except for you.
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Gordon

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #38121 on: January 12, 2020, 11:42:25 AM »
We can't change reality just because our human minds can't understand how it works.

That makes no sense whatsoever: if we acknowledge reality isn't, or perhaps can't, ever be fully understood by human minds then there is no point in thinking it can be changed, and nobody here does - at best it can be better understood, and there is always the risk of unknowns that may limit our understanding. However, that isn't a free pass to then conclude that if reality isn't fully understood then anything is possible: enough of reality is understood to make reasonable assumptions and logic can't be subverted simply because it is inconvenient, and it is here that you fall hardest.

Quote
My conscious freedom to choose is a reality which defines me and what I do.

It is your feelings about conscious freedom that define you, Alan: that much is true.

Quote
You claim that it is a logical impossibility, but that is because you do not understand how it can work within your limited knowledge.  Niether do I know how it works, but I accept is as a reality beyond my understanding.  My freedom to consciously contemplate this reality is demonstrably real.  It demonstrates the reality of of this amazing gift which nature alone can never give.

You patently avoid logic, Alan, and the determinism vs random will always been an obstacle to you ever being taken seriously by anyone not prone to your fallacious reasoning - as you do here in accepting "a reality beyond my understanding" that is an "amazing gift which nature alone can never give": this is just your trademark personal incredulity getting in your way again.

Enki

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #38122 on: January 12, 2020, 11:59:52 AM »
We can't change reality just because our human minds can't understand how it works.  My conscious freedom to choose is a reality which defines me and what I do.  You claim that it is a logical impossibility, but that is because you do not understand how it can work within your limited knowledge.  Niether do I know how it works, but I accept is as a reality beyond my understanding.  My freedom to consciously contemplate this reality is demonstrably real.  It demonstrates the reality of of this amazing gift which nature alone can never give.

The definition of 'reality' is 'the state of things as they actually exist, as opposed to an idealistic or notional idea of them.'

My idea of 'reality' is very different to yours. I base mine upon as much evidence and logic as I can assimilate, and as this is contrary to what you think, I feel that it is your idea of reality which is essentially idealistic. I suggest that is where the basis of our differences occur. Therefore I too suggest that I have the freedom to choose, (whether it be conscious or unconscious) but what I mean by it seems to be a world away from your ideas.

I am quite happy to accept that you feel as you do but I genuinely can't see how a meeting of minds can occur here. if you look at the exchanges in the last few years, you have accomplished very little(and I believe I am being kind here) in convincing anyone of the validity of your point of view. All that seems to happen is that you endlessly keep repeating your view as a series of assertions which many here find to be totally unconvincing. Maybe, by doing this, you get some sort of enjoyment in continually failing, I don't know!
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Alan Burns

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #38123 on: January 12, 2020, 05:27:33 PM »
It isn't a 'reality' that we can choose in a way that is free of determinants without being random.  That is just your claim.  It is not a reality for me, I don't recognise it.  My reality is that I make choices for a reason. Period.
Of course our choices are not free of determinants.
You continue to ignore the nature and power of the main determinant which is our conscious will.
We are consciously aware of our possible choices, and the reasons behind them, but our conscious awareness allows us the freedom to choose from our choices and reasons.  Your reasoning allows no possible choice, just inevitable uncontrollable reaction to past events, but this is not the reality I live in.

The truth will set you free  - John 8:32
Truth is not an abstraction, but a person - Edith Stein
Free will, though it makes evil possible, is also the only thing that makes possible any love or goodness or joy worth having. - CS Lewis
Joy is the Gigantic Secret of Christians - GK Chesterton

torridon

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #38124 on: January 12, 2020, 06:03:46 PM »
Of course our choices are not free of determinants.
You continue to ignore the nature and power of the main determinant which is our conscious will.
We are consciously aware of our possible choices, and the reasons behind them, but our conscious awareness allows us the freedom to choose from our choices and reasons.  Your reasoning allows no possible choice, just inevitable uncontrollable reaction to past events, but this is not the reality I live in.

As usual, you aren't venturing in to the question of how you resolve a choice, just skipping over it.  Merely observing that you do it 'consciously' says nothing of any use. Merely observing that you do it 'in the present' offers no real insight. If your wife asks why you chose the beer rather than the wine, would you reply, 'because I chose it consciously', or  'because I was free to choose the beer'?  That is about the limit of your engagement with others on this thread.  It is discourteous to be so persistently evasive. There must be some determinant causing you to choose beer not wine, if that were not the case then you are just making some random choice on no basis, and no, the determinant is not 'being free' and it is not 'being conscious'.  The determination of your choice arises out of weighing against each other of rival options to identify the option with most appeal.  This strategy clearly could not work in a world where people were 'free' to choose our emotional responses to the world.  Your strategy of burying this simple truth under some or other blather about 'uncontrollable', or 'material' reactions is just cover for a policy of willful ignorance.