Searching for GOD...

[bluehillside Retd.]

AB,

PS Remember how a few posts ago you asked a question and I answered it? How about returning the favour and answering mine as a quid pro quo?

So, what is your top, knock ‘em dead, unequivocal, no possible counter-argument, slam dunk argument for “god” being anything other than just a personal faith belief you happen to have then?

Go for it!

[Alan Burns]

AB,

PS Remember how a few posts ago you asked a question and I answered it? How about returning the favour and answering mine as a quid pro quo?

So, what is your top, knock ‘em dead, unequivocal, no possible counter-argument, slam dunk argument for “god” being anything other than just a personal faith belief you happen to have then?

Go for it!

I can only answer this from my own perception of reality.  I have already listed reasons why I can't believe in anything else other than the God I know and love, and who I know loves me and all His creation.  I will continue to witness to what I perceive to be the truth, because this is what God calls me and other fellow Christians to do.  But I also know that I am in competition with the powerful forces of evil which are intent on separating us from God's love,  I only wish that the veil of deception could be destroyed in order for us all to share in the joy of knowing the one true God.

[Gordon]

I can only answer this from my own perception of reality.

Have you considered that you might be wrong?

I have already listed reasons why I can't believe in anything else other than the God I know and love, and who I know loves me and all His creation.

Yet these reasons don't stand scrutiny, Alan: all those fallacies you so love actually torpedo what you believe.

I will continue to witness to what I perceive to be the truth, because this is what God calls me and other fellow Christians to do.

No doubt you will, and that is quite sad.

But I also know that I am in competition with the powerful forces of evil which are intent on separating us from God's love,  I only wish that the veil of deception could be destroyed in order for us all to share in the joy of knowing the one true God.

More theobabble: and no thanks, from what I've seen I don't want whatever it is you've caught.

[bluehillside Retd.]

AB,

I can only answer this from my own perception of reality.

Well thanks for trying, but your problem here if you want to evangelise is finding a bridge from “my own perception” to anyone else’s perception. My own perception might be that there are fairies at the end of the garden but that provides no reason at all for you to agree with me.
 

I have already listed reasons why I can't believe in anything else other than the God I know and love,…

All of which were entirely subjective and personal to you. Some of us might think too by the way that, even if we shared a strong belief about something, we’d be more than concerned that we had no good reasons to justify that belief as objectively true even to ourselves, but that doesn’t trouble you at all I guess.

… and who I know loves me and all His creation.

No, you don’t know that at all – you just believe it as an article of personal faith. To know something you need to have a reason to justify the belief as true, which is where you run out of answers. 

I will continue to witness to what I perceive to be the truth,…

“Assert” rather than “witness”, and it’s important that you keep that “what I perceive to be” in there as a reminder to others that you have no reasons at all for them to think you’re right about that.   

…because this is what God calls me and other fellow Christians to do.

You’re overreaching again – see above. You believe it, but you don’t know it.   

But I also know that I am in competition with the powerful forces of evil which are intent on separating us from God's love,  I only wish that the veil of deception could be destroyed in order for us all to share in the joy of knowing the one true God.

And now you’ve gone overboard into la-la land. There are no “forces of evil” – that’s just a hangover from the medieval habit of assigning agency to inanimate objects and forces. People using reason and logic to falsify your claims doesn’t mean that that they’re satan’s little helpers – it just means that, unless you come up with counter-arguments of your own, your reasons for believing what you belief are all false, no matter how sincere you are.

You'd have been better advised by the way just to have said, "no, I don't have any good reasons for you to agree with me" and left it at that.

[Stranger]

I will continue to witness to what I perceive to be the truth, because this is what God calls me and other fellow Christians to do.

All you are actually witnessing to here is your own complete inability to give any rational or objective basis for your beliefs coupled with an arrogant or complacent attitude that means that you don't even engage with what other people say in response.

As I said - ignorance (of logic, reasoning, and evidence) coupled with arrogance or complacency is not a good way to convince people of your point of view.

But I also know that I am in competition with the powerful forces of evil which are intent on separating us from God's love,  I only wish that the veil of deception could be destroyed in order for us all to share in the joy of knowing the one true God.

And here we have yet another blatant contradiction. If (as you seem to believe) this god of yours has an important message for us, that could seriously affect us all, we are bound to ask why it allows these supposed "forces of evil" to hide it (not to mention allows people like you to post such off-putting nonsense). Is it unable to deliver its message clearly to all? If so, how can it be omnipotent? Is it unwilling? If so, how can it be good and not perverse and evil?

[torridon]

I can only answer this from my own perception of reality.  I have already listed reasons why I can't believe in anything else other than the God I know and love, and who I know loves me and all His creation.  I will continue to witness to what I perceive to be the truth, because this is what God calls me and other fellow Christians to do.  But I also know that I am in competition with the powerful forces of evil which are intent on separating us from God's love,  I only wish that the veil of deception could be destroyed in order for us all to share in the joy of knowing the one true God.

So if God does not destroy the forces of evil and vanquish those veils of deception, it can only be either that he cannot, or that he does not wish to.  Neither of these possibilities is consistent with the notion of a loving God.  See, right from the start, your conceptualisation around God is just as fatally flawed (ie wrong) as your contradictory claims around free will.  it seems to me that to get into bed with God first requires one to get out of bed with logic.  Clear headed thinking is sacrificed for the sugar rush and comfort of delusion.

[ippy]

Have you considered that you might be wrong?

Yet these reasons don't stand scrutiny, Alan: all those fallacies you so love actually torpedo what you believe.

No doubt you will, and that is quite sad.

More theobabble: and no thanks, from what I've seen I don't want whatever it is you've caught.

Ah yes theobable that word again it should already be included in the O E D.

When these religions set out their various claims none of them miss out recruitment as a part of their mantra or

On a scale of one to ten one meaning the least indoctrinated, still able to be rational, to ten completely taken in lock stock and barrel?

ippy

[Alan Burns]

No doubt you will, and that is quite sad.

The real sadness is that many on this forum, and probably throughout the whole world, are in denial of the amazing gift of human free will.  It is a power which admittedly is beyond human understanding, but this does not mean it is not real.  We all have the conscious power to choose what we do with our precious gift of life.  The choices we make will determine our ultimate destiny.

[Nearly Sane]

The real sadness is that many on this forum, and probably throughout the whole world, are in denial of the amazing gift of human free will.  It is a power which admittedly is beyond human understanding, but this does not mean it is not real.  We all have the conscious power to choose what we do with our precious gift of life.  The choices we make will determine our ultimate destiny.

Back at your old trope of implying that people are somehow lying.

[Alan Burns]

Back at your old trope of implying that people are somehow lying.

Not lying - just deluded

[bluehillside Retd.]

AB,

The real sadness is that many on this forum, and probably throughout the whole world, are in denial of the amazing gift of human free will.  It is a power which admittedly is beyond human understanding, but this does not mean it is not real.  We all have the conscious power to choose what we do with our precious gift of life.  The choices we make will determine our ultimate destiny.

No Alan – not “real “, just “real to me” remember? To get from subjective “real to me” (ie, belief) to objective “real” (ie, knowledge) you need sound reasoning to justify the claim. And we’ve already established that you have no such reasoning.

[Outrider]

The real sadness is that many on this forum, and probably throughout the whole world, are in denial of the amazing gift of human free will.

I could just as easily point out how sad it is that people need to cling to the idea that they have some sort of cosmic significance, and can't simply be content with the wondrous life we have as a self-aware fragment of reality exploring itself and its surroundings, but that would be ever so slightly patronising, don't you think?

It is a power which admittedly is beyond human understanding, but this does not mean it is not real.

That it might be beyond your willingness to understand - you aren't stupid, that's apparent, so your apparent incapability to accept the possibility that consciousness might have an entirely natural origin can only be put down to a reluctance - does mean that it's beyond human understanding.  You're entirely correct, and I'm not sure anyone has suggested that things we can't explain are therefore not real?

We all have the conscious power to choose what we do with our precious gift of life.

Just after our subconscious has made the decision for us, absolutely...

The choices we make will determine our ultimate destiny.

They absolutely will.  Now, if only we could establish that we had the capability to make choices other than those we ultimately do...

O.

[Nearly Sane]

Not lying - just deluded

So if your god punishes deluded people, you worship a thug.

[Stranger]

The real sadness is that many on this forum, and probably throughout the whole world, are in denial of the amazing gift of human free will.  It is a power which admittedly is beyond human understanding, but this does not mean it is not real.  We all have the conscious power to choose what we do with our precious gift of life.  The choices we make will determine our ultimate destiny.

So back to totally ignoring reason, logic, and evidence and just asserting self-contradictory, impossible fantasies. Ho hum.

[ippy]

The real sadness is that many on this forum, and probably throughout the whole world, are in denial of the amazing gift of human free will.  It is a power which admittedly is beyond human understanding, but this does not mean it is not real.  We all have the conscious power to choose what we do with our precious gift of life.  The choices we make will determine our ultimate destiny.

In denial of your god idea? Why would anyone be in denial of something/anything that there is no substantive evidence for?

Commiserations Alan.

[SusanDoris]

In denial of your god idea? Why would anyone be in denial of something/anything that there is no substantive evidence for?

Commiserations Alan.

Well, I think you are very generous even to consider commiserations! I cringe at every one of AB's posts and shake my head in disbelief that anyone can continue to hide behind such a jjust about impenetrable barrier of theo-babblingly cloying smugness and  drivel. 

I do, however, support and cheer from the sidelines the strong, well-structured posts by the rational thinkers hereabouts.

[torridon]

Not lying - just deluded

You got that the wrong way round. Delusion is a persistent belief in something without evidence. Such as, for instance, belief in God, belief in free will.  Atheism is a lack of a belief, so could not qualify as a delusion.

[Alan Burns]

I do, however, support and cheer from the sidelines the strong, well-structured posts by the rational thinkers hereabouts.

Such rational thinkers provide ample evidence that their thought processing must be driven and validated by their conscious will in order for it to be viable.  If such thought processing was somehow achieved by predetermined subconscious brain reactions how can it even be considered as a valid theoretical postulation?  The well structured, rationally thought out posts are themselves evidence of the conscious freedom needed to produce such output.

[Nearly Sane]

Such rational thinkers provide ample evidence that their thought processing must be driven and validated by their conscious will in order for it to be viable.  If such thought processing was somehow achieved by predetermined subconscious brain reactions how can it even be considered as a valid theoretical postulation?  The well structured, rationally thought out posts are themselves evidence of the conscious freedom needed to produce such output.

Drivel from a thug worshipper

[Gordon]

Such rational thinkers provide ample evidence that their thought processing must be driven and validated by their conscious will in order for it to be viable.  If such thought processing was somehow achieved by predetermined subconscious brain reactions how can it even be considered as a valid theoretical postulation?  The well structured, rationally thought out posts are themselves evidence of the conscious freedom needed to produce such output.

Ignorance and incredulity combine in the above to provide a stunning example of how religion, or rather your bespoke version of it, can in individual cases reduce otherwise intelligent people, such as yourself, to intellectual idiocy whenever 'God' is considered: well done you!

[Stranger]

Such rational thinkers provide ample evidence that their thought processing must be driven and validated by their conscious will in order for it to be viable.

Baseless assertion. How do they provide such evidence and where is the reasoning that links our abilities (that nobody disputes) to your contradictory assertions about how they work?

If such thought processing was somehow achieved by predetermined subconscious brain reactions how can it even be considered as a valid theoretical postulation?

Why not?

The well structured, rationally thought out posts are themselves evidence of the conscious freedom needed to produce such output.

Baseless assertion. How do they provide such evidence and where is the reasoning that links our abilities (that nobody disputes) to your contradictory assertions about how they work?

Once again you've gone back to mindless repetition of your idiotic script that has been torn to shreds endless time on this thread. What do you think you'll achieve by posting as if you were a mindless automaton who is incapable of engaging with logic and reasoning?

I just don't get it. You are clearly capable of reasoning and rational thought, yet you totally refuse to engage that ability in this discussion, with the end result that you're presenting your faith as something that can only be accepted if you renounce rational thought.

Is that really your intention?

[bluehillside Retd.]

AB,

Such rational thinkers provide ample evidence that their thought processing must be driven and validated by their conscious will in order for it to be viable.  If such thought processing was somehow achieved by predetermined subconscious brain reactions how can it even be considered as a valid theoretical postulation?  The well structured, rationally thought out posts are themselves evidence of the conscious freedom needed to produce such output.

Why are you persisting with this nonsense? We’ve already established that your option of magic (or, as you call it, “miraculous”) is not even wrong and we’ve established too that you have no coherent argument at all that would validate your personal faith beliefs. Where this leaves you is with some convictions that no doubt make sense in your head, but that can safely be dismissed by those of us possessed of functioning intellects. Show me to be wrong and – finally – find a justification that isn’t manifestly wrong and there will be something to talk about. Until then though you’re just wasting everyone’s time.

[Outrider]

Such rational thinkers provide ample evidence that their thought processing must be driven and validated by their conscious will in order for it to be viable.

On the contrary, the very 'rationality' comes from the flow of premise to inevitable consequence, which becomes the next premise.  It's rational because of the way it mirrors determinism, otherwise it would be, for want of a better word, 'inspired'.  The problem with 'inspiration' is that it can motivate, but it can't justify - you can be moved to do something by inspiration, but if it gets to court your defence is going to be 'I felt like it'...

If such thought processing was somehow achieved by predetermined subconscious brain reactions how can it even be considered as a valid theoretical postulation?

Because the validity of the argument is independent of the cause, it's based purely on whether the conclusions follow from the premise.  If a computer follows a premise through logical processes to a conclusion the argument is valid, and no consciousness is required.

The well structured, rationally thought out posts are themselves evidence of the conscious freedom needed to produce such output.

I'm afraid I just don't see the intrinsic link, here.  An argument's validity comes from its own merits, not from who presents it, or any of their purported qualities.  The idea that anything that rational must be the product of free consciousness is just another argument from incredulity - you haven't shown that it must be, you've just expressed your disbelief that it could.

O.

[Alan Burns]

On the contrary, the very 'rationality' comes from the flow of premise to inevitable consequence, which becomes the next premise.  It's rational because of the way it mirrors determinism, otherwise it would be, for want of a better word, 'inspired'.  The problem with 'inspiration' is that it can motivate, but it can't justify - you can be moved to do something by inspiration, but if it gets to court your defence is going to be 'I felt like it'...

Because the validity of the argument is independent of the cause, it's based purely on whether the conclusions follow from the premise.  If a computer follows a premise through logical processes to a conclusion the argument is valid, and no consciousness is required.

I'm afraid I just don't see the intrinsic link, here.  An argument's validity comes from its own merits, not from who presents it, or any of their purported qualities.  The idea that anything that rational must be the product of free consciousness is just another argument from incredulity - you haven't shown that it must be, you've just expressed your disbelief that it could.

O.

My consciously determined disbelief arises from trying to imagine how my subconscious brain activity can be engaging in a dispute with your subconscious brain activity.  The fact is that I do not see you as a lump of reconstituted star debris.  I see you as a fellow human being with a consciously controlled will of your own, arising from a God given soul which is the real you.

[bluehillside Retd.]

AB,

My consciously determined disbelief arises from trying to imagine how my subconscious brain activity can be engaging in a dispute with your subconscious brain activity.  The fact is that I do not see you as a lump of reconstituted star debris.  I see you as a fellow human being with a consciously controlled will of your own, arising from a God given soul which is the real you.

No doubt you do and, as I explained to you a while ago, that’s a personal belief to which you are every bit as entitled as I am to my personal belief that you’re a shape-shifting lizard alien from Alpha Centauri. We’re all entitled to whatever beliefs we prefer after all. Your problem though if you want to jump from belief to knowledge and to proselytise for it is that you have no cogent arguments to justify your beliefs.