Author Topic: Searching for GOD...  (Read 3867552 times)

Alan Burns

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #38450 on: February 12, 2020, 10:49:20 AM »
Is it possible for you to accept that other people might have a different idea on what the truth is?

Is it possible for you to accept that a neutral person has no way to tell whether your version of the truth is correct or somebody else's?
It is a fact that many highly intelligent human beings have come to many different conclusions about the origin and meanings behind our existence.

This demonstrates a human need to seek the truth about ourselves.  It also demonstrates that human endeavours alone are not capable of discerning such truth.  If the logic which leads to discovering this truth was as cut and dried as many purport it to be, why would so many brilliant minds come to so many differing conclusions?  The answer lies in one word - "freedom".  We all have the freedom to think beyond the constraints of cold scientific logic and into the realms of the supernatural, because such freedom to think is itself a supernatural phenomenon beyond human understanding.

For me, the life, death and resurrection of Jesus Christ explains more about the truth and meaning of our existence than human endeavours alone could ever achieve.  We all have freedom to seek reasons not to believe this, or we have freedom to seek reasons why we should believe this.  The choice is yours to make.  If you choose the latter, you may well be (in the words of CS Lewis) "surprised by Joy."
« Last Edit: February 12, 2020, 01:00:28 PM by Alan Burns »
The truth will set you free  - John 8:32
Truth is not an abstraction, but a person - Edith Stein
Free will, though it makes evil possible, is also the only thing that makes possible any love or goodness or joy worth having. - CS Lewis
Joy is the Gigantic Secret of Christians - GK Chesterton

Stranger

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #38451 on: February 12, 2020, 11:31:10 AM »
It is a fact that many highly intelligent human beings have come to many different conclusions about the origin and meanings behind our existence.

This demonstrates a human need to seek the truth about ourselves.

It demonstrates a human desire for answers and meaning that often goes way beyond what can actually be known from reasoning and evidence.

It also demonstrates that human endeavours alone are not capable of discerning such truth.

It demonstrates nothing of the sort. You are firstly assuming that there is a "truth" of the sort you propose and also that because there is no consensus at present, it is beyond human endeavours. You have justified neither assumption.

If the logic which leads to discovering this truth was as cut and dried as many purport it to be, why would so many brilliant minds come to so many differing conclusions?

Are you talking about yourself? Do you need reminding that it is you who have been insisting that there is logic and evidence to support your views (despite never being able to actually produce any of either)? I don't think anybody else has been putting forward some ultimate truth "about the origin and meanings behind our existence" - just pointing to the obvious flaws in your ideas.

The answer lies in one word - "freedom".  We all have the freedom to think beyond the constraints of cold scientific logic and into the realms of the supernatural...

Again, it is you who have been claiming logic and others that have been pointing out the flaws. As for the rest, yes, people have the imagination to make up all sorts of totally unsupported nonsense like the "supernatural". The real question is what has any basis in logic or evidence and if we "go beyond" them, what possible criteria can we use to assess the probable truth of any proposition?

...because such freedom to think is itself a supernatural phenomenon beyond human understanding.

You have provided exactly nothing in terms of logic or evidence to support this ridiculous assertion.

For me, the life, death and resurrection of Jesus Christ explains more about the truth and meaning of our existence than human endeavours alone could ever achieve.

Shame you can't explain why. For me, the story is utterly nonsensical and portrays your god as a bloodthirsty, unjust, and unfair monster.

We all have freedom to choose reasons not to believe this...

Honestly Alan, why is it that you go on repeating your silly script even after the points have been addressed countless times here? It makes you look like an idiot.

Nobody needs a reason to not believe something - it's up to those proposing it to justify their claims. Something you have spectacularly failed to do. In fact, if anybody thought they needed a reason to not believe, there is ample evidence in your posts that the faith you hold is illogical, contradictory, and requires its followers to abandon reasoning and logic.

...or we have freedom to choose reasons why we should believe this.  The choice is yours to make.

There you go again. As has been pointed out many, many times, people cannot choose to believe something they find utterly unconvincing. It really isn't a choice.
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Outrider

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #38452 on: February 12, 2020, 12:15:25 PM »
It is a fact that many highly intelligent human beings have come to many different conclusions about the origin and meanings behind our existence.

It's slightly camouflaged, but that's just a variant on the argument from authority - intelligent people are also capable of being wrong, and the strength of any argument lies within the argument, not whomever presents or accepts it.

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This demonstrates a human need to seek the truth about ourselves.

It doesn't at all - it might be indicative of a tendency, although arguably by restricting the group to 'intelligent' people it actually only tells us about the tendency amongst that group.

 
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It also demonstrates that human endeavours alone are not capable of discerning such truth.

Again, no it doesn't - you're presumption is that all of those various opinions and arguments are of equal merit, and that's certainly not a proven fact.

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If the logic which leads to discovering this truth was as cut and dried as many purport it to be, why would so many brilliant minds come to so many differing conclusions?

Let me count the ways - childhood indoctrination, political and social pressures, psychological flaws.  You're presuming all these arguments are logical, and that's also not proven.

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The answer lies in one word - "freedom".

From logic, perhaps, from sound argument perhaps, but not from causal constraints.

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We all have the freedom to think beyond the constraints of cold scientific logic and into the realms of the supernatural, because such freedom to think is itself a supernatural phenomenon beyond human understanding.

Or, more succinctly, we all have the capacity to be wrong.

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For me, the life, death and resurrection of Jesus Christ explains more about the truth and meaning of our existence than human endeavours alone could ever achieve

One unevidenced claim really isn't sufficient grounds for another unevidenced claim.

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We all have freedom to choose reasons not to believe this, or we have freedom to choose reasons why we should believe this.

Notwithstanding that you can't 'choose' what to believe, your belief in something is a poor indicator of the validity of the claim.  Your believing it doesn't make it right or true.

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The choice is yours to make.  If you choose the latter, you may well be (in the words of CS Lewis) "surprised by Joy."

No, the choice is not anyone's to make.  We don't 'choose' what to believe, what we believe is a subconscious process.

O.
Universes are forever, not just for creation...

New Atheism - because, apparently, there's a use-by date on unanswered questions.

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Enki

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #38453 on: February 12, 2020, 12:23:43 PM »
Alan,

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It is a fact that many highly intelligent human beings have come to many different conclusions about the origin and meanings behind our existence.

This demonstrates a human need to seek the truth about ourselves.

1)Plenty of people, whether highly intelligent or not, have had all sorts of explanations as to the meaning of our existence or even if there is any meaning at all.
2)On the other hand there is a wealth of evidence as to our origins, which isn't complete, of course, but points clearly to its evolutionary roots.
3)The 'human need' as you call it seems to be a result of our innate curiosity combined with the complexity of our self awareness, and, as physical survival took less of our time, we became increasingly absorbed by such motivations.

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It also demonstrates that human endeavours alone are not capable of discerning such truth.

Quite right. We observe the whole of the natural world and its doings in order to produce our conjectures, hypotheses and theories, most of which are not solely due to human endeavours at all. If, on the other hand, you mean there is some sort of supernatural agency that needs to be involved then I see not the slightest evidence that any such exists. Whatever truths we distill, at best can only be called relative truths.

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If the logic which leads to discovering this truth was as cut and dried as many purport it to be, why would so many brilliant minds come to so many differing conclusions?

These 'truths' are not only the result of logic and deduction though, they are the result of inductive scientific evidence and observation. Logic is based upon premises. Logic is not the problem, but the premises may be. Hence, if one was to say  'All humans have three eyes and Bob is a human therefore Bob has three eyes' then the logic is not in doubt, but, on the other hand, the premise is faulty.

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The answer lies in one word - "freedom".  We all have the freedom to think beyond the constraints of cold scientific logic and into the realms of the supernatural, because such freedom to think is itself a supernatural phenomenon beyond human understanding.

Of course we all have the freedom to think, given that we have no outside constraints, as you have been told many times. We can all think in different ways, whether it be observational, scientific(cold or warm), logical, fanciful, rational. Often these are combined in our unconscious in producing our thoughts on all sorts of subjects. Not one of these is 'beyond' the others, as you disparagingly seem to suggest. Also plenty of scientists have thought about and examined ideas of the supernatural. One person that comes immediately to mind is Dr Chris French, a British psychologist who has investigated the paranormal in some detail.

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For me, the life, death and resurrection of Jesus Christ explains more about the truth and meaning of our existence than human endeavours alone could ever achieve.  We all have freedom to choose reasons not to believe this, or we have freedom to choose reasons why we should believe this.  The choice is yours to make.  If you choose the latter, you may well be (in the words of CS Lewis) "surprised by Joy."

I have no issue at all with your personal belief, Alan, which is what you are simply stating here. Obviously I don't find it convincing. but, as you say, we all have the freedom to choose. I often take issue with your proselytising style and intent though, as I find it rather arrogant, disrespectful and ultimately rather demeaning of yourself. As regards your last sentence, I can only say to you that I occasionally have had a sense of exhilaration that I am not bound by the constraints I see that at least some Christians impose upon themselves(E.g. in an Alpha Course that I once attended).
 
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Gordon

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #38454 on: February 12, 2020, 12:29:13 PM »
It is a fact that many highly intelligent human beings have come to many different conclusions about the origin and meanings behind our existence.

It is also a fact that many highly intelligent human beings have made mistakes or are gullible in some respects: so what.

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This demonstrates a human need to seek the truth about ourselves.

Leaving aside that this 'truth' sounds like yet more reification, that our species are curious isn't that much of a surprise. There is a difference though between being curious and developing sound methods of investigating whatever it is we are curious about.

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It also demonstrates that human endeavours alone are not capable of discerning such truth.

Maybe not, but that doesn't open the door to making stuff up to fill gaps (real or imagined).

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If the logic which leads to discovering this truth was as cut and dried as many purport it to be, why would so many brilliant minds come to so many differing conclusions?

You seem to be confusing logic with methods of investigation, and of course 'brilliant minds' can make mistakes or can be constrained by the methods available to them.

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The answer lies in one word - "freedom".  We all have the freedom to think beyond the constraints of cold scientific logic and into the realms of the supernatural, because such freedom to think is itself a supernatural phenomenon beyond human understanding.

Nope - this is your usual descent into fallacious theobabble.

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For me, the life, death and resurrection of Jesus Christ explains more about the truth and meaning of our existence than human endeavours alone could ever achieve.

It may work for you, Alan, but you can't show, and I've asked you often enough, that this particular ancient religious superstition (and leaving to one side the fantastical elements) doesn't involve mistakes and lies. To think that 'true for me' implies 'therefore true for everyone' is yet another fallacy you regularly fall into.

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We all have freedom to choose reasons not to believe this, or we have freedom to choose reasons why we should believe this.  The choice is yours to make.  If you choose the latter, you may well be (in the words of CS Lewis) "surprised by Joy."

I'm not 'choosing not to believe this' at all - I'm simply rejecting Christianity on the basis that there are no good reasons to consider it a serious proposition in the first place, plus I'm not convinced that a certain literary apologist best known for producing twee fantasy is especially authoritative based on the likes of 'Man or Rabbit', that you regaled us with some time back.

Christine

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #38455 on: February 12, 2020, 12:39:26 PM »

Nobody needs a reason to not believe something - it's up to those proposing it to justify their claims. Something you have spectacularly failed to do. In fact, if anybody thought they needed a reason to not believe, there is ample evidence in your posts that the faith you hold is illogical, contradictory, and requires its followers to abandon reasoning and logic.


I couldn't agree more.

I haven't got anything useful to add to your and Outrider's posts, but I'd like to say I'm sick and tired of being told my lack of belief in the nonsense spouted by Christians is my fault.  That's what I find smug and inappropriately patronising, a comment Spud found "brutally nasty".  Luckily being accused of brutal nastiness hasn't bothered me that much...

Enki

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #38456 on: February 12, 2020, 12:41:52 PM »
Hi Gordon,

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I'm not 'choosing not to believe this' at all - I'm simply rejecting Christianity on the basis that there are no good reasons to consider it a serious proposition in the first place, plus I'm not convinced that a certain literary apologist best known for producing twee fantasy is especially authoritative based on the likes of 'Man or Rabbit', that you regaled us with some time back.

Further referenced by 'this certain literary apologist's' attitude to both homosexuals and women, which far from showing him as a particularly enlightened individual, simply showed him to be a 'child of his times'.
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torridon

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #38457 on: February 12, 2020, 02:22:02 PM »

This demonstrates a human need to seek the truth about ourselves.  It also demonstrates that human endeavours alone are not capable of discerning such truth.  If the logic which leads to discovering this truth was as cut and dried as many purport it to be, why would so many brilliant minds come to so many differing conclusions?  The answer lies in one word - "freedom".

Stop right there.  Our conclusions are not based on freedom, they are based on evidence.  I don't believe that squirrels bury nuts in the garden because I am free; I believe that because I have seen them doing it and read the reports of others seeing the same.  Freedom has no causal power, freedom merely circumscribes the possibility-space within which we all operate.  Why do people come to diverse conclusions ? Why do some kids grow up wanting to be a soldier whereas others want  to drive trains ? Why are there so many different species of life on this planet ?  If you want a single word summing it up, it is not 'freedom', but rather, 'diversity'.

bluehillside Retd.

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #38458 on: February 12, 2020, 05:25:28 PM »
AB,

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It is a fact that many highly intelligent human beings have come to many different conclusions about the origin and meanings behind our existence.

First, “origins” and “meanings” are two different things. The first concerns the “how” of the process that caused and led to our (and other species’) existence, and much of that ground is covered by abiogenesis and by evolutionary theory.   

The “meanings" part on the other hand is the “why”, and it relies on a priori assumptions about an intelligent something to decide on what that meaning would be. Absent those unqualified assumptions though, there’s no good reason to think there’s any meaning at all beyond the meanings we create for ourselves.

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This demonstrates a human need to seek the truth about ourselves.

Sort of – we’re a pattern- and explanation-seeking species, but ok…

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It also demonstrates that human endeavours alone are not capable of discerning such truth.

It absolutely demonstrates no such thing. Why on earth would you make that odd assertion?

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If the logic which leads to discovering this truth was as cut and dried as many purport it to be, why would so many brilliant minds come to so many differing conclusions?

Because much of the “logic” – ie, evolutionary theory in particular – has only been available for a relatively short time, whereas most of the differing conclusions you’re thinking of pre-dated that, and were generally attempts to fill the gaps in our knowledge with evidence-free assertions about various deities.     

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The answer lies in one word - "freedom".  We all have the freedom to think beyond the constraints of cold scientific logic and into the realms of the supernatural, because such freedom to think is itself a supernatural phenomenon beyond human understanding.

No it doesn’t. We can think about anything we like as alternatives to the reason- and evidence-based explanations we have, but all that thinking produces on its own is unsupported conjectures.   

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For me, the life, death and resurrection of Jesus Christ explains more about the truth and meaning of our existence than human endeavours alone could ever achieve.

No doubt that story has meaning for you. Lots of alternative folk myths have meanings for lots of people from different cultural backgrounds from your own too. So?

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We all have freedom to seek reasons not to believe this, or we have freedom to seek reasons why we should believe this.  The choice is yours to make.  If you choose the latter, you may well be (in the words of CS Lewis) "surprised by Joy."

Not until you (or anyone else) can provide reasons to justify your faith beliefs that aren’t flat wrong we won’t. That’s your problem remember? You have various beliefs as articles of faith, but the moment you try to justify them to others (and indeed to yourself) as well-founded you collapse in a welter of logical fallacies. Finally turn up with an argument to justify your beliefs that isn’t plainly wrong and then – but only then – will you have something to say that’s worth listening to. Good luck with it though.
« Last Edit: February 12, 2020, 05:50:43 PM by bluehillside Retd. »
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Alan Burns

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #38459 on: February 12, 2020, 06:35:38 PM »
Notwithstanding that you can't 'choose' what to believe, your belief in something is a poor indicator of the validity of the claim.  Your believing it doesn't make it right or true.

No, the choice is not anyone's to make.  We don't 'choose' what to believe, what we believe is a subconscious process.

O.
I did not claim that we could choose what to believe.
I said we are free to choose reasons for what to believe.

Perhaps I should have stated it more clearly as:
We are free to seek reasons to support what we want to believe, and we are also free to seek reasons to support what we do not wish to believe.

For example, I have offered reasons to support the spiritual nature of human beings as it being a necessity which enables us to consciously drive our thoughts and conscious choices.  Many have responded with reasons to dismiss this possibility based on the premiss of such consciously driven freedom being an illusion.

Sassy's opening post rightly observed that this forum shows evidence that many posters seek reasons not to believe in God.  I have offered some reasons to believe that there is more to reality than what can be determined from human scientific investigation of material behaviour.  People have responded by quoting reasons why everything can or will eventually be explained by science alone.

I have not dwelt much on reasons to consider the content of the New Testament as giving meaning and purpose to our existence.  Any mention of the Christian bible usually results in it being dismissed by such labels as fictitious, inconsistent, myth etc ...  But many people in modern times have discovered reasons to believe in the essential message of the NT.  Reasons such as the historic viability of the resurrection, the profound, world changing message of the Christian gospels, the miraculous conversion of Paul, the absurdity of the son of a Jewish carpenter - executed for blasphemy - with no written records of His own, becoming the most famous, influential individual who has ever lived.

No, we cannot choose what to believe, but we do have freedom to seek, to find, to discover.  We also have freedom to seek reasons to dismiss the possibility of God and of our spiritual nature.  Such conscious freedom which comes from the spiritual power of the human soul - not from the physically predetermined reactions in a material brain.
The truth will set you free  - John 8:32
Truth is not an abstraction, but a person - Edith Stein
Free will, though it makes evil possible, is also the only thing that makes possible any love or goodness or joy worth having. - CS Lewis
Joy is the Gigantic Secret of Christians - GK Chesterton

Gordon

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #38460 on: February 12, 2020, 07:12:33 PM »
I did not claim that we could choose what to believe.
I said we are free to choose reasons for what to believe.

Perhaps I should have stated it more clearly as:
We are free to seek reasons to support what we want to believe, and we are also free to seek reasons to support what we do not wish to believe.

Sounds like a straw man, Alan. I'm not looking for reasons not to believe what you believe - all I'm doing is rejecting what you believe because you offer no good reasons to take your beliefs seriously, and instead offer arguments that are incoherent and/or fallacious.

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For example, I have offered reasons to support the spiritual nature of human beings as it being a necessity which enables us to consciously drive our thoughts and conscious choices.  Many have responded with reasons to dismiss this possibility based on the premiss of such consciously driven freedom being an illusion.

I'd have thought it was more the case that you haven't offered a decent argument for this 'spiritual nature', and that the weaknesses of what you do argue are being exposed.

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Sassy's opening post rightly observed that this forum shows evidence that many posters seek reasons not to believe in God.

Sassy is wrong, rejecting reasons offered because they don't stand scrutiny is no more than a critique of sloppy thinking.

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I have offered some reasons to believe that there is more to reality than what can be determined from human scientific investigation of material behaviour.  People have responded by quoting reasons why everything can or will eventually be explained by science alone.

No they haven't - that science is the only currently reliable method of investigating stuff does not prevent you from proposing an alternative method that suits your supernatural claims - but you haven't. Proposing things such as 'souls' and then saying they are not amenable to the methods used by science gives you the responsibility of setting out what alternative methods are available.

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I have not dwelt much on reasons to consider the content of the New Testament as giving meaning and purpose to our existence.  Any mention of the Christian bible usually results in it being dismissed by such labels as fictitious, inconsistent, myth etc ...

The NT is not immune from human artifice no matter how sacrosanct it is to some - but unless you can exclude the risks of mistakes or lies then you'll need to accept that these risks apply, since to deny they do would be foolish.

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But many people in modern times have discovered reasons to believe in the essential message of the NT.  Reasons such as the historic viability of the resurrection, the profound, world changing message of the Christian gospels, the miraculous conversion of Paul, the absurdity of the son of a Jewish carpenter - executed for blasphemy - with no written records of His own, becoming the most famous, influential individual who has ever lived.

I get that the Jesus character has special meaning for you, and I recognise the role Christianity carved out for itself in terms of social and political influence over the centuries, albeit this is waning here in the UK, but the resurrection claim isn't history and your acknowledgement of 'no written records' should worry you greatly since this is where the risks I mentioned earlier apply. I'd also say you were exaggerating the value of the alleged 'message' in the NT, which is indistinguishable from fiction and of uncertain provenance, and hard to take seriously given the fantastical nature of some of the claims - it means nothing of note to me. 

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No, we cannot choose what to believe, but we do have freedom to seek, to find, to discover.  We also have freedom to seek reasons to dismiss the possibility of God and of our spiritual nature.  Such conscious freedom which comes from the spiritual power of the human soul - not from the physically predetermined reactions in a material brain.

Nope - unless and until you guys come up with an argument for 'God' that isn't fallacious or incoherent then it can be rejected out of hand.
« Last Edit: February 12, 2020, 08:01:35 PM by Gordon »

Stranger

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #38461 on: February 12, 2020, 07:47:01 PM »
I did not claim that we could choose what to believe.
I said we are free to choose reasons for what to believe.

Utter nonsense. We cannot choose what we find convincing, we cannot choose the reasons why we find things convincing. All we can possibly choose is whether or not to be open to being convinced - something you have repeatedly said is impossible in your case.

For example, I have offered reasons to support the spiritual nature of human beings as it being a necessity which enables us to consciously drive our thoughts and conscious choices.

No, you have not. Your have made some obviously flawed assertions about it and totally refused to engage with people who point out the problems and glaring contradictions.

Many have responded with reasons to dismiss this possibility based on the premiss of such consciously driven freedom being an illusion.

More dishonest misrepresentation. Your "arguments" do not stand up to any sort of serious scrutiny and you utterly refuse to even try to back them up when faced with solid counterarguments. Nobody (that I can recall) has used "consciously driven freedom being an illusion" as a premiss, it is rather you that try to use its supposed reality as a premiss - hence the silly insistence that people's posts are evidence for your contradictory claims about how "freedom" works.

Sassy's opening post rightly observed that this forum shows evidence that many posters seek reasons not to believe in God.

Drivel. You continue to try to blame others for the total lack of any evidence or reasoning displayed by yourself and other theists - it's seriously pathetic.

I have offered some reasons to believe that there is more to reality than what can be determined from human scientific investigation of material behaviour.

No, you have not. You have offered baseless assertion, blind faith, and fallacies.

People have responded by quoting reasons why everything can or will eventually be explained by science alone.

No, they have not. They have responded by pointing out the obvious flaws and contradictions in your claims and pointed you to the actual evidence.

No, we cannot choose what to believe, but we do have freedom to seek, to find, to discover.

A "freedom" you have repeatedly said that you no longer have because you imagine that you've found "the truth" and nothing can possibly change your mind.

Such conscious freedom which comes from the spiritual power of the human soul - not from the physically predetermined reactions in a material brain.

Back to the utterly absurd assertions, fallacies, dishonest misrepresentation, and contradictions. If you actually had the intellectual courage to stop mindlessly repeating this foolishness and engaged with the counterarguments, who knows, maybe you might actually convince somebody - but nobody is going to be convinced by your mindless repetition.
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bluehillside Retd.

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #38462 on: February 12, 2020, 09:49:37 PM »
AB,

Dear god man – stop! Seriously, just stop. You make mistake after error after howler and yet seem entirely oblivious to the damage you’re doing to the likelihood of anyone with a functioning intellect agreeing to whatever assertion you’re claiming.

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I did not claim that we could choose what to believe.
I said we are free to choose reasons for what to believe.

Yes, we are “free” at an experiential level, just as we are free to choose either tea or coffee. We cannot though be free at a deeper, explanatory level in the sense you intend it of floating untethered from causes because that’s logically impossible Will this ever sink in?
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Perhaps I should have stated it more clearly as:
We are free to seek reasons to support what we want to believe, and we are also free to seek reasons to support what we do not wish to believe.

Oh dear god. See above…

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For example, I have offered reasons to support the spiritual nature of human beings as it being a necessity which enables us to consciously drive our thoughts and conscious choices.

No, you have “offered” only logical fallacies to justify your claims and assertions about that. That’s your basic problem remember?

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Many have responded with reasons to dismiss this possibility based on the premiss of such consciously driven freedom being an illusion.

It’s “premise”, and it’s not an “illusion” at an experiential level of abstraction, but it is a mistake at an explanatory level.

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Sassy's opening post rightly observed that this forum shows evidence that many posters seek reasons not to believe in God.

No, the reasons “not to believe in God” are simply that – so far at least – all reasons given to justify that belief are wrong. They’re also wrong when used to justify the belief in leprechauns. That’s your problem – “God” and “leprechauns” are epistemically the same thing.   

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I have offered some reasons to believe that there is more to reality than what can be determined from human scientific investigation of material behaviour.

All of which have quickly been demolished as false, so…

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People have responded by quoting reasons why everything can or will eventually be explained by science alone.

No-one has said that. Why bother lying about it?

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I have not dwelt much on reasons to consider the content of the New Testament as giving meaning and purpose to our existence.  Any mention of the Christian bible usually results in it being dismissed by such labels as fictitious, inconsistent, myth etc ...  But many people in modern times have discovered reasons to believe in the essential message of the NT.  Reasons such as the historic viability of the resurrection, the profound, world changing message of the Christian gospels, the miraculous conversion of Paul, the absurdity of the son of a Jewish carpenter - executed for blasphemy - with no written records of His own, becoming the most famous, influential individual who has ever lived.

All of which are logical fallacies of various stripes. If you want to claim that the NT contains stories that are factually true, then you need much, much better reasons than that to justify the claim. 

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No, we cannot choose what to believe, but we do have freedom to seek, to find, to discover.  We also have freedom to seek reasons to dismiss the possibility of God and of our spiritual nature.

More lies. No-one dismisses the possibility of anything. What is dismissed though is the probability of those things when the reasons attempted to justify them are all wrong. Again, that’s your problem remember? 

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Such conscious freedom which comes from the spiritual power of the human soul - not from the physically predetermined reactions in a material brain.

And mindless drivel to conclude. When will you grasp that assuming the premise isn’t wrong – it’s not even wrong?
« Last Edit: February 12, 2020, 10:17:35 PM by bluehillside Retd. »
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torridon

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #38463 on: February 13, 2020, 06:54:17 AM »
I did not claim that we could choose what to believe.
I said we are free to choose reasons for what to believe.

Perhaps I should have stated it more clearly as:
We are free to seek reasons to support what we want to believe, and we are also free to seek reasons to support what we do not wish to believe.
..


I think this reads like some sort of eulogy to the virtue of confirmation bias and confirmation bias owes to an emotional attachment to a belief.  It is evident you have an emotional attachment to the idea of God, an irrational concept to start with in my eyes, and you seek supporting reasons to justify your belief in God, such as free will, which is just another irrational concept in my book.  This is the sort of mess you get into by allowing yourself to become emotionally engaged with ideas in the first place, propping up primary irrational ideas with yet more supporting irrational ideas.

Atheists are human and therefore subject to some measure of confirmation bias like everyone, but atheists don't hold beliefs about god in the first place that they need to justify.  We do not need to search for reasons to support something that isn't there in the first place.  Your post makes the age old mistake of eliding absence of belief with a positive disbelief.  People debunk your assertions not out of some emotional attachment to a disbelief, but simply because your claims make no sense and therefore can be challenged dispassionately on their own terms.
« Last Edit: February 13, 2020, 07:03:47 AM by torridon »

Outrider

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #38464 on: February 13, 2020, 07:08:54 AM »
I did not claim that we could choose what to believe. I said we are free to choose reasons for what to believe.

Fair point, of itself.  Do you not think, though, that reinforces the idea that our reasons to belief are post hoc rationalisations of prior subconscious behaviour?

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Perhaps I should have stated it more clearly as: We are free to seek reasons to support what we want to believe, and we are also free to seek reasons to support what we do not wish to believe.

In the interests of clarity - not that I find this one particularly an issue, but I know some do - there is no need for a reason not to believe.

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For example, I have offered reasons to support the spiritual nature of human beings as it being a necessity which enables us to consciously drive our thoughts and conscious choices.  Many have responded with reasons to dismiss this possibility based on the premise of such consciously driven freedom being an illusion.

To be fair you've claimed that we have such freedom, but not demonstrated that, and you've claimed that such freedom necessarily requires a spiritual dimension which you've neither demonstrated, adequately defined, shown is actually necessary or demonstrated is possible.

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Sassy's opening post rightly observed that this forum shows evidence that many posters seek reasons not to believe in God.

No, it doesn't.  There is no 'reason' not to believe, not believing is the default position. Until there's reason enough to believe, there is a lack of belief.  I lack a belief in God, and I make arguments not to show that there isn't a god (because I'm an agnostic, and I don't think that can be done) but rather to show why I'm not convinced by the arguments put forward for any particular god.

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I have offered some reasons to believe that there is more to reality than what can be determined from human scientific investigation of material behaviour.

Again, you've claimed that, but all of  your arguments seem to fall foul of the argument from incredulity - you don't show it can't be material behaviour, you assert that it can't be because you don't believe it's possible for something that complicated to emerge without direction.

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People have responded by quoting reasons why everything can or will eventually be explained by science alone.

They might have done, I've not interpreted any of the arguments quite like that, and I think if they're there it's a poor argument.  We can, at this point, no more state that everything will be explained by science than we can state that something is definitively existent but outside of science.  What we can say is that science is our most comprehensive and effective tool at the moment, that we have reason to presume that anything is outside of its remit and scope given enough time, and that if anyone wants to suggest that something falls outside of science then they need not just to explain what that is and why, but also what methodology is used to demonstrate that and why it should be considered reliable.

There may be things outside of sciences capacity to demonstrate that are real, but not only do we not have any reason currently to think so, we also don't have any other tools for demonstrating that it's so with any logical or practical validity.

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I have not dwelt much on reasons to consider the content of the New Testament as giving meaning and purpose to our existence.  Any mention of the Christian bible usually results in it being dismissed by such labels as fictitious, inconsistent, myth etc ...

That rather depends on the claim. If your argument is that are valuable lessons in the New Testament most people wouldn't argue, although they might point out that there are troubling messages as well.  If your claim is that a particular element of the New Testament (particularly some of the magical exploits) is an accurate history, then people start to take exception.

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But many people in modern times have discovered reasons to believe in the essential message of the NT.

Innumerable different denominations of Christianity can't come to an agreement about what the essential message of the New Testament is, which is further undermined when they attempt to reconcile that with the 'essential messages' of the Old Testamant which it claims to validate but which it profoundly contradicts in a number of significant ways.

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Reasons such as the historic viability of the resurrection, the profound, world changing message of the Christian gospels, the miraculous conversion of Paul, the absurdity of the son of a Jewish carpenter - executed for blasphemy - with no written records of His own, becoming the most famous, influential individual who has ever lived.

Oh boy.  The 'historic viability of the resurrection' is essentially zero.  The message of Christianity has had a profound influence on the world; but it could be argued at length that this is less about the intrinsic worth or merit of the argument, and more about the fact that it was predominant in Western culture, which politically and economically spread its influence (and Christianity's influence with it) across the world.  In particular, if you look at how much of the behaviour of Western culture meshed with 'the essential message of Christianity' during those times when it was being spread, if you look at how the  most fervent, devoted and aggressive exporters and proponents of Christianity in the modern world are divorced from what many would consider to be the 'essential message of Christianity' then you have to conclude that Christianity's ubiquity is a byproduct of Western culture's dominance on the world stage through the late middle ages and into the Enlightenment, and it's current decline is a result of modern, secular values realising its limitations.

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No, we cannot choose what to believe, but we do have freedom to seek, to find, to discover.

Yes, but we need to be mindful of our, possibly evolutionary, tendency towards type 1 errors; that is, of finding meaning in the random, of presuming intent where there is none.

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We also have freedom to seek reasons to dismiss the possibility of God and of our spiritual nature.

We do, but we don't need reasons in the absence of any substantial argument in favour.

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Such conscious freedom which comes from the spiritual power of the human soul - not from the physically predetermined reactions in a material brain.

He asserted...

O.
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SusanDoris

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #38465 on: February 13, 2020, 08:43:19 AM »
Ah, thank goodness that series of excellent posts was not followed by one of AB's !!
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bluehillside Retd.

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #38466 on: February 13, 2020, 11:52:26 AM »
Susan,

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Ah, thank goodness that series of excellent posts was not followed by one of AB's !!

I was just thinking, wouldn’t it be a breath of fresh air if AB were finally actually to engage with the arguments that undo him, and either to explain why the fallacies he tries aren’t fallacies after all, or to stop using them in any future posts?

Clearly the current tactic of just ignoring everything that falsifies him and repeating exactly the same mistake over and over again isn’t working, so if he does have an argument that isn’t a logical car crash you’d think he’d be only too keen to try it.

Oh well.
"Don't make me come down there."

God

Stranger

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #38467 on: February 13, 2020, 12:26:35 PM »
I was just thinking, wouldn’t it be a breath of fresh air if AB were finally actually to engage with the arguments that undo him, and either to explain why the fallacies he tries aren’t fallacies after all, or to stop using them in any future posts?

Indeed. However, it seems pretty obvious that he blundered into this whole "I've got a logical argument" nonsense without doing his homework and finding out how logical arguments are structured and what the potential problems are. You'd have thought some basic research would be an obvious necessity. If nothing else, he only needed to look at some of the traditional arguments for god (like first cause) to realise that logic involves premisses and a set of logical steps to the conclusion. But no, it looks like he just couldn't be bothered.

The trouble is that he's now published his nonsense and seems to be way too invested in it to take the necessary step back and re-evaluate it. It's incredible really that he seems to have as much blind faith in his "argument" as he does in his god, so he just repeats it endlessly and ignores all the objections - because, after all, his argument is perfect, so all the objections simply must be wrong...
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SusanDoris

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #38468 on: February 13, 2020, 01:44:31 PM »
Susan,

I was just thinking, wouldn’t it be a breath of fresh air if AB were finally actually to engage with the arguments that undo him, and either to explain why the fallacies he tries aren’t fallacies after all, or to stop using them in any future posts?
As I think I have mentioned, probably way back gtowards the beginning of this saga, I have been reading and posting on Ship of Fools almost as long as on BBC/here,and if he tried there the kind of approach he uses here, he would, I think,  be 'taken to Hell' for it!
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Alan Burns

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #38469 on: February 13, 2020, 02:52:36 PM »


Yes, we are “free” at an experiential level, just as we are free to choose either tea or coffee. We cannot though be free at a deeper, explanatory level in the sense you intend it of floating untethered from causes because that’s logically impossible Will this ever sink in?
Oh dear god. See above…


How can you possibly compare the trivial choice between tea or coffee with the profound consciously driven mental gymnastics required to compose such detailed replies to my posts?  To conclude that it is all subconsciously driven brain activity is not personal incredulity - it is a blindingly obvious impossibility.
The truth will set you free  - John 8:32
Truth is not an abstraction, but a person - Edith Stein
Free will, though it makes evil possible, is also the only thing that makes possible any love or goodness or joy worth having. - CS Lewis
Joy is the Gigantic Secret of Christians - GK Chesterton

Stranger

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #38470 on: February 13, 2020, 03:04:59 PM »
To conclude that it is all subconsciously driven brain activity is not personal incredulity - it is a blindingly obvious impossibility.
  • No, since you can provide no reasoning, it's definitely just incredulity.

  • What is actually impossible are both your assertions about freedom being true (no randomness and not deterministic).

  • It really doesn't have anything to do with how much is conscious or subconscious - why do you never take any notice of what is said to you?
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bluehillside Retd.

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #38471 on: February 13, 2020, 03:08:45 PM »
AB,

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How can you possibly compare the trivial choice between tea or coffee with the profound consciously driven mental gymnastics required to compose such detailed replies to my posts?

Because, obviously, the point is that as phenomena actions cannot be untethered from their causes. Whether the action is simple or complex makes no difference to that basic principle.   

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To conclude that it is all subconsciously driven brain activity is not personal incredulity -

It's "occurring" rather than "driven" and you're right - no personal incredulity is necessary when basic logic supports that conclusion.

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...it is a blindingly obvious impossibility.

Then if you think something is blindingly obvious, why not finally have a go at explaining why you think it's an impossibility rather than just assert it?

PS Oh, and I see that - as ever - you've just ignored the recent demolitions of your last car crash attempts at reasoning. Why is that?
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God

torridon

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #38472 on: February 13, 2020, 03:42:48 PM »
How can you possibly compare the trivial choice between tea or coffee with the profound consciously driven mental gymnastics required to compose such detailed replies to my posts?  To conclude that it is all subconsciously driven brain activity is not personal incredulity - it is a blindingly obvious impossibility.

On the contrary, all conscious thought is 'subconsciously driven' to use your parlance.  It's not about whether said thoughts are complex or simple, this is simply fundamental to how mind works.  What would be impossible would be that our conscious thoughts have no derivation in prior mind states.

Outrider

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #38473 on: February 13, 2020, 03:44:55 PM »
How can you possibly compare the trivial choice between tea or coffee with the profound consciously driven mental gymnastics required to compose such detailed replies to my posts?

Because whilst they might be quantitatively different - matters of scale and degree - they are qualitatively the same; what, functionally is the difference between the two sets of choices?

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To conclude that it is all subconsciously driven brain activity is not personal incredulity - it is a blindingly obvious impossibility.

Only if you have grounds for thinking that they require different processes - not different degrees of the same process, not more complicated versions of the same process, but something that by its nature is different.

O.
Universes are forever, not just for creation...

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Alan Burns

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #38474 on: February 13, 2020, 04:44:19 PM »

No, since you can provide no reasoning, it's definitely just incredulity.
My reasoning is based on an obvious need for your consciously driven interaction required to formulate the (admittedly flawed) reasoning in your posts.
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What is actually impossible are both your assertions about freedom being true (no randomness and not deterministic)
I have not claimed that the content of your posts was not deterministic.  My contention is about the nature of the determining cause.  You claim the cause is an inevitable reaction to past events.  I deduce that the cause is your consciously driven will acting and existing in the present.
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It really doesn't have anything to do with how much is conscious or subconscious - why do you never take any notice of what is said to you?
If such reasoning does not require any conscious interaction, why do you need to be conscious when composing your detailed replies?

The truth will set you free  - John 8:32
Truth is not an abstraction, but a person - Edith Stein
Free will, though it makes evil possible, is also the only thing that makes possible any love or goodness or joy worth having. - CS Lewis
Joy is the Gigantic Secret of Christians - GK Chesterton