Author Topic: Searching for GOD...  (Read 3877258 times)

SusanDoris

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #39075 on: March 10, 2020, 04:26:33 PM »
The real me and the real you comprise far more than material reactions can ever produce, Susan.
As you will find out when the veil of deception is lifted.
Well, that's another rubbish assertion unfortunately.
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ProfessorDavey

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #39076 on: March 10, 2020, 04:27:09 PM »
The real me and the real you comprise far more than material reactions can ever produce, Susan.
You may perceive that Alan, but that is in effect the equivalent of anthropomorphising matters. Simply because we perceive things to be incredibly important to us does not mean that those perceptions aren't entirely based on material reactions that are going on in your and my bodies.

Those material reactions that define us and, in reality, are us are so unbelievably complex that we haven't come close to fully understanding them.

SusanDoris

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #39077 on: March 10, 2020, 04:28:28 PM »
Deleted -posted twice by mistake - although perhaps it was a good thing to post it twice!
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bluehillside Retd.

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #39078 on: March 10, 2020, 04:43:41 PM »
AB (Reply 39070):

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Apart from the fact that we have no idea what comprises consciousness in material terms or how it works.

Also AB (Reply 39073):

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I do not know how the human soul works.

You couldn’t make it up. Oh wait – you just did.

Oh, and to correct you yet again:

1. Yes, we do know quite a bit about how consciousness works. Try all of neuroscience for starters.

2. Even if we knew nothing of how consciousness works there'd be no good reason to exclude a naturalistic explanation for it.

3. And still you've made no progress whatsoever toward the massive task you've given yourself of demonstrating a "supernatural" at all, of resolvlng the determined vs random problem, of addressing anything at all in fact that bedevils your deeply irrational conjectures.   

Apart from all that though...
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God

ProfessorDavey

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #39079 on: March 10, 2020, 04:49:21 PM »
AB (Reply 39070):

Also AB (Reply 39073):

You couldn’t make it up. Oh wait – you just did.

Oh, and to correct you yet again:

1. Yes, we do know quite a bit about how consciousness works. Try all of neuroscience for starters.

2. Even if we knew nothing of how consciousness works there'd be no good reason to exclude a naturalistic explanation for it.

3. And still you've made no progress whatsoever toward the massive task you've given yourself of demonstrating a "supernatural" at all, of resolvlng the determined vs random problem, of addressing anything at all in fact that bedevils your deeply irrational conjectures.   

Apart from all that though...
We know an awful lot about consciousness which is inextricably linked to neuroscience and the functioning of our brain. As I mentioned in my last post those material reactions are incredibly complex so we are a long way from understanding everything, but that doesn't mean the elements that we don't yet understand are somehow not based on material reactions - in some kind of 'god of the gaps' nonsense.

And just because something is incredible important to us as humans we shouldn't pretend it therefore cannot be 'just materials reactions' as if that is somehow beneath us as humans. To do so is both belittling to the astonishing complexity of living things, but also terribly arrogant as humans - effetely that we are somehow uniquely special - we aren't.

bluehillside Retd.

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #39080 on: March 10, 2020, 04:51:49 PM »
AB,
 
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I do not know how the human soul works.

Yes you do – it’s magic innit right?

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I just know that it frees me to do my own will.

As you have no arguments to justify that belief, how do you know that?

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My conscious freedom is a reality which can't be denied by flawed human logic.

“Human logic” isn’t flawed because it falsifies some unqualified assertions you believe to be true.

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Without our conscious freedom, the concept of logic would never exist because we would not have the freedom to contemplate logic.

Circular reasoning – yet another of the various fallacies on which your efforts rely.

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And I would not have the freedom to make all these assertions I am constantly being accused of.

Accused rightly (see above) and yet again, yes you would – the experience would be exactly the same whether that “freedom” was deterministic or “it’s magic innit” in character.

Apart from all that though…
"Don't make me come down there."

God

bluehillside Retd.

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #39081 on: March 10, 2020, 05:13:35 PM »
AB,

Predictably, I see you just ignored (or got wrong again) all of the following:

Quote
Except:

1. We observe the phenomenon of emergence pretty much everywhere we look in nature, and there’s no good reason to exclude consciousness from that explanatory model.

2. Emergence as the explanation has the huge advantage of not requiring a magic “driver” that somehow functions outwith our ability to detect it and, apparently, operates neither deterministically nor randomly but without a third functional methodology (“it’s magic innit” not being a methodology despite your attachment to it).

3. Circular reasoning is a wrong argument. If you just assert the need for a “driver” with no supporting logic to justify it, then you’ll unavoidably end up with solutions like “soul” to fix the problem – ie, rubbish in = rubbish out.

4. As an experience “free” will as a deterministic phenomenon and as a magic one WOULD FEEL EXACTLY THE SAME. In the total absence of any supporting reason or evidence, your only reason for rejecting the former a priori therefore is wishful thinking. Or as you call it, “faith”.

5. Despite claiming to have logic to support you, all you ever do is to describe an experiential feeling – “It FEELS like there’s a separate “me” in charge, therefore there IS a separate me in charge”. As a description of a feeling, that’s fine; as a logically sound argument to justify a belief though it’s not even wrong.

Apart from all that though…

See, here’s the thing. All of the above tells you that, even if we knew already nothing of consciousness, the working explanation that it’s deterministic in character requires many fewer assumptions than the unqualified conjecture that it’s supernatural. First you’d have to tell us what “supernatural” means in a coherent fashion, then you’d have to demonstrate its existence at all with some sound reasoning of your own, then you’d have to explain how it could be investigated and tested, then you’d have to tell us how a “soul” would function outside of known logical constraints, then etc etc.

Now then – let me introduce you to Mr Occam and his razor. Remember him? Yes, that’s right – the only problem with the naturalistic explanation is the gaps in the model – just as there are gaps in the naturalistic models for gravity, for germs causing disease etc. The problems with your conjectures on the other hand are vast and various – so many and so intractable that it’s hard to know where to begin in fact, so why in your opinion should not only reason and evidence but also Occam’s Razor be thrown in the bin for people should agree with your incoherent assertions?
« Last Edit: March 10, 2020, 05:16:21 PM by bluehillside Retd. »
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God

ippy

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #39082 on: March 10, 2020, 05:20:11 PM »
Well, that's another rubbish assertion unfortunately.

Susan I wouldn't be quiet so dismissive if I were you I think you'll find Alan just about stopped himself, chickened out from finishing his post to you, I spotted it, you must have missed it, I'm sure what he was going to say was as follows:

'The real me and the real you comprise far more than material reactions can ever produce, Susan.
As you will find out when the veil of deception is lifted, you devilish little minx'!

Well anyway I spotted it, I'll bet you devilish little tap dancers get this sort of comment all of the time?

Regards, ippy.
« Last Edit: March 10, 2020, 05:22:47 PM by ippy »

torridon

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #39083 on: March 10, 2020, 05:24:03 PM »
I do not know about you, but I am quite certain that I can choose what to think about - I make the choice, it is not chosen for me, just as I am free to choose how to answer your post. (and make assertions!)

And I am quite certain that I can take two apples out of the fruit basket and make them touch each other.

You see, we are only certain of how things seem to be to us, whereas none of us can be so certain of the substrates of reality that lie below our waking conscious experience and which give rise to it.

On a casual level, we believe that we are in control of our choices, just as on a casual level we can content ourselves that the Earth is flat and stationary underneath our feet, which it isn't, or that time flows uniformly forwards, which it doesn't.

And it is the same with the workings of mind, there is vast complexity going on below the level of our everyday waking experience that we are not aware of.  Superficially, it might be true to say, we can control our thoughts, for instance.  But this claim makes no sense in a deeper understanding of mind, and your unwillingness or inability to engage with deeper understandings manifest all over this thread.

You've always been on the wrong side of this argument and you'll never win it for the same reason that Flat Earthers will never prevail over science or Creationism will prevail over evolutionary biology - evidence and reason are not on your side.
« Last Edit: March 10, 2020, 05:26:16 PM by torridon »

Alan Burns

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #39084 on: March 10, 2020, 05:26:54 PM »
You may perceive that Alan, but that is in effect the equivalent of anthropomorphising matters. Simply because we perceive things to be incredibly important to us does not mean that those perceptions aren't entirely based on material reactions that are going on in your and my bodies.

Those material reactions that define us and, in reality, are us are so unbelievably complex that we haven't come close to fully understanding them.
And no doubt you perceive that all this "unbelievable complexity" was somehow generated from random unguided forces.  Forces which are demonstrably destructive as opposed to creative.
And no doubt you perceive that every one of the billions of accidental mutations involved gave sufficient benefit in their own right to be selected by giving survival advantage.
Is there no limit to the specific complexity this crude process of evolution can generate?
The truth will set you free  - John 8:32
Truth is not an abstraction, but a person - Edith Stein
Free will, though it makes evil possible, is also the only thing that makes possible any love or goodness or joy worth having. - CS Lewis
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bluehillside Retd.

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #39085 on: March 10, 2020, 05:46:09 PM »
AB,

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And no doubt you perceive that all this "unbelievable complexity" was somehow generated from random unguided forces.

Random, no (the laws of physics don’t apply randomly); unguided, yes.

Quote
Forces which are demonstrably destructive as opposed to creative.

Scientifically illiterate.

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And no doubt you perceive that every one of the billions of accidental mutations involved gave sufficient benefit in their own right to be selected by giving survival advantage.

That’s what the overwhelming evidence suggests, yes.

Quote
Is there no limit to the specific complexity this crude process of evolution can generate?

It’s not ”specific” complexity, just complexity; evolution isn’t crude; and no-one knows.
"Don't make me come down there."

God

SusanDoris

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #39086 on: March 10, 2020, 06:12:45 PM »
Ippy

:) thank you! Something to smile at before I turn off. I try not to finish my day on an AB post - it's too disheartening!
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Alan Burns

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #39087 on: March 10, 2020, 11:34:13 PM »
Susan I wouldn't be quiet so dismissive if I were you I think you'll find Alan just about stopped himself, chickened out from finishing his post to you, I spotted it, you must have missed it, I'm sure what he was going to say was as follows:

'The real me and the real you comprise far more than material reactions can ever produce, Susan.
As you will find out when the veil of deception is lifted, you devilish little minx'!

Well anyway I spotted it, I'll bet you devilish little tap dancers get this sort of comment all of the time?

Regards, ippy.
We are all God's creation, Ippy, and we are all loved.
The truth will set you free  - John 8:32
Truth is not an abstraction, but a person - Edith Stein
Free will, though it makes evil possible, is also the only thing that makes possible any love or goodness or joy worth having. - CS Lewis
Joy is the Gigantic Secret of Christians - GK Chesterton

Alan Burns

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #39088 on: March 10, 2020, 11:42:42 PM »

It’s not ”specific” complexity, just complexity; evolution isn’t crude; and no-one knows.
Specific complexity certainly exists in human creativity.
So why not in God's creativity, where much of the perceived complexity is beyond human understanding?
The truth will set you free  - John 8:32
Truth is not an abstraction, but a person - Edith Stein
Free will, though it makes evil possible, is also the only thing that makes possible any love or goodness or joy worth having. - CS Lewis
Joy is the Gigantic Secret of Christians - GK Chesterton

ippy

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #39089 on: March 10, 2020, 11:49:57 PM »
Alan, Torridon makes more sense in the following short paragraph than all of your nonsense unsupported assertions added together:

'You've always been on the wrong side of this argument and you'll never win it for the same reason that Flat Earthers will never prevail over science or Creationism will prevail over evolutionary biology - evidence and reason are not on your side'.

Well said Torri, trouble is he's somehow managed to let himself get locked out of any reasoning he may have ever had.

Would that you were able to see and understand this from Torridon, there's no Mr Magic at the controls Alan, even you with your convoluted attempts at magicking up reason shows that magic doesn't work.

Take note Alan! Commiserations to you Alan, ippy.

ippy

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #39090 on: March 11, 2020, 01:12:03 AM »
We are all God's creation, Ippy, and we are all loved.

Well Alan I'm sure you mean well but the trouble is you, even after all of the posts you've placed on this thread you've not managed to put one foot forward from day one in your many attempts to substantiate that this god figure of yours you always keep going on about actually exists.

Even you must at some time will have to admit that there's not even enough evidence for the existence of this god figure of yours to make it worth the trouble investigating any further in trying to confirm that there is in fact any such thing as a god, Torri's explained that to you very clearly, Mr Google, no doubt, will be able to point you in the direction of the flat Earthers Soc.

Commiserations Alan, ippy.

Stranger

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #39091 on: March 11, 2020, 06:12:36 AM »
I do not know how the human soul works.
I just know that it frees me to do my own will.

And where does that will come from? How does it make choices? Why does it need the contradictory ability to have been able to do differently without randomness? You don't appear to have thought about this at all, let alone attempted to apply logic.

My conscious freedom is a reality which can't be denied by flawed human logic.

Your assertions about "conscious freedom" don't even make sense and just calling logic "flawed" doesn't make it so. You are the one who has claimed to be using logic, so you need to say what the flaws are and (finally) come up with your own reasoning.

Without our conscious freedom, the concept of logic would never exist because we would not have the freedom to contemplate logic.
And I would not have the freedom to make all these assertions I am constantly being accused of.

This is called begging the question.

What is it about anything that humans do that requires that they could have done differently without randomness (and this still isn't a question about consciousness)?

You said you had "sound logic" and a "logical analysis" - all you've posted here is baseless assertions, an impressive collection of fallacies, and meaningless gibberish. I can see no evidence at all that you've even begun to think about this on anything other that a totally superficial and entirely faith-driven level.

Will you finally admit that you don't have a logical argument?
x(∅ ∈ x ∧ ∀y(yxy ∪ {y} ∈ x))

torridon

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #39092 on: March 11, 2020, 06:37:43 AM »
We are all God's creation, Ippy, and we are all loved.

Although not enough to lift that 'veil of deception', apparently

torridon

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #39093 on: March 11, 2020, 06:44:25 AM »
I do not know how the human soul works.
I just know that it frees me to do my own will.
My conscious freedom is a reality which can't be denied by flawed human logic.
Without our conscious freedom, the concept of logic would never exist because we would not have the freedom to contemplate logic.
And I would not have the freedom to make all these assertions I am constantly being accused of.

and a hedgehog is free to do its will as is a robin or a penguin, in so far as nothing obstructs them acting on their will, they are thus free.  None of us however is free of our will, we all act on our will, such as it is, we cannot choose what it should be.

Gordon

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #39094 on: March 11, 2020, 07:19:05 AM »
Specific complexity certainly exists in human creativity.

So, this is your response to BHS's point about evolution and is just another example of your evasiveness by avoiding the point being made by substituting a trite comment.

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So why not in God's creativity, where much of the perceived complexity is beyond human understanding?

Leaving aside that you're begging the question again, how have you managed to perceive this 'God's creativity' if it is, as you say, 'beyond' your understanding? This reads as another of your trite throwaway comments that masquerades as debate but is really no more than meaningless theobabble. 


ekim

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #39095 on: March 11, 2020, 08:34:29 AM »
We are all God's creation, Ippy, and we are all loved.
Some may say 'God so loved the world that he gave it the corona virus'.  This topic is 'Searching for God'.  Perhaps it might make your position clearer if you could declare your understanding of what God is and how to recognise what is being sought.

ProfessorDavey

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #39096 on: March 11, 2020, 08:34:40 AM »
And no doubt you perceive that all this "unbelievable complexity" was somehow generated from random unguided forces.  Forces which are demonstrably destructive as opposed to creative.
As other have pointed out unguided but not random - indeed the very opposite of random as they are driven by fundamental energetics.

So of course you can develop complexity and 'order' in this manner. Here is a simple example - mix 2 simple molecules - water and an amphiphilic lipid. In your understanding that order and complexity cannot happen without some kind of supernatural guidance, you'd predict a random mix of the molecules. But that's not what happens - they naturally self-order into the most ordered structures, including perfect water filled lipid spheres each of which has a coating exactly two molecules thick - no more and no less. Astonishing complexity that occurs naturally. Why does it occur - because it is the lowest energy state.

The notion that complexity can only arise via the guiding hand of something more complex is a route to nowhere as that complex guiding hand must have been generated by a more complex guiding hand and or on ad infenitum. Nope - the only credible argument is that complexity (as we see it) arises from lower levels of complexity - bottom up, self assembled so to speak. And this is exactly what we see in the complexity of our world, driven by fundamental energetic principles.

And no doubt you perceive that every one of the billions of accidental mutations involved gave sufficient benefit in their own right to be selected by giving survival advantage.
Yup, that's right - and I can show the process in the lab to you any day you want. It is standard practice when genetically modifying a micro-organism for research purposes to also include an antibiotic resistance. To select just those with the mutation you want you challenge the cells with the antibiotic in question and only the modified microorganisms survive. Evolutionary principles demonstrated in a dish in a couple of days.

Is there no limit to the specific complexity this crude process of evolution can generate?
It is theoretically limited by the number of genes we possess and therefore the combinations of genes turned on and off and their individual structure (where mutations come in) - humans have about 20,000 genes. Add to that the fact that some genes code for proteins that modify other proteins and you add to that complexity. Throw in the notion that we are dealing with interacting networks of proteins etc and you have an astonishingly complex set of possibilities generated by evolution.

Now some other species have more genes again, and therefore greater propensity for complexity. To understand this we need to recognise that while we may consider 'complexity' in terms of brain function and higher consciousness, this is a fairly human-centric approach. In some respects we are relatively simply organisms with a pretty linear lifecycle and we perhaps don't need so many genes. Compare humans with some species whose life cycles go through distinct phases, distinct sets of genes that generate the larval and adult stages, and further ones that are required for the metamorphosis between those stages. Sure those organisms don't have the neural complexity we have (but that doesn't necessarily require huge numbers of genes, but adaptive neural networks), but in other respects their lifecycles are way more complex than humans.

« Last Edit: March 11, 2020, 09:08:40 AM by ProfessorDavey »

torridon

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #39097 on: March 11, 2020, 08:57:49 AM »
Good stuff from the Prof  ;)

Alan Burns

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #39098 on: March 11, 2020, 09:14:54 AM »
And I am quite certain that I can take two apples out of the fruit basket and make them touch each other.

It is the force fields of the two objects which touch.  The force fields are just as much a part of the objects as are the electrons, neutrons and protons.  An observer does not need knowledge of the intricate differences between electrons, force fields, protons etc to know that the two objects are touching.  It is no illusion.

Incidentally, if the atoms of two objects were to make contact, there would be colliding electrons and subsequent nuclear chaos.  Thankfully it all works as God intended.  ;)
« Last Edit: March 11, 2020, 10:04:05 AM by Alan Burns »
The truth will set you free  - John 8:32
Truth is not an abstraction, but a person - Edith Stein
Free will, though it makes evil possible, is also the only thing that makes possible any love or goodness or joy worth having. - CS Lewis
Joy is the Gigantic Secret of Christians - GK Chesterton

Outrider

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #39099 on: March 11, 2020, 09:46:19 AM »
And no doubt you perceive that all this "unbelievable complexity" was somehow generated from random unguided forces.  Forces which are demonstrably destructive as opposed to creative.

Oh good grief, we're questioning evolution now? Really?  What's a 'creative' force vs a 'destructive' force? Forces are forces, and whether the results of any particular application are creative or destructive is a subjective judgement - one person's destructive explosion in a quarry is another person's creation of usable materials.

Quote
And no doubt you perceive that every one of the billions of accidental mutations involved gave sufficient benefit in their own right to be selected by giving survival advantage.

Mainly; in some instances they gave no significant benefit or penalty, and so were propagated in a haphazard fashion, but generally speaking that appears to be the mechanism by which evolution has occurred.

Quote
Is there no limit to the specific complexity this crude process of evolution can generate?

How 'specific' is 'specific'?  Is the specificity of human evolution more or less 'specific' than that of the various bacteria and fungi that have been evolving for exactly as long?  How are you judging the specificity?  It's almost like someone tried to throw jargon at religion and pretend it was a scientific theory for some reason...  As to what limits evolution can produce, who knows.  All the possible spontaneous mutations that occur in all the possible scenarios of life in all the possible venues of reality that might produce any potential survival or reproductive advantage... we don't know enough to know if that's an infinite or finite prospect, but if it's finite it has sufficient options that we're not nearly close to understanding what the boundaries might be.

O.
Universes are forever, not just for creation...

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