Searching for GOD...

[ProfessorDavey]

I cannot conceive that humans are capable of creating the Christian God.

Really - I can. The christian god is basically just a human with added supernatural powers. The notion that christians claim humans were made in god's image can of course simply be turned around. If humans are made in god's image then god is inherently human-like.

And our God is certainly not regarded as a human with extra powers.

By whom? You may not consider the christian god to be a human with extra powers but that's exactly how it seems to me and to plenty of others here.

God has made Himself known to us by taking the form of a human in the presence of Jesus Christ.

Unevidenced conjecture - but let's work with that notion shall we. So god isn't human-like with extra powers, but reveals himself as a human with extra powers - hmmm.

God also exists as what is commonly known as "our Father", being the ultimate source of all creation, but the true nature of the Father is beyond our human understanding.

Father - being an inherently human term (and gendered by the way) - so actually the christian god isn't just a human with extra powers, but a man with extra powers. Who would have thought that a patriarchal human society would have invented a god that is a man with extra powers.

[Alan Burns]

The human imagination is more than capable of creating the Biblical god and all that is attributed to it.

Well I am pleased to see that you appreciate the amazing power we have to consciously produce thoughts which are way beyond anything which can be represented by material reactions alone.

[Alan Burns]

Father - being an inherently human term (and gendered by the way) - so actually the christian god isn't just a human with extra powers, but a man with extra powers. Who would have thought that a patriarchal human society would have invented a god that is a man with extra powers.

The nature of our ultimate creator is evidenced in the profound opening words of St John's Gospel.

"In the beginning was the word ..."

What is a word in material terms?
Just ink stains on paper, or a pattern of vibrating air?

This divinely inspired writing illustrates the non material nature of God and mankind.
The "word" represents meaning.
Does meaning exist outside human conscious awareness?
Can meaning be represented in wholly material terms?
 
We take so much for granted in our human conscious awareness, but the conscious capabilities of the human mind are beyond any material definition.  We truly are made in the image of something far beyond our material universe.

[torridon]

I cannot conceive that humans are capable of creating the Christian God. 

Why, humans have imagined thousands of gods to date, and that is not including the millions in Hinduism.  Is there something conceptually different about the Christian one, beyond it being the currently most popular one ?

On the other hand, you seem to have no problems at all with the notion of human choice as being something uncaused and yet not random.  That one, is, strictly speaking, literally inconceivable.

[Nearly Sane]

The nature of our ultimate creator is evidenced in the profound opening words of St John's Gospel.

"In the beginning was the word ..."

What is a word in material terms?
Just ink stains on paper, or a pattern of vibrating air?

This divinely inspired writing illustrates the non material nature of God and mankind.
The "word" represents meaning.
Does meaning exist outside human conscious awareness?
Can meaning be represented in wholly material terms?
 
We take so much for granted in our human conscious awareness, but the conscious capabilities of the human mind are truly beyond any material definition.  We truly are made in the image of something far beyond our material universe.

Idiotic argument by emboldening. You worship a murdering thug. My niece dying at 3 hours old is a sacrifice to your blood god.

[Nearly Sane]

The nature of our ultimate creator is evidenced in the profound opening words of St John's Gospel.

"In the beginning was the word ..."

What is a word in material terms?
Just ink stains on paper, or a pattern of vibrating air?

This divinely inspired writing illustrates the non material nature of God and mankind.
The "word" represents meaning.
Does meaning exist outside human conscious awareness?
Can meaning be represented in wholly material terms?
 
We take so much for granted in our human conscious awareness, but the conscious capabilities of the human mind are beyond any material definition.  We truly are made in the image of something far beyond our material universe.

and stop raping the word 'evidenced'

[torridon]

We take so much for granted in our human conscious awareness, but the conscious capabilities of the human mind are beyond any material definition.  We truly are made in the image of something far beyond our material universe.

Assertion without evidence.

To be convincing to people that actually care about what is true and what is not, you're going to have to do better than offer up your personal incredulity.

[Gordon]

The nature of our ultimate creator is evidenced in the profound opening words of St John's Gospel.

"In the beginning was the word ..."

What is a word in material terms?
Just ink stains on paper, or a pattern of vibrating air?

This divinely inspired writing illustrates the non material nature of God and mankind.
The "word" represents meaning.
Does meaning exist outside human conscious awareness?
Can meaning be represented in wholly material terms?
 
We take so much for granted in our human conscious awareness, but the conscious capabilities of the human mind are beyond any material definition.  We truly are made in the image of something far beyond our material universe.

Do the people on the planet you come from really believe shite like this?

I'd suggest you find a street corner and a tambourine, Alan, since your proselytising is wasted here.

[ProfessorDavey]

The nature of our ultimate creator is evidenced in the profound opening words of St John's Gospel.

"In the beginning was the word ..."

Which are just ... well ... words written by a human a bit less than 2000 years ago - so in cosmic terms in the last second of the year.

And word is in itself a purely human concept - a term we use to describe elements of our human language. They are hugely significant to us in human terms but are irrelevant when considered in a broader cosmic context. Furthermore, they are purely manifestations of natural processes - in this case physical processes of written or spoken words, but more fundamentally manifestation of complex neural networks - which while not understanding the complexity of the network well, we do understand very well the underpinning physiology of neural signal transmission and interconnectivity.

Oh and by the way just because some human wrote it doesn't mean it is true - and as the person writing it would have had no concept of the age and originals of the universe his view is frankly irrelevant because we know that in the beginning wasn't the word but the physics that manifested in the earliest stages of the creation of the universe in the big bang.

[Alan Burns]

Which are just ... well ... words written by a human a bit less than 2000 years ago - so in cosmic terms in the last second of the year.

And word is in itself a purely human concept - a term we use to describe elements of our human language. They are hugely significant to us in human terms, but they are purely manifestations of natural processes - in this case physical processes of written or spoken wordds, but more fundamentally manifestation of complex neural networks - which while not understanding the complexity of the network well, we do understand very well the underpinning physiology of neural signal transmission and interconnectivity.

Oh and by the way just because some human wrote it doesn't mean it is true - and as the person writing it would have had no concept of the age and originals of the universe his view is frankly irrelevant because we know that in the beginning wasn't the word but the physics that manifested in the earliest stages of the creation of the universe in the big bang.

But we do not know what ultimately caused the beginning of our universe.
All we do know is that it had a beginning, and it will come to an end when all energy is dissipated.
(Here I could refer to a lecture I gave entitled "God's big firework", but it would be too long to include)

We are able to contemplate these profound questions:
Does the universe have meaning?
Does the concept of meaning exist in the universe, or outside it?
Was the creation of the universe an act of will?
What exists when the universe ends?
Does time exist outside the universe?

Is the fact that we can consciously contemplate such questions an indication of our non material nature?
Or can it all be explained in terms of material reactions alone?

[torridon]

We are able to contemplate these profound questions:
Does the universe have meaning?
Does the concept of meaning exist in the universe, or outside it?
Was the creation of the universe an act of will?
What exists when the universe ends?
Does time exist outside the universe?

Is the fact that we can consciously contemplate such questions an indication of our non material nature?
..

Why would it ?  Can you define what constitutes a 'non material nature' ? How would we identify such a thing ?

[Alan Burns]

Why would it ?  Can you define what constitutes a 'non material nature' ? How would we identify such a thing ?

Something which is impossible to define in terms of material reactions.

[bluehillside Retd.]

AB,

Is the fact that we can consciously contemplate such questions an indication of our non material nature?

No – we have a perfectly adequate material explanation, and in any case you’d have all your work ahead of you to define this supposed “non-material”, to demonstrate its existence at all, to propose a means to investigate its properties etc BEFORE anyone need trouble themselves with it even as a conjecture. You know, the problems and questions you just run away from every time they’re set out for you.

Or can it all be explained in terms of material reactions alone?

That’s what the only coherent reasoning and evidence we have suggests, so probably yes.

[torridon]

Something which is impossible to define in terms of material reactions.

So how do we define what is possible and what is impossible in terms of material reactions ?  Is energy 'material' ? How about time, how about gravity or electromagnetic radiation ? Are fluctuations in the quantum vacuum therefore impossible as there is no material therein ?

[Stranger]

Well I am pleased to see that you appreciate the amazing power we have to consciously produce thoughts which are way beyond anything which can be represented by material reactions alone.

How do you know that they are way beyond material reactions? Are you omniscient?

But we do not know what ultimately caused the beginning of our universe.
All we do know is that it had a beginning, and it will come to an end when all energy is dissipated.

We don't know that the universe had a beginning (unless you are using a rather restricted definition), and if it did, then the idea of a cause of the beginning wouldn't really apply because time is part of the universe.

Is the fact that we can consciously contemplate such questions an indication of our non material nature?

Why on earth would it be? Where is the first hint of any reasoning?

Or can it all be explained in terms of material reactions alone?

That is what the evidence suggests.

Still waiting for any sign of the "sound logic" you said you had or the honesty to admit you have none.

[ProfessorDavey]

Something which is impossible to define in terms of material reactions.

I think the question was how you would identify such a thing, not how you would define such a thing.

[SteveH]

This post of yours Gabriella is meaningless.

ippy.

It makes a lot of sense, unlike many of your posts.

[Roses]

Well I am pleased to see that you appreciate the amazing power we have to consciously produce thoughts which are way beyond anything which can be represented by material reactions alone.

Humans have evolved very well since we climbed out of the primeval swamp.

[Outrider]

I cannot conceive that humans are capable of creating the Christian God.

And yet, when you look through the documentation as it changes over time, he's such an overwhelmingly human character... Presumably you have no problem with the presumption that humans created the Norse, Egyptian, Japanese, Sumerian, Zoroastrian, Celtic, Aztec, Polynesian etc. gods?  Why is this one different?

And our God is certainly not regarded as a human with extra powers.

Not any more, because that was so overtly preposterous, but in origins that was how Yahweh was depicted; jealous, vengeful, spiteful, playing favourites, changeable... entirely human.

God has made Himself known to us by taking the form of a human in the presence of Jesus Christ.

God allegedly made himself known to a small number of middle-Easterners on a number of occasions between two and three and a half thousand years ago; those people have told stories which other people have selectively interpreted and translated in order to make known to us their impression of the ideas that were conveyed to them about stories they heard about those alleged meetings...

God also exists as what is commonly known as "our Father", being the ultimate source of all creation, but the true nature of the Father is beyond our human understanding.

And, more importantly, he doesn't seem inclined to pick up the phone and actually communicate.

And there is the Holy Spirit, which refers to God's continuing spiritual presence here on earth, and is certainly not regarded as any form of "super human" character.

An alleged entity which has no discernible measurable effects, and so is functionally no different to something that doesn't exist.

I totally agree that from the perspective of our material universe, we are an insignificant, unintended blip of life which came into existence on the cooling crust of a tiny blob of molten star debris.  And our lifespan is infinitesimal compared to the time line of our universe.  And the forces of this universe would appear to have no remit to create or support any form of life.  Yet in this indifferent, apparently hostile material universe we have come to exist as conscious entities with the ability to contemplate our reality and interact with this material world.  We no not fit in with the deterministic nature of a material universe which is on a journey of ever increasing entropy and chaos.

The overall arc of the universe, post Big Bang, is that entropy trumps all, but within that there are eddies and swirls.  Of course, where that Big Bang comes from, and what that means for entropy in the longer term is an interesting question.

We are not a natural product of this material universe, because we are the supernatural creation coming from the ultimate source of all creation - our Father in heaven.

I think I missed the bit where you laid out the reasoning for this conclusion from the premises you put above....

O.

[ekim]

The nature of our ultimate creator is evidenced in the profound opening words of St John's Gospel.

"In the beginning was the word ..."

What is a word in material terms?
Just ink stains on paper, or a pattern of vibrating air?

This divinely inspired writing illustrates the non material nature of God and mankind.
The "word" represents meaning.
Does meaning exist outside human conscious awareness?
Can meaning be represented in wholly material terms?
 
We take so much for granted in our human conscious awareness, but the conscious capabilities of the human mind are beyond any material definition.  We truly are made in the image of something far beyond our material universe.

"In the beginning was logos"  'Logos' was a term used in Stoic Philosophy and later by Jewish Hellenistic philosophers, like Philo of Alexandria who lived at about the time of Jesus, to represent intermediary divine being believed to be present in humans and angels and acts among other things as a unifying principle within a material universe.  I suspect that the writer of John's Gospel tried to associate Jesus with that philosophical principle and is the reason why that Gospel differs a lot from the other three.

[Alan Burns]

Humans have evolved very well since we climbed out of the primeval swamp.

I agree.
I know the process of evolution works.
A few posts ago, the Professor gave an illustration of how the process of evolution can be consciously manipulated to achieve a specific, desired result - which is what I believe God has been doing since we climbed out of the primeval swamp.

[bluehillside Retd.]

AB,

I agree.
I know the process of evolution works.
A few posts ago, the Professor gave an illustration of how the process of evolution can be consciously manipulated to achieve a specific, desired result, which is what I believe God has been doing since we climbed out of the primeval swamp.

We all know WHAT you believe Alan – you tell us over and over again. Your problem here though is that we have no idea WHY you believe it because you provide no sound arguments to justify your beliefs. There are two possible reasons for this:

1. You do have sound arguments but you choose to keep them secret (which would seem odd for someone whose only interest is proselytising; or

2. You don't have any sound arguments to justify your beliefs, in which case you - and they - should be ignored.

Which is it?

[Roses]

I agree.
I know the process of evolution works.
A few posts ago, the Professor gave an illustration of how the process of evolution can be consciously manipulated to achieve a specific, desired result - which is what I believe God has been doing since we climbed out of the primeval swamp.

Where is your verifiable evidence any god actually exists?

[Stranger]

I agree.
I know the process of evolution works.
A few posts ago, the Professor gave an illustration of how the process of evolution can be consciously manipulated to achieve a specific, desired result - which is what I believe God has been doing since we climbed out of the primeval swamp.

So where is the "sound logic" you claimed to have to support this belief?

[Alan Burns]

Where is your verifiable evidence any god actually exists?

You and I are the verifiable evidence.