Searching for GOD...

[Alan Burns]

You can't assert reality into being the way you want it to be.

I totally agree, which is why I will continue to witness to the demonstrable evidence of human free will.
You may continue to claim it to be a logical impossibility, but that can't change the reality that you are exercising your freedom to make this claim.

[Alan Burns]

Sure, but that does not say how it makes up its mind.  Merely observing it is 'free' does not address the paradox of how a choice can be uncaused without being random.

It is all down to the power of our consciously controlled human will, as opposed to the uncontrollable reactions to past events.

[Alan Burns]

The alternative, if our choices are not consequential to what went before, is that they are random.  You can't have it both ways and you've made no effort to address this.

And what would it be that initiates such effort if I am totally under the power of past events?

[Stranger]

I totally agree, which is why I will continue to witness to the demonstrable evidence of human free will.

I can see no evidence and can imagine no way in which your self-contradictory notion of freedom can be demonstrated. All you are actually witnessing to is your stubborn refusal to think and your ability to engage in mindless and childish foot-stamping.

You may continue to claim it to be a logical impossibility, but that can't change the reality that you are exercising your freedom to make this claim.

What is it about this "freedom"  that requires that I could have done differently without randomness?

Where is the logic you said you had?

If all you can do is childishly stick your fingers in your ears, stamp your little foot, and mindlessly repeat idiotic assertions, isn't it about time you had the basic human honesty to admit you have no logic?

[Stranger]

And what would it be that initiates such effort if I am totally under the power of past events?

How about you stop being such a hypocrite and answer the questions you keep on avoiding, rather than asking the same ones that have been comprehensively answered countless times before?

[torridon]

It is all down to the power of our consciously controlled human will, as opposed to the uncontrollable reactions to past events.

Which still doesn't address the logical paradox of how something can have no cause without being random.  Just saying it is done 'consciously' is no better than saying it is done 'freely'.  Neither explain how such an impossible event can occur.

[torridon]

And what would it be that initiates such effort if I am totally under the power of past events?

Hello.
 
HELLO.

Is there anybody in there ?

It is you that initiates events as part of the flow of cause and effect.  What you are, the choices you make, reflect what circumstances have made you.  We don't spring randomly out of thin air with no derivation.  We are all products of the influences that fashion us and that is reflected in the choices we make.  Have you never wondered why different people make different choices ?

[Alan Burns]

Hello.
 
HELLO.

Is there anybody in there ?

It is you that initiates events as part of the flow of cause and effect.  What you are, the choices you make, reflect what circumstances have made you.  We don't spring randomly out of thin air with no derivation.  We are all products of the influences that fashion us and that is reflected in the choices we make.  Have you never wondered why different people make different choices ?

You previously posted: "you've made no effort to address this"
Within endless chains of physically driven cause and effect it is hard to see how any form of invocation to make such effort could be made.
"Effort" is not random, nor is it reaction.  It is simply an act of consciously driven will.  We can all do it, because we are not mere biological machines solely under the control of the laws of physics.  I am in control, Torri, and so are you.

[Walter]

You previously posted: "you've made no effort to address this"
Within endless chains of physically driven cause and effect it is hard to see how any form of invocation to make such effort could be made.
"Effort" is not random, nor is it reaction.  It is simply an act of consciously driven will.  We can all do it, because we are not mere biological machines solely under the control of the laws of physics.  I am in control, Torri, and so are you.

there is a strong likelihood of irony in the near future been leveled at you for that statement Alan

[bluehillside Retd.]

AB,

You previously posted: "you've made no effort to address this"
Within endless chains of physically driven cause and effect it is hard to see how any form of invocation to make such effort could be made.
"Effort" is not random, nor is it reaction.  It is simply an act of consciously driven will.  We can all do it, because we are not mere biological machines solely under the control of the laws of physics.  I am in control, Torri, and so are you.

Not only is this wrong, you know perfectly well why it’s wrong because it’s been explained to you so often. What do you think always ignoring the explanations says about your honesty?

[Alan Burns]

What is it about this "freedom"  that requires that I could have done differently without randomness?

The word "freedom" implies that you are free to choose.  By implication this means that you were free to make a conscious choice which was not pre dictated by past events.  I know that I could have chosen to ignore your post, or I could have chosen different words in the reply.  It was all my choice.  I could have chosen differently if I so wished.  It is down to my conscious will which is not just a mechanistic reaction to past events.

If all you can do is childishly stick your fingers in your ears, stamp your little foot, and mindlessly repeat idiotic assertions, isn't it about time you had the basic human honesty to admit you have no logic?

My freedom to make such an admission would prove your logic to be flawed.

[Stranger]

The word "freedom" implies that you are free to choose.  By implication this means that you were free to make a conscious choice which was not pre dictated by past events.

Seriously? You can't conclude something about the world from how you want to (re)define a word.

I know that I could have chosen to ignore your post, or I could have chosen different words in the reply.  It was all my choice.  I could have chosen differently if I so wished.

And why would you have wished differently if there was absolutely no difference in the circumstances or your state of mind? If you could have done, then there could have been no reason for it, so it would have been random.

It is down to my conscious will which is not just a mechanistic reaction to past events.

Foot-stamp.

My freedom to make such an admission would prove your logic to be flawed.

How? Where is the logic?

And shockingly blatant evasion noted.

Are you ever going to answer the actual questions that have been put to you or or you just going to endlessly repeat the same idiotic assertions? Saying you have logic when you didn't could have been a mistake to start off with, due to lack of knowledge or ability, but now it's been explained to you multiple times, by several people, it's difficult to see it as anything but dishonesty (unless you really are incredibly dim). Are you ever going to produce any logic or have the honesty to admit you have none, or has your faith so morally crippled you that you think lying for Jesus is just fine?

[Gordon]

I know that I could have chosen to ignore your post, or I could have chosen different words in the reply.  It was all my choice.  I could have chosen differently if I so wished.

I don't think you could if you tried, Alan: presented with the same posts you would always have replied as you did, due to the preexisting neurological conditions within your biology.

It is down to my conscious will which is not just a mechanistic reaction to past events.

I think it is just that, Alan, but your denial is a powerful defence mechanism.

My freedom to make such an admission would prove your logic to be flawed.

In fact, Alan, the opposite is the case: you are intellectually, as regards your faith anyway, as predictable as a very predictable thing. 

[Alan Burns]

AB,

Not only is this wrong, you know perfectly well why it’s wrong because it’s been explained to you so often. What do you think always ignoring the explanations says about your honesty?

As I have repeatedly pointed out (by using my own conscious freedom) - these explanations fail because they do not reflect the ability of the human mind to make consciously driven choices.  Choices are not reactions.  Nor are they illusions.  How can I possibly choose to refute such explanations without the power to choose?  The power I demonstrate in my choices can't be explained away as just an experience, because my choices are real, not imagined.

[Alan Burns]

And shockingly blatant evasion noted.

Any evasion would imply a deliberate act made by my own conscious will.

[Alan Burns]

In fact, Alan, the opposite is the case: you are intellectually, as regards your faith anyway, as predictable as a very predictable thing.

My faith frees me to pray and develop a relationship with God in ways which could not possibly be predicted.

[Gordon]

My faith frees me to pray and develop a relationship with God in ways which could not possibly be predicted.

Don't be silly, Alan: given all you've said, and given your seemingly entrenched a prioi biases (that you may not be conscious of yourself), you are utterly predictable right down to your routine hyperbolic phraseology.

[bluehillside Retd.]

AB,

As I have repeatedly pointed out (by using my own conscious freedom) - these explanations fail because they do not reflect the ability of the human mind to make consciously driven choices.  Choices are not reactions.  Nor are they illusions.  How can I possibly choose to refute such explanations without the power to choose?  The power I demonstrate in my choices can't be explained away as just an experience, because my choices are real, not imagined.

(Wearily) …yet again,

...See, your major problem here is that your premise is wrong. People keep explaining to you why it’s wrong, but rather than engage with the explanations you just repeat the same wrong premise over and over again. It’s like me asserting “thunder is real, therefore Thor is real”, you correcting me, and me replying, “thunder is real, therefore Thor is real” over and over and over again like a stuck speak your weight machine.

If you had any interest at all in understanding the problem you’d say something like, “OK, you say that the fact of making an argument at all doesn’t justify my premise. Why is that exactly…?” and away we’d go. You won’t do that though will you. Instead you just parrot the same mistake endlessly so as never to have to examine the reasons you think justify it.

I really don’t know how to put this any more clearly for you.

You can keep pretending you’re not doing this, but what you call “pointing out” is precisely what I’ve told you it is: dishonest, evasive, reason-denying, obdurate idiocy. No matter how many times you repeat the idiocy, if you can’t provide reasons to justify it then it will stay idiotic. If that’s what you want people to think of you, then fine. If though you have any interest at all in what’s true, then – finally – have at least the shred of decency needed to admit you have no reasons at all to justify your claims and try at least to engage with the problems with just parroting, “you made an argument, therefore I’m right” over and over again…

..then again we both know you don’t have that shred of decency don’t we and that instead we’re endlessly condemned to the intellectual equivalent of “Polly wants a cracker, Polly wants a cracker” from you until finally you fall off your perch.

[Nearly Sane]

My faith frees me to pray and develop a relationship with God in ways which could not possibly be predicted.

But not free from logic.

[bluehillside Retd.]

AB,

My faith frees me to pray and develop a relationship with God in ways which could not possibly be predicted.

If believing that makes you feel good about yourself, stick with it. It's too late for rationality to pierce the carapace of religious certainty you've spent decades constructing. Be nice though if you didn't try to fill the heads of children with it too. After all, if you can convince them that one set of utter bollocks is true what defence will they have against any other set of utter bollocks?

[Stranger]

As I have repeatedly pointed out (by using my own conscious freedom) - these explanations fail because they do not reflect the ability of the human mind to make consciously driven choices.

Why? In what way does anything that humans do need the ability to have done differently without randomness?

Choices are not reactions.  Nor are they illusions.

Foot-stamp, foot-stamp.

How can I possibly choose to refute such explanations without the power to choose?  The power I demonstrate in my choices can't be explained away as just an experience, because my choices are real, not imagined.

Dishonest misrepresentation. Nobody denies your ability to choose.

In what way do your choices need the ability to have done differently without randomness?

Any evasion would imply a deliberate act made by my own conscious will.

Why does that need the ability to have done differently without randomness?

My faith frees me to pray and develop a relationship with God in ways which could not possibly be predicted.

Yet your posts are so mindlessly repetitive and predictable, most of us could probably have a good guess at what they'll be before you've even seen them. The shock is when you actually show some slight hint that you might even have read and almost thought about something somebody said, instead of just regurgitation some part of your script.

You are totally ignoring the reasoning you have been given, totally ignoring the questions people are asking you, indulging in silly, endless repetition of your thought-free assertions, and you still can't even have the basic human honesty to admit to not having the logic you claimed to have.

Is that how you want to present your faith? Really?

[ippy]

AB,

Not only is this wrong, you know perfectly well why it’s wrong because it’s been explained to you so often. What do you think always ignoring the explanations says about your honesty?

Alan's not ignoring you Blue he's been programmed by his church more than likely when a pre seven year old, it's a bit like the stage hypnotism trick where the victims are made to no longer recognise say the number four, substitute that stage trick to being rendered unable to recognise the word assertion, what it means.

I really believe he has had his ability to recognise, certain phrases cut short he's honestly unable to circumvent this inability of his.

Very sad in a way.

Regards, ippy.

[Sebastian Toe]

As I have repeatedly pointed out (by using my own conscious freedom) - these explanations fail because they do not reflect the ability of the human mind to make consciously driven choices.  Choices are not reactions.  Nor are they illusions.  How can I possibly choose to refute such explanations without the power to choose?  The power I demonstrate in my choices can't be explained away as just an experience, because my choices are real, not imagined.

It should be perfectly obvious to anyone with an ounce if common sense that a logic-free, magic-requiring,extra-dimentional, out of time yet in time, whose operations are totally explanation -free,  "soul" is as useful as a chocolate teapot.
The above was determined by a biological brain, using deterministic principles, backed up by a myriad of research, non of which requires aforementioned "soul".

[Alan Burns]

AB,

(Wearily) …yet again,

You can keep pretending you’re not doing this, but what you call “pointing out” is precisely what I’ve told you it is: dishonest, evasive, reason-denying, obdurate idiocy. No matter how many times you repeat the idiocy, if you can’t provide reasons to justify it then it will stay idiotic. If that’s what you want people to think of you, then fine. If though you have any interest at all in what’s true, then – finally – have at least the shred of decency needed to admit you have no reasons at all to justify your claims and try at least to engage with the problems with just parroting, “you made an argument, therefore I’m right” over and over again…

..then again we both know you don’t have that shred of decency don’t we and that instead we’re endlessly condemned to the intellectual equivalent of “Polly wants a cracker, Polly wants a cracker” from you until finally you fall off your perch.

And no matter how many times you try to justify your own denial of human free will, the more evidence you provide of your considerable ability to utilise your own conscious freedom to think up such arguments

[torridon]

You previously posted: "you've made no effort to address this"
Within endless chains of physically driven cause and effect it is hard to see how any form of invocation to make such effort could be made.
"Effort" is not random, nor is it reaction.  It is simply an act of consciously driven will.  We can all do it, because we are not mere biological machines solely under the control of the laws of physics.  I am in control, Torri, and so are you.

So, there is nothing unusual, let alone supernatural, about making an effort.  Does a wolf expect its dinner to obediently come along and lie down waiting to be eaten, or does it have to make an effort to chase down and kill its dinner ?  Nothing comes for free, to survive, all creatures have to make an effort.  This is entirely natural, not supernatural, and you too could make an effort to understand these things rather than just mindlessly repeating superficial soundbites; doing so does not require you to step outside the laws of physics - learning, thinking, all require the expenditure of calories, just ask anyone studying for exams.  Make an effort, Alan.