Searching for GOD...

[Stranger]

It is fortunate that the core values are still there in the scriptures for all to aspire to.

Alongside the approval of slavery, genocide, and so on...

[Stranger]

The concept of logic would not exist if we did not have the conscious freedom needed to discern it.

Another pointless assertion. So why does that sort of "freedom" need to be the impossible, self-contradictory kind that means we could have done differently without randomness?

Where is the logic you said you had?

[Alan Burns]

Another pointless assertion. So why does that sort of "freedom" need to be the impossible, self-contradictory kind that means we could have done differently without randomness?

Where is the logic you said you had?

In order to justify the logic you keep quoting to me, you need to consider what this logic comprises, what discerns it, how it formed in your conscious mind and what means you have to consciously verify the validity of the said logic.  The "logic" is not a valid starting point.  Before you can proclaim the logic to be true, you have to start from what actually comprises your conscious ability to discern and verify such logic.   What drives this process of discernment and verification?

[Gordon]

In order to justify the logic you keep quoting to me, you need to consider what this logic comprises, what discerns it, how it formed in your conscious mind and what means you have to consciously verify the validity of the said logic.  The "logic" is not a valid starting point.  Before you can proclaim the logic to be true, you have to start from what actually comprises your conscious ability to discern and verify such logic.   What drives this process of discernment and verification?

Biological activity, Alan.

[Stranger]

In order to justify the logic you keep quoting to me, you need to consider what this logic comprises, what discerns it, how it formed in your conscious mind and what means you have to consciously verify the validity of the said logic.  The "logic" is not a valid starting point.  Before you can proclaim the logic to be true, you have to start from what actually comprises your conscious ability to discern and verify such logic.   What drives this process of discernment and verification?

I do (my mind/brain does). Adding lots of waffle doesn't answer the question. In what way is any of this incompatible with what we do being "inevitable reactions". What about it needs the (self-contradictory) ability to be able to have done differently without randomness?

Think about what you're saying. You are trying to claim that I couldn't have written this sentence unless there was the potential for me to have written a different one in exactly the same circumstances and state of mind (so for no possible reason) but somehow for a reason too (because you deny randomness).

It's an utterly daft and totally nonsensical claim.

[torridon]

In order to justify the logic you keep quoting to me, you need to consider what this logic comprises, what discerns it, how it formed in your conscious mind and what means you have to consciously verify the validity of the said logic.  The "logic" is not a valid starting point.  Before you can proclaim the logic to be true, you have to start from what actually comprises your conscious ability to discern and verify such logic.   What drives this process of discernment and verification?

The truth of a proposition is not contingent upon our cognitive abilities.  Did the square of the hypotenuse start to equal the sum of the squares of the other two sides only when Pythagoras figured it out?  Or did right angled triangles always have that property ? 

[Alan Burns]

Biological activity, Alan.

And what discerns the validity of whatever issues from this biological activity?

[Stranger]

And what discerns the validity of whatever issues from this biological activity?

Discerning is part of the biological activity (that's what the evidence is telling us, anyway). Jeez, this has all been explained dozens of times and you just ignore it all, ignore all the contradictions in your own position, and make the same daft assertions and ask the same dimwitted questions over and over and over again.

Where is your logic or the honesty to admit you have none?

[Alan Burns]

I do (my mind/brain does). Adding lots of waffle doesn't answer the question. In what way is any of this incompatible with what we do being "inevitable reactions". What about it needs the (self-contradictory) ability to be able to have done differently without randomness?

Think about what you're saying. You are trying to claim that I couldn't have written this sentence unless there was the potential for me to have written a different one in exactly the same circumstances and state of mind (so for no possible reason) but somehow for a reason too (because you deny randomness).

It's an utterly daft and totally nonsensical claim.

You are claiming to know that your conscious activity is entirely determined by prior causes, which implies that your conscious choices are predetermined by past events beyond the control of your present state of conscious awareness. 

My question relates to what is responsible for the processes involved in determining the presence of this claim within your conscious awareness?  And how can your conscious awareness ascertain the validity of this claim, bearing in mind that if your claim is true, all the processes which make up your conscious awareness would comprise unavoidable reactions to past events.

[ippy]

from the dictionary:
assertion

noun
noun: assertion; plural noun: assertions

    a confident and forceful statement of fact or belief.

I see you're able to read and write the words that describe an assertion in your response to my post and that's where the trouble is, you still haven't quiet managed to get your head around the full meaning of the word 'assertion'.

Your inability to make yourself fully aware of what assertions  amount to yet, should be a worry, because you still haven't got it yet but more of a worry for those around you who are trying hard to get through without success so far.

Commiserations to you Alan, ippy.

[Alan Burns]

Discerning is part of the biological activity  ...

Can you define discernment in biological terms?
What is responsible for driving the discerning process?
Can the process of discernment be driven by unavoidable reactions?
How does the discernment become validated outside the present state of conscious?

[Gordon]

And what discerns the validity of whatever issues from this biological activity?

Again it's just your biology, Alan: whether you like it or not, any mental activity such as discerning is just biology routinely doing what it does.

Given your fondness for equivocation I've no idea of the context regarding how you'd assess 'validity' in relation to biological activity such as mental processes, so perhaps you could explain what you mean.

[Gordon]

Can you define discernment in biological terms?

Neurons firing.

What is responsible for driving the discerning process?

Biological activity, both conscious and subconscious.

Can the process of discernment be driven by unavoidable reactions?

I do wish you'd stop this type of hyperbolic word salad.

How does the discernment become validated outside the present state of conscious?

And again, but of course your personal incredulity is getting in your way again. Please explain the methods whereby mental processes  like discernment get validated, and please remember to explain what you mean by 'validated'.

[Stranger]

Can you define discernment in biological terms?
What is responsible for driving the discerning process?

Firstly, these questions have been answered many times before, and secondly, stop being such a hypocrite. You are proposing self-contradictory magic as an "answer" and you hardly ever give straight answers to the questions you are asked.

Can the process of discernment be driven by unavoidable reactions?

Why not?

How does the discernment become validated outside the present state of conscious?

How does it become validated within something that is meaningless gibberish?

Where is your logic or the honesty to admit you have none?

[Stranger]

You are claiming to know that your conscious activity is entirely determined by prior causes... 

I don't claim to know any such thing - there could be genuine randomness or at least effective randomness involved.

...which implies that your conscious choices are predetermined by past events beyond the control of your present state of conscious awareness. 

As has been explained many, many times, they are not predetermined, they are determined by my mind at the time, for all the reasons (internal and external) that existed at that time.

My question relates to what is responsible for the processes involved in determining the presence of this claim within your conscious awareness?

My nature, nurture, life of experience, and the current circumstances, as has been explained endless times before.

And how can your conscious awareness ascertain the validity of this claim, bearing in mind that if your claim is true, all the processes which make up your conscious awareness would comprise unavoidable reactions to past events.

I can ascertain the validity of something because of my abilities and knowledge that have been gained because of my nature, nurture, and life of experience. You have still given not the slightest hint of a suggestion of a reason why this can't all be achieved by "unavoidable reactions". How about finally answering my question?

Where is your logic or the honesty to admit you have none?

[torridon]

Can you define discernment in biological terms?
What is responsible for driving the discerning process?
Can the process of discernment be driven by unavoidable reactions?
How does the discernment become validated outside the present state of conscious?

An eagle can discern a rabbit from the background foliage from a mile up in the sky.  That is discernment, totally biological.  A polar bear can discern the smell of a rotting seal 30km away. That is discernment, totally biological. Remarkable, yes, but there ain't nothing magic about it.

[Enki]

Can you define discernment in biological terms?

Discernment is the ability of showing good judgement according to the dictionary. Hence discernment involves such things as the ability to perceive actual differences, to be able to discriminate and the ability to be as objective as possible when making judgements about people and things. It also seems to be tied up with the power to absorb knowledge and experiences and to show some understanding of what is being assessed. All these various abilities seem to be located within the neural functioning of our brains. And, of course, we are not the only animal which shows this ability. What we can say with some confidence is that when a person dies, their ability to discern dies with them, a fact which suggests very strongly, that discernment is biological.

What is responsible for driving the discerning process?

The brain. Discernment seems to provide an extremely useful evolutionary function, especially in social species such as ours.

Can the process of discernment be driven by unavoidable reactions?

Of course! Why not?

How does the discernment become validated outside the present state of conscious?

It depends on how one looks at decision making as to whether it is a product of the conscious, the subconscious or a mix of the two. By 'present' I assume you mean the immediate past. Discernment might be looked upon as decision making, There are various suggestions as to how this takes place. My own assessment(which could well change in the light of new evidence) would be that our consciousness is supplying the data which is being assessed by our subconscious. Hence, it is often said that discernment seems to have an intuitive element.

Now, you might not like these answers, but at least I have tried honestly to respond to your questions even though they weren't directed at me.


I have asked you several questions recently:

1) On April 5th(on the 'God and Suffering' thread):

So, what are the determining factors within the 'human soul' which would produce the inevitable reactions of the human will in making its decisions and choices?

2) On Feb 23rd(on this thread):

How do we make decisions? Never mind the 'opportunity', what about the process?

3) On Feb 19th(on this thread):

However let's take your first premise, which was that we have the reality of our own freedom to consciously contemplate and think about the source of our own thought processes.

Could you please lay out the logical steps from this premise, such that it leads to a conclusion that you wish to make?

None of which you have addressed at all.

In my book that's called hypocrisy, Alan!

[Alan Burns]

An eagle can discern a rabbit from the background foliage from a mile up in the sky.  That is discernment, totally biological.  A polar bear can discern the smell of a rotting seal 30km away. That is discernment, totally biological. Remarkable, yes, but there ain't nothing magic about it.

I was using discerment in relation to the process of consciously discerning logical truths.

I think you are confusing such thought processes with programmed instinctive reactions.

[Gordon]

I was using discerment in relation to the process of consciously discerning logical truths.

You mean thinking: brains are fairly good at that, and there is no alternative anyway, though some are better at it than others.

I think you are confusing such thought processes with programmed instinctive reactions.

And I think you are making shit up as you go along.

[Stranger]

I was using discerment in relation to the process of consciously discerning logical truths.

I think you are confusing such thought processes with programmed instinctive reactions.

More pointless thought-free repetition of the same old drivel, while totally ignoring awkward questions and the logical impossibilities of your own position.

Where is your logic or the honesty to admit you have none?

[torridon]

I was using discerment in relation to the process of consciously discerning logical truths.

I think you are confusing such thought processes with programmed instinctive reactions.

They are all the same when you pare them down to elementary neurological processes.  Your ability to discern the validity of a proposition in formal logic derives from your ability to discern between colours, or between something edible and something poisonous. We stay alive because our minds have developed finely tuned internal models of what the outer world is like and this is true whether you are a pygmy shrew or a professor of formal logic. The professor merely can bring greater degrees of abstraction to his modelling.  He doesn't have any magic at his disposal, though, really he doesn't.

[Stranger]

Your ability to discern the validity of a proposition in formal logic...

Where did you get the idea that Alan had such an ability?

[ippy]

Can you define discernment in biological terms?
What is responsible for driving the discerning process?
Can the process of discernment be driven by unavoidable reactions?
How does the discernment become validated outside the present state of conscious?

I think it's called cognitive dissonance Alan, something very similar to when smokers work out all sorts of illogical reasons to justify themselves to themselves for continuing with a destructive habit, in your case a daft imaginary habit.

Commiserations to you Alan, ippy.

[Alan Burns]

the claimed resurrection simply isn't history ...

Yes, especially where people take the NT too literally ...
 
remember the 'resurrection' can't be claimed as a historical event ...

A profound Easter Homily which highlights the absence of any basis for these personal opinions and assertions:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8qW45nEHJHw

[jeremyp]

This weekend I will be joining with millions of fellow Christians to celebrate the single, most profound event in the history of mankind which is responsible for much of the world we live in today (including this marathon thread!) - the Resurrection.  Could fiction have achieved this?  Can you imagine what this world would be like if the resurrection had not occurred?

Much better?