Author Topic: Searching for GOD...  (Read 3734385 times)

Gordon

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 18177
Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #39725 on: April 22, 2020, 02:00:33 PM »
A profound Easter Homily which highlights the absence of any basis for these personal opinions and assertions:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8qW45nEHJHw

Well now: in the first paragraph of the text below the video he states that the resurrection is a 'reality'. Therefore, he is either lying or his faith is getting in the way of critical thinking - he seems genuine, so I suspect the latter.

ippy

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 12679
Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #39726 on: April 22, 2020, 02:53:09 PM »
A profound Easter Homily which highlights the absence of any basis for these personal opinions and assertions:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8qW45nEHJHw

I suppose most of Easter could as you have indicated be considered  a profound tedious moralising lecture, it certainly would be to over a half of the UK's population including myself, I agree with you Alan on this one.

Commiserations to you Alan, ippy.

Alan Burns

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 10149
  • I lay it down of my own free will. John 10:18
Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #39727 on: April 22, 2020, 06:55:28 PM »
Well now: in the first paragraph of the text below the video he states that the resurrection is a 'reality'. Therefore, he is either lying or his faith is getting in the way of critical thinking - he seems genuine, so I suspect the latter.
Have you ever considered the accuracy of your own ability at critical thinking?

Among other things, he highlights the profound difference between myth and historical fact, putting the onus on those who claim the essence of Christianity to be based on myth to produce evidence for making such a claim.
The truth will set you free  - John 8:32
Truth is not an abstraction, but a person - Edith Stein
Free will, though it makes evil possible, is also the only thing that makes possible any love or goodness or joy worth having. - CS Lewis
Joy is the Gigantic Secret of Christians - GK Chesterton

bluehillside Retd.

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 19417
Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #39728 on: April 22, 2020, 07:10:14 PM »
AB,

Quote
Have you ever considered the accuracy of your own ability at critical thinking?

Most of us do that (unlike incidentally the religious who claim “absolute certainty”, that “my mind could never be changed” etc) but fortunately we have an objective means to test our thinking, ie logic. In particular some types of argument have been formalised and codified as fallacies both formal and informal so when someone tries an argument aligned to one such we know it to be false. While you appear to be indifferent to your reliance on logical fallacies, nonetheless fallacies they are so each time you essay an argumentum ad consequentiam, an argument by assertion, the post hoc ergo propter hoc, the NPF and so on we have a convenient and objective way to know that your argument is wrong.   

Quote
Among other things, he highlights the profound difference between myth and historical fact, putting the onus on those who claim the essence of Christianity to be based on myth to produce evidence for making such a claim.

Then he has made a profound mistake in reasoning – known as the burden of proof. It’s not for others to demonstrate that the story is myth; it’s for him to demonstrate that it's fact. In other words, his claim = his burden of proof.   
« Last Edit: April 22, 2020, 07:20:42 PM by bluehillside Retd. »
"Don't make me come down there."

God

Nearly Sane

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 63410
Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #39729 on: April 22, 2020, 07:13:22 PM »
Have you ever considered the accuracy of your own ability at critical thinking?

Among other things, he highlights the profound difference between myth and historical fact, putting the onus on those who claim the essence of Christianity to be based on myth to produce evidence for making such a claim.
This is called reversing the burden of proof.  Your claim, your burden.

Gordon

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 18177
Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #39730 on: April 22, 2020, 07:23:03 PM »
Have you ever considered the accuracy of your own ability at critical thinking?

Yes: it's imperfect, but I'm always trying to learn - even so my 'this is shite' detector does seem reliable.

Quote
Among other things, he highlights the profound difference between myth and historical fact, putting the onus on those who claim the essence of Christianity to be based on myth to produce evidence for making such a claim.

You should know better by now: the claim is yours, Alan, as is the burden of proof.
« Last Edit: April 22, 2020, 07:31:51 PM by Gordon »

bluehillside Retd.

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 19417
Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #39731 on: April 22, 2020, 07:25:12 PM »
Incidentally AB I started watching the sermon but he went off the logical rails so fast that there didn’t seem much point in finishing it. Seemed like a nice chap though: misguided, but nice.
"Don't make me come down there."

God

Alan Burns

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 10149
  • I lay it down of my own free will. John 10:18
Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #39732 on: April 22, 2020, 07:32:55 PM »


Then he has made a profound mistake in reasoning – known as the burden of proof. It’s not for others to demonstrate that the story is myth; it’s for him to demonstrate that it's fact. In other words, his claim = his burden of proof.
Did you listen to his homily?
Did you understand it?
The truth will set you free  - John 8:32
Truth is not an abstraction, but a person - Edith Stein
Free will, though it makes evil possible, is also the only thing that makes possible any love or goodness or joy worth having. - CS Lewis
Joy is the Gigantic Secret of Christians - GK Chesterton

Nearly Sane

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 63410
Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #39733 on: April 22, 2020, 07:33:58 PM »
Did you listen to his homily?
Did you understand it?
Did you read bhs's post?
Did you understand it?

bluehillside Retd.

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 19417
Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #39734 on: April 22, 2020, 07:35:51 PM »
AB,

Quote
Did you listen to his homily?
Did you understand it?

As much as I needed to (see above). What do you think there was to understand when the validating arguments for the claims are wrong? 
"Don't make me come down there."

God

Nearly Sane

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 63410
Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #39735 on: April 22, 2020, 07:43:34 PM »
I'm sure his homily provides a warm and cosy feeling for those who like that sort of thing: but historical fact it ain't.

I've often asked the likes of yourself on what basis the stories about Jesus can be distinguished from fiction, but you all seem to run away from that challenge: and the burden of proof really is yours.
Think you've replied to wrong post.

Gordon

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 18177
Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #39736 on: April 22, 2020, 08:00:25 PM »
Did you listen to his homily?
Did you understand it?

I'm sure his homily provides a warm and cosy feeling for those who like that sort of thing: but historical fact it ain't.

I've often asked the likes of yourself on what basis the stories about Jesus can be distinguished from fiction, but you all seem to run away from that challenge: and the burden of proof really is yours.

Gordon

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 18177
Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #39737 on: April 22, 2020, 08:02:58 PM »
Think you've replied to wrong post.

Indeed I have: thanks for noting, and apologies for the error.

I've used the same reply, but this time to the correct post of AB's, and I'll remove the erroneous one.

Alan Burns

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 10149
  • I lay it down of my own free will. John 10:18
Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #39738 on: April 22, 2020, 11:27:59 PM »

You should know better by now: the claim is yours, Alan, as is the burden of proof.
The New Testament is written as a historical document by at least seven independent writers, and contains many eye witness testimonies.  The burden of proof lies with those who proclaim it to be myth.
The truth will set you free  - John 8:32
Truth is not an abstraction, but a person - Edith Stein
Free will, though it makes evil possible, is also the only thing that makes possible any love or goodness or joy worth having. - CS Lewis
Joy is the Gigantic Secret of Christians - GK Chesterton

Outrider

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 14481
Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #39739 on: April 23, 2020, 08:21:18 AM »
Have you ever considered the accuracy of your own ability at critical thinking?

Yep.

Quote
Among other things, he highlights the profound difference between myth and historical fact, putting the onus on those who claim the essence of Christianity to be based on myth to produce evidence for making such a claim.

If you're making claims of magic, the onus is on you to show that it's true - no-one expects people to prove that Anu, Ameratsu Omikami, Great Coyote and Elric of Melnibone are mythical, same goes for your mythic Jesus.  There's plenty of scholarship out there on how the myth is likely based on a real person, but the emphasis there is that it's based on a real person, not an avatar of a deity.

O.
Universes are forever, not just for creation...

New Atheism - because, apparently, there's a use-by date on unanswered questions.

Eminent Pedant, Interpreter of Heretical Writings, Unwarranted Harvester of Trite Nomenclature, Church of Debatable Saints

Gordon

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 18177
Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #39740 on: April 23, 2020, 08:28:59 AM »
The New Testament is written as a historical document by at least seven independent writers, and contains many eye witness testimonies.  The burden of proof lies with those who proclaim it to be myth.

You're being supremely silly again.

The NT is a historical document, Alan, but only in sense that it is very old, and your "at least seven independent writers" is an indication of its uncertain provenance: it is a series of anecdotal accounts, some involving remarkable claims, and its proponents (such as yourself) seem determined to ignore the risks of mistakes, lies and the potential biases and credulity of its authors.

So if you want to claim the NT as historical fact the the burden of proof really is yours: perhaps you can find a professional historian, as opposed to a theologian or Christian apologist, who has clearly stated that the claimed resurrection of a clinically dead Jesus can be accepted as being a historical fact.   

Outrider

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 14481
Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #39741 on: April 23, 2020, 08:39:48 AM »
The New Testament is written as a historical document by at least seven independent writers, and contains many eye witness testimonies.  The burden of proof lies with those who proclaim it to be myth.

Firstly, the New Testament was not written.  Various historical works, long after the fact, were gathered together and some of them were selected into the compendium that we now call the New Testament - it was never conceived of by at least the majority of the authors as a single work.  The 'independence' of those seven writers is highly questionable, given that a) we can clearly see the sections within (for instance) the gospels where they are copied from each other and b) the various pieces of editing that have happened over the centuries by subsequent writers.

It is highly unlikely that the vast majority of the claims in the work were related to the authors by eye-witnesses, given the time between the alleged events and the writing. Given the well-demonstrated unreliability of eye-witness testimony, that's not something to inspire a great deal of confidence even for the few events that might be second-hand accounts, especially given that these would have been recounted at least several decades later.

This is before you get to the political/theological motivation for the selection process(es) that decided which works would be canon and which wouldn't, and the selective editing of those works in several cycles later, and the various translation errors and deliberate misdirections, and then finally the decision to move the work to English with an eye more for poetry than accuracy.

All of which is beside the point to the crux of your assertion: it's never on us to prove that your claim is myth.  You're making the claim 'MAGIC' - it's on you to prove that or we can simply ignore the claim.

O.
Universes are forever, not just for creation...

New Atheism - because, apparently, there's a use-by date on unanswered questions.

Eminent Pedant, Interpreter of Heretical Writings, Unwarranted Harvester of Trite Nomenclature, Church of Debatable Saints

Roses

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 7958
Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #39742 on: April 23, 2020, 09:13:16 AM »
The New Testament is written as a historical document by at least seven independent writers, and contains many eye witness testimonies.  The burden of proof lies with those who proclaim it to be myth.

Of course it wasn't, it was a collection of writings, which were put together many centuries after the writers had kicked the bucket. The tales told about that guy, Jesus, are of fairy tale quality many of the events described lack any credibility.
"At the going down of the sun and in the morning we will remember them."

torridon

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 10200
Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #39743 on: April 23, 2020, 09:42:40 AM »
The New Testament is written as a historical document by at least seven independent writers, and contains many eye witness testimonies.  The burden of proof lies with those who proclaim it to be myth.

The accounts of King Arthur were also written in the style of historical fact, and we naively believed them true at face value for centuries before scholarship and archaeology began to discredit them as such.  Now we know them to be myth, literary fabrications in the style of an Origins story for the people of England, much like Adam and Eve were an Origins story for the people of Israel. With good reason, we have learned to be wary, sceptical, about taking ancient narratives at face value, especially fantastical ones.

Enki

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3865
Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #39744 on: April 23, 2020, 11:01:10 AM »
Just as an aside, a theologian called John Mill devoted 30 years to looking at circa 100 extant Greek New Testament manuscripts and produced a work of textual criticism which came out in 1707 on the New testament. This work noted over 30,000 discrepancies between the manuscripts.
Sometimes I wish my first word was 'quote,' so that on my death bed, my last words could be 'end quote.'
Steven Wright

Walt Zingmatilder

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 33040
Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #39745 on: April 23, 2020, 02:10:20 PM »
The accounts of King Arthur were also written in the style of historical fact, and we naively believed them true at face value for centuries before scholarship and archaeology began to discredit them as such.  Now we know them to be myth, literary fabrications in the style of an Origins story for the people of England, much like Adam and Eve were an Origins story for the people of Israel. With good reason, we have learned to be wary, sceptical, about taking ancient narratives at face value, especially fantastical ones.
What about the epistles written before the Gospels?
By your judgement lots of history could be fictional but I never see arguments about that just wheedling atheists chancing their arm at a bit of historical revisionism back dated a couple of thousand years.

bluehillside Retd.

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 19417
Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #39746 on: April 23, 2020, 03:02:46 PM »
Vlad,

Quote
What about the epistles written before the Gospels?
By your judgement lots of history could be fictional but I never see arguments about that just wheedling atheists chancing their arm at a bit of historical revisionism back dated a couple of thousand years.

Just out of interest, why do you suppose biblical miracle stories are taught as examples of faith beliefs alongside other faith belief stories in RE lessons and not as real events in history lessons? Is it because:

1. There’s a long term, global conspiracy of atheist historians refusing to acknowledge their historical truth; or

2. They fail the basic tests of historicity that historians must apply in order to sort the probably true from the probably not true?

Go on, actually try to answer a question for once – I dare you.   
"Don't make me come down there."

God

Walt Zingmatilder

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 33040
Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #39747 on: April 23, 2020, 03:14:06 PM »
Vlad,

Just out of interest, why do you suppose biblical miracle stories are taught as examples of faith beliefs alongside other faith belief stories in RE lessons and not as real events in history lessons? Is it because:

1. There’s a long term, global conspiracy of atheist historians refusing to acknowledge their historical truth; or

2. They fail the basic tests of historicity that historians must apply in order to sort the probably true from the probably not true?

Go on, actually try to answer a question for once – I dare you.   
Just what I expected, an attempt to make historians into scientists. Straight out of the New Atheist playbook with a nice piece of Dawkinsian academic imperialism.

Outrider

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 14481
Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #39748 on: April 23, 2020, 03:16:51 PM »
Just what I expected, an attempt to make historians into scientists. Straight out of the New Atheist playbook with a nice piece of Dawkinsian academic imperialism.

Colour me shocked, Vlad didn't answer the question posed to him - that's never happened bef... oh, wait, no, my mistake.

Carry on.

O.
Universes are forever, not just for creation...

New Atheism - because, apparently, there's a use-by date on unanswered questions.

Eminent Pedant, Interpreter of Heretical Writings, Unwarranted Harvester of Trite Nomenclature, Church of Debatable Saints

Nearly Sane

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 63410
Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #39749 on: April 23, 2020, 03:40:12 PM »
Just what I expected, an attempt to make historians into scientists. Straight out of the New Atheist playbook with a nice piece of Dawkinsian academic imperialism.
The study of history is methodologically naturalistic