Author Topic: Searching for GOD...  (Read 3736210 times)

Alan Burns

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #39875 on: April 30, 2020, 10:57:55 PM »

Seems you've thrown the towel in.
Looks like you missed the addition I made to the last post:

I am not asking you to try to imagine some hypothetical scenario.  I am asking you to contemplate the reality of your own self and your own capabilities and realise that what comprises the amazing gift of your own conscious freedom goes way beyond the consequences of inevitable physical reactions.
The truth will set you free  - John 8:32
Truth is not an abstraction, but a person - Edith Stein
Free will, though it makes evil possible, is also the only thing that makes possible any love or goodness or joy worth having. - CS Lewis
Joy is the Gigantic Secret of Christians - GK Chesterton

ProfessorDavey

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #39876 on: April 30, 2020, 11:05:04 PM »
Looks like you missed the addition I made to the last post:

I am not asking you to try to imagine some hypothetical scenario.  I am asking you to contemplate the reality of your own self and your own capabilities and realise that what comprises the amazing gift of your own conscious freedom goes way beyond the consequences of inevitable physical reactions.
But that is hand-waving un-evidenced assertion, so irrelevant. And again you are using your own conclusion, to err, justify your conclusion. We are asking you to justify how there is conscious free will - and a very good way to challenge you on that is the hypothetical example. If there is conscious free will then those two hypothetical completely identical people (identical in every single respect - their biology, their soul should you think that exists, every single aspect of experience back to the year dot - all identical) could come to different decisions. Frankly I'm struggling to see how they could. Somehow you think they could - so please explain.

Free will seems real when we look through the telescope from one perspective (ours), but when we take an objective perspective and look through the telescope from another direction it is just an illusion.

torridon

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #39877 on: May 01, 2020, 06:48:06 AM »

I am not asking you to try to imagine some hypothetical scenario.  I am asking you to contemplate the reality of your own self and your own capabilities and realise that what comprises the amazing gift of your own conscious freedom goes way beyond the consequences of inevitable physical reactions.

This is not a logical argument in favour of your point of view, it is merely an expression of your personal incredulity in the face of evidence and reason. Rather like a flat earther, unable to conceptualise how the ground which locally seems flat and stable and stationary can actually be spherical and in constant motion, you never are able to support a position with reason and evidence, but just fall back into exasperated incredulity repeating the same things over and over.  It's a symptom of a failure of imagination leaving a yawning gap in understanding handily filled, so you think, by facile magical thinking, such as "amazing gift".  This sort of thinking is really not for grown ups.

Gordon

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #39878 on: May 01, 2020, 07:02:51 AM »
Looks like you missed the addition I made to the last post:

I am not asking you to try to imagine some hypothetical scenario.  I am asking you to contemplate the reality of your own self and your own capabilities and realise that what comprises the amazing gift of your own conscious freedom goes way beyond the consequences of inevitable physical reactions.

When I read this type of puerile drivel I thank God (pun intended) that I avoided theism: this is just your incredulity overwhelming you yet again, loaded with magical thinking as betrayed by phrases like 'amazing gift' and 'way beyond'. 

Stranger

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #39879 on: May 01, 2020, 07:39:55 AM »
As I tried to explain in my earlier post, the essence of what makes you "you" can't be found in reactions to past events, or in contemplating imaginary hypothetical situations, or in trying to deny your own freedom to think.

You're not explaining anything, you're just asserting it. And nobody is denying our freedom to think - that's just more misrepresentation.

I am not asking you to try to imagine some hypothetical scenario.  I am asking you to contemplate the reality of your own self and your own capabilities and realise that what comprises the amazing gift of your own conscious freedom goes way beyond the consequences of inevitable physical reactions.

This is just more assertion based on nothing but incredulity. You are trying to claim something that is logically impossible just because it's the way it feels to you.

Where is the logic you said you had or will you at last admit you have none?
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Outrider

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #39880 on: May 01, 2020, 08:37:10 AM »
There is plenty of evidence which shows random physical reactions to be destructive rather than creative.

Quite apart from the fact that 'random reaction' is something of an oxymoron, whilst there is some evidence for apparent randomness at the quantum level, that randomness balances out (which calls into question whether it's entirely 'random' at all) at the macroscopic level.  As to whether a particular phenomenon is 'destructive' or 'constructive', that's a matter of perspective - forest fires are destructive in the short term, but an integral part of the longer term ecosystem of the forest.

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And the fact that we are unable to detect anything other than physical reactions does not necessarily lead on to the conclusion that there can be nothing other than physical reactions involved.

No, it doesn't.  However, it's not merely the absence of any evidence for non-physical phenomena, its the fact that at no point in the chain of events do we see a phenomenon that doesn't have an immediate, apparent physical cause.  If there's a non-physical element influencing this, then where is the sign of its influence? Where are the unexplained effects?

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Have you ever tried replying to a post by random tapping on a keyboard?

Not personally, but I'm pretty sure I've responded to a couple in my time...

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Or producing entities of conscious awareness from exploding star debris?

I don't need to try that, I can see that all around me.

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Have you read the Bible?

I have.  I wouldn't recommend it.

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But what is the ultimate causation of any deliberate assertion?

What makes you think there's an ultimate cause for anything?  You are presuming there's some significance in the grander scheme to your thought processes that can stretch back to some landmark event - cosmically speaking, your thought process could be exactly as significant as the slight shift of a grain of aluminium oxide dust on a distant, cold moon in an uninhabited backwater world at the far end of a galaxy far, far away...

O.
[/quote]
Universes are forever, not just for creation...

New Atheism - because, apparently, there's a use-by date on unanswered questions.

Eminent Pedant, Interpreter of Heretical Writings, Unwarranted Harvester of Trite Nomenclature, Church of Debatable Saints

Alan Burns

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #39881 on: May 01, 2020, 09:23:26 AM »
But that is hand-waving un-evidenced assertion, so irrelevant. And again you are using your own conclusion, to err, justify your conclusion. We are asking you to justify how there is conscious free will - and a very good way to challenge you on that is the hypothetical example. If there is conscious free will then those two hypothetical completely identical people (identical in every single respect - their biology, their soul should you think that exists, every single aspect of experience back to the year dot - all identical) could come to different decisions. Frankly I'm struggling to see how they could. Somehow you think they could - so please explain.

Free will seems real when we look through the telescope from one perspective (ours), but when we take an objective perspective and look through the telescope from another direction it is just an illusion.
Can you not see the problem here?

You are asking me to use my amazing power of conscious freedom to contemplate an imaginary hypothetical scenario which you think will convince me that such freedom does not exist.
The truth will set you free  - John 8:32
Truth is not an abstraction, but a person - Edith Stein
Free will, though it makes evil possible, is also the only thing that makes possible any love or goodness or joy worth having. - CS Lewis
Joy is the Gigantic Secret of Christians - GK Chesterton

Gordon

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #39882 on: May 01, 2020, 09:30:42 AM »
Can you not see the problem here?

You are asking me to use my amazing power of conscious freedom to contemplate an imaginary hypothetical scenario which you think will convince me that such freedom does not exist.

Well, Alan, you do seem to be using your "amazing power of conscious freedom to contemplate an imaginary hypothetical scenario" - the hypothetical scenario you call 'God'. This casts doubt on this "amazing power" of yours, especially since you seem utterly powerless when confronted with the logical inconsistencies of your own making. 

torridon

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #39883 on: May 01, 2020, 09:55:39 AM »
Can you not see the problem here?

You are asking me to use my amazing power of conscious freedom to contemplate an imaginary hypothetical scenario which you think will convince me that such freedom does not exist.

Don't be silly, no one argues that we cannot think.  It is your conceptualisation of 'freedom' that is irrational in itself.

And of course, you already know this, given its been pointed out innumerable times, but somehow you prefer to keep up this pretence of naivety.

ProfessorDavey

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #39884 on: May 01, 2020, 10:07:57 AM »
Can you not see the problem here?

You are asking me to use my amazing power of conscious freedom to contemplate an imaginary hypothetical scenario which you think will convince me that such freedom does not exist.
And do you think a hypothetical identical second version of you (identical in every respect, identical in terms of every experience up until this precise moment) would have come to a different conclusion to you on this matter?

Alan Burns

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #39885 on: May 01, 2020, 10:20:12 AM »
And do you think a hypothetical identical second version of you (identical in every respect, identical in terms of every experience up until this precise moment) would have come to a different conclusion to you on this matter?
Your imaginary hypothesis is irrelevant because it is a practical impossibility for "me" to exist as two identical entities.  Every soul is unique with its own personal power of free will.

And as I said, the conscious act of imagining such a hypothesis aptly demonstrates the conscious freedom we all enjoy.
The truth will set you free  - John 8:32
Truth is not an abstraction, but a person - Edith Stein
Free will, though it makes evil possible, is also the only thing that makes possible any love or goodness or joy worth having. - CS Lewis
Joy is the Gigantic Secret of Christians - GK Chesterton

ProfessorDavey

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #39886 on: May 01, 2020, 10:24:44 AM »
Your imaginary hypothesis is irrelevant because it is a practical impossibility for "me" to exist as two identical entities.
Hence the notion of a hypothetical second you - stop ducking the question - how is it possible for that second hypothetical and identical in every respect person come to a different decision as you.

Every soul is unique with its own personal power of free will.
Unevidenced assertion - but even if we accept the notion of a soul, it is implicit in my question that that 'soul' would also be identical in you and that hypothetical second you.

Gordon

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #39887 on: May 01, 2020, 10:36:41 AM »
Your imaginary hypothesis is irrelevant because it is a practical impossibility for "me" to exist as two identical entities.  Every soul is unique with its own personal power of free will.

And as I said, the conscious act of imagining such a hypothesis aptly demonstrates the conscious freedom we all enjoy.

It's an obvious thought experiment, Alan: it seems your 'soul' lacks a bit of nuance.

ProfessorDavey

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #39888 on: May 01, 2020, 10:43:01 AM »
It's an obvious thought experiment, Alan: it seems your 'soul' lacks a bit of nuance.
Which the identical hypothetical Alan would also lack - and he would also come out with exactly the same non-sense as the real Alan.

Stranger

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #39889 on: May 01, 2020, 10:46:22 AM »
You are asking me to use my amazing power of conscious freedom to contemplate an imaginary hypothetical scenario which you think will convince me that such freedom does not exist.

Why do you keep lying about what people are claiming? Nobody at all has ever denied that we can think.

You have provided bugger all in the way of any connection at all between the freedom needed to think things through and your impossible, contradictory version.
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Stranger

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #39890 on: May 01, 2020, 10:56:36 AM »
And as I said, the conscious act of imagining such a hypothesis aptly demonstrates the conscious freedom we all enjoy.

HOW?

Where is even the slightest hint of a connection between this ability to imagine and your nonsensical ideas about freedom?
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Alan Burns

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #39891 on: May 01, 2020, 11:04:21 AM »
Hence the notion of a hypothetical second you - stop ducking the question - how is it possible for that second hypothetical and identical in every respect person come to a different decision as you.
Because this hypothetical copy of myself is not "me".
There can only be one "me"  - as there is only one "you".
« Last Edit: May 01, 2020, 11:12:22 AM by Alan Burns »
The truth will set you free  - John 8:32
Truth is not an abstraction, but a person - Edith Stein
Free will, though it makes evil possible, is also the only thing that makes possible any love or goodness or joy worth having. - CS Lewis
Joy is the Gigantic Secret of Christians - GK Chesterton

Alan Burns

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #39892 on: May 01, 2020, 11:11:10 AM »
It's an obvious thought experiment, Alan: it seems your 'soul' lacks a bit of nuance.
And what can possibly drive such a thought experiment?
If I am to rely on nothing but the uncontrollable consequences of physical reactions where would such a thought experiment finish up?
Can you not see the obvious power of your own human will in being able to consciously initiate and perform such a thought experiment?
What drives your thoughts?  Is it you, or the uncontrollable consequences of physical reactions?
The truth will set you free  - John 8:32
Truth is not an abstraction, but a person - Edith Stein
Free will, though it makes evil possible, is also the only thing that makes possible any love or goodness or joy worth having. - CS Lewis
Joy is the Gigantic Secret of Christians - GK Chesterton

Gordon

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #39893 on: May 01, 2020, 11:19:33 AM »
And what can possibly drive such a thought experiment?
If I am to rely on nothing but the uncontrollable consequences of physical reactions where would such a thought experiment finish up?
Can you not see the obvious power of your own human will in being able to consciously initiate and perform such a thought experiment?
What drives your thoughts?  Is it you, or the uncontrollable consequences of physical reactions?

Biology, Alan.


torridon

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #39894 on: May 01, 2020, 11:21:48 AM »
And what can possibly drive such a thought experiment?
If I am to rely on nothing but the uncontrollable consequences of physical reactions where would such a thought experiment finish up?
Can you not see the obvious power of your own human will in being able to consciously initiate and perform such a thought experiment?
What drives your thoughts?  Is it you, or the uncontrollable consequences of physical reactions?

If you chose to do the thought experiment the motivation to do so was probably sparked by the Prof's suggestion to do it.  No spooky supernatural goings on there, just cause and effect running through minds.

Alan Burns

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #39895 on: May 01, 2020, 11:23:34 AM »
Why do you keep lying about what people are claiming? Nobody at all has ever denied that we can think.

My contention is about the freedom we have to drive our own thought processes.

If every thought is a direct, unavoidable consequence of past events then there is no means of conscious directives to guide our own thoughts, because we have no control over the past.  And in the material model we have no control over physically determined reactions. 

So what initiates and drives a conscious contemplation of such an imaginary scenario?
The truth will set you free  - John 8:32
Truth is not an abstraction, but a person - Edith Stein
Free will, though it makes evil possible, is also the only thing that makes possible any love or goodness or joy worth having. - CS Lewis
Joy is the Gigantic Secret of Christians - GK Chesterton

Stranger

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #39896 on: May 01, 2020, 11:25:34 AM »
Can you not see the obvious power of your own human will in being able to consciously initiate and perform such a thought experiment?

How does this "power" relate in any way to your self-contradictory version of freedom?

What drives your thoughts?  Is it you...

Yes.

...or the uncontrollable consequences of physical reactions?

Yes.

Still waiting for any hint of the logic you said you had or the basic honesty to admit you have none.
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Alan Burns

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #39897 on: May 01, 2020, 11:33:58 AM »
Biology, Alan.
Biology is just a label used to describe the physical workings of the material in our human bodies.  It is perfectly adequate to explain the working functions of the amazingly complex machinery which comprises our physical bodies, but it cannot be used to explain the derivation of our conscious thought processes, because there is no biological explanation for what comprises our conscious awareness of thoughts or how they work.
The truth will set you free  - John 8:32
Truth is not an abstraction, but a person - Edith Stein
Free will, though it makes evil possible, is also the only thing that makes possible any love or goodness or joy worth having. - CS Lewis
Joy is the Gigantic Secret of Christians - GK Chesterton

Stranger

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #39898 on: May 01, 2020, 11:35:15 AM »
My contention is about the freedom we have to drive our own thought processes.

We all know what your thought- and logic-free, assertions are.

If every thought is a direct, unavoidable consequence of past events then there is no means of conscious directives to guide our own thoughts...

You're muddling up consciousness with your impossible version of freedom again. Either "conscious directives" come about entirely because of previous events or they would have to involve randomness.

...because we have no control over the past.

You have no control over the person you are and the way you think, regardless - which is exactly the result of the past (unless there's randomness). You don't seem to have given this any thought at all...
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Stranger

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #39899 on: May 01, 2020, 11:38:02 AM »
Biology is just a label used to describe the physical workings of the material in our human bodies.  It is perfectly adequate to explain the working functions of the amazingly complex machinery which comprises our physical bodies, but it cannot be used to explain the derivation of our conscious thought processes, because there is no biological explanation for what comprises our conscious awareness of thoughts or how they work.

...whereas nonsensical, self-contradictory gibbering about magic souls, explains it all so comprehensively.   ::)
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