Author Topic: Searching for GOD...  (Read 3877984 times)

Outrider

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #39900 on: May 01, 2020, 11:57:15 AM »
Biology is just a label used to describe the physical workings of the material in our human bodies.

Not just us, life in all the forms that we've so far discovered.  Also, it's not ideologically limited to the physical, it's restricted to the physical because so far that's all we have evidence for.

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It is perfectly adequate to explain the working functions of the amazingly complex machinery which comprises our physical bodies, but it cannot be used to explain the derivation of our conscious thought processes, because there is no biological explanation for what comprises our conscious awareness of thoughts or how they work.

There is, you just don't like it.  Our conscious thought processes are part of that amazingly complex machinery which comprises our bodies, so far as we determine.  Again, if you've something that disproves that which amounts to more than 'but that would mean I'm a result of determinism' then by all means put it forward.

O.
Universes are forever, not just for creation...

New Atheism - because, apparently, there's a use-by date on unanswered questions.

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Alan Burns

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #39901 on: May 01, 2020, 11:59:43 AM »

You have no control over the person you are and the way you think, regardless - which is exactly the result of the past (unless there's randomness). You don't seem to have given this any thought at all...
On the contrary - I have given it a great deal of thought which brought me to the conclusion that such ability to think could not be driven entirely by the uncontrollable consequences of physical reactions alone.  I have the freedom to control rather than just react.  This makes "me". personally accountable for all my conscious thoughts, words or actions.  Your deterministic scenario would effectively exonerate us all from any guilt over anything we ever choose to do, because you claim we could not possibly have made any other choice.  This is not the reality we all live in.
The truth will set you free  - John 8:32
Truth is not an abstraction, but a person - Edith Stein
Free will, though it makes evil possible, is also the only thing that makes possible any love or goodness or joy worth having. - CS Lewis
Joy is the Gigantic Secret of Christians - GK Chesterton

ProfessorDavey

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #39902 on: May 01, 2020, 12:04:07 PM »
On the contrary - I have given it a great deal of thought which brought me to the conclusion that such ability to think could not be driven entirely by the uncontrollable consequences of physical reactions alone.
Who-ever says that physical reactions are uncontrollable - our whole physiology is based on an exquisitely controlled network of chemical reactions. But that control is entirely governed by fundamental physical properties and energetics.

torridon

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #39903 on: May 01, 2020, 12:20:42 PM »
On the contrary - I have given it a great deal of thought which brought me to the conclusion that such ability to think could not be driven entirely by the uncontrollable consequences of physical reactions alone.  I have the freedom to control rather than just react.  This makes "me". personally accountable for all my conscious thoughts, words or actions.  Your deterministic scenario would effectively exonerate us all from any guilt over anything we ever choose to do, because you claim we could not possibly have made any other choice.  This is not the reality we all live in.

AKA the illusion of free will.

However the reality I live in does not consist in being able to resolve a moment of choice by being able to choose which desire should be uppermost and I do not resolve beliefs by choosing which claims to find plausible.  Choice may seem free, but in the end, we are merely measuring things the relative strengths of which we have no control over in the moment.  A world in which we could choose our desires would make no sense.  Which is why your claims are ultimately non-sensical.
« Last Edit: May 01, 2020, 12:41:03 PM by torridon »

Stranger

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #39904 on: May 01, 2020, 12:22:32 PM »
On the contrary - I have given it a great deal of thought...

Why can't you come up with anything remotely like a rational argument, instead of the endless empty mantras, foot-stamping, baseless assertions, and an extensive collection of logical fallacies, then?

...which brought me to the conclusion that such ability to think could not be driven entirely by the uncontrollable consequences of physical reactions alone.

The "uncontrollable" is just you trying to redefine words again. The "physical" is a distraction or worse, a misrepresentation. Your conclusion is just an assertion.

I have the freedom to control rather than just react.

Meaningless.

This makes "me". personally accountable for all my conscious thoughts, words or actions.  Your deterministic scenario would effectively exonerate us all from any guilt over anything we ever choose to do, because you claim we could not possibly have made any other choice.  This is not the reality we all live in.

Rounding off with another (spurious) appeal to consequences fallacy. I'd really love to know why you just ignore fallacies when they are pointed out. Why? Do you think they don't apply to you? To your argument? What goes through your mind?

Once again you've totally ignored the fundamental contradiction in your position and produced nothing resembling rational thought or the logic you said you had.

Where is your logic?
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Gordon

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #39905 on: May 01, 2020, 12:23:14 PM »
Biology is just a label used to describe the physical workings of the material in our human bodies.  It is perfectly adequate to explain the working functions of the amazingly complex machinery which comprises our physical bodies, but it cannot be used to explain the derivation of our conscious thought processes, because there is no biological explanation for what comprises our conscious awareness of thoughts or how they work.

Yes there is: biology (whether you like it or not).

Alan Burns

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #39906 on: May 01, 2020, 02:26:24 PM »
Who-ever says that physical reactions are uncontrollable - our whole physiology is based on an exquisitely controlled network of chemical reactions. But that control is entirely governed by fundamental physical properties and energetics.
It depends what you mean by control.
Physical reactions are inevitable - we have no control over the laws of physics.
Yet we do have control over many aspects of our lives.  Some of this control may well be explained as instinctive reactions developed over many years of evolution, which may explain the control we observe in other animal species.  But to extrapolate these instinctive, physically driven reactions to explain all the consciously driven control we all display as human beings is somewhat optimistic to say the least.  What is the source of your own ability to exert control over your own posts?
The truth will set you free  - John 8:32
Truth is not an abstraction, but a person - Edith Stein
Free will, though it makes evil possible, is also the only thing that makes possible any love or goodness or joy worth having. - CS Lewis
Joy is the Gigantic Secret of Christians - GK Chesterton

ProfessorDavey

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #39907 on: May 01, 2020, 02:43:18 PM »
It depends what you mean by control.
Physical reactions are inevitable - we have no control over the laws of physics.
Getting it the wrong way around - we are the product of that exquisitely controlled physiology that is controlled by and dependent on physical processes and energetics.

Yet we do have control over many aspects of our lives.  Some of this control may well be explained as instinctive reactions developed over many years of evolution, which may explain the control we observe in other animal species.  But to extrapolate these instinctive, physically driven reactions to explain all the consciously driven control we all display as human beings is somewhat optimistic to say the least.  What is the source of your own ability to exert control over your own posts?
Not really - sure we don't understand everything about physiology of neuroscience to understand the full complexities of the human brain as it applies to consciousness - but we do understand the underlying processes associated with neural interaction and transmission of neural signals. There is no fundamental lack to our understanding - we merely need to gain more knowledge on complexity. To use an analogy, if you know how a computer works you have the fundamental understanding of how a really big and complex computer works even if the complexities of what it can (and cannot) do might remain unclear.

torridon

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #39908 on: May 01, 2020, 02:52:39 PM »
It depends what you mean by control.
Physical reactions are inevitable - we have no control over the laws of physics.
Yet we do have control over many aspects of our lives.  Some of this control may well be explained as instinctive reactions developed over many years of evolution, which may explain the control we observe in other animal species.  But to extrapolate these instinctive, physically driven reactions to explain all the consciously driven control we all display as human beings is somewhat optimistic to say the least.  What is the source of your own ability to exert control over your own posts?

I can control my finger, consciously, the same way an elephant can control its trunk, consciously.  We have the same base mammalian brain, we both have a limbic system mediating perception garnered through a network of sensor neurons triggering responsorial action via a network of motor neurons. Humans have a greater capacity for mental abstraction, but that is not magic, it comes courtesy of our extended neocortex.  Or maybe you think it all happens by magic, in which case our neocortex is redundant and should have disappeared long ago courtesy of the principle of the economy of nature.

ippy

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #39909 on: May 01, 2020, 03:58:04 PM »
Your imaginary hypothesis is irrelevant because it is a practical impossibility for "me" to exist as two identical entities.  Every soul is unique with its own personal power of free will.

And as I said, the conscious act of imagining such a hypothesis aptly demonstrates the conscious freedom we all enjoy.

Is that exactly as you were instructed by the person that
indoctrinated you on how to think Alan?

Commiserations to you Alan, ippy.

Alan Burns

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #39910 on: May 01, 2020, 06:07:39 PM »
To use an analogy, if you know how a computer works you have the fundamental understanding of how a really big and complex computer works even if the complexities of what it can (and cannot) do might remain unclear.
No matter how complex the programming, there can be no concept of free will in a computer because the self awareness needed to invoke an act of free will is not definable in computer code.  Man made machines attaining self awareness will remain in the annals of science fiction - they will never exist in real life because every event in a computer program is defined by the conscious will of the programmer, not the machine.
The truth will set you free  - John 8:32
Truth is not an abstraction, but a person - Edith Stein
Free will, though it makes evil possible, is also the only thing that makes possible any love or goodness or joy worth having. - CS Lewis
Joy is the Gigantic Secret of Christians - GK Chesterton

ProfessorDavey

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #39911 on: May 01, 2020, 06:09:42 PM »
No matter how complex the programming, there can be no concept of free will in a computer because the self awareness needed to invoke an act of free will is not definable in computer code.  Man made machines attaining self awareness will remain in the annals of science fiction - they will never exist in real life because every event in a computer program is defined by the conscious will of the programmer, not the machine.
What do you think artificial intelligence and machine learning are AB. I think you are way off the pace.

Alan Burns

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #39912 on: May 01, 2020, 06:15:54 PM »
What do you think artificial intelligence and machine learning are AB. I think you are way off the pace.
All entirely defined by the conscious will of programmers.  I have been developing computer software for the last fifty years.
The truth will set you free  - John 8:32
Truth is not an abstraction, but a person - Edith Stein
Free will, though it makes evil possible, is also the only thing that makes possible any love or goodness or joy worth having. - CS Lewis
Joy is the Gigantic Secret of Christians - GK Chesterton

Roses

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #39913 on: May 01, 2020, 06:19:11 PM »
All entirely defined by the conscious will of programmers.  I have been developing computer software for the last fifty years.

Blimey I didn't know computers were around in 1970!
"At the going down of the sun and in the morning we will remember them."

Stranger

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #39914 on: May 01, 2020, 06:22:35 PM »
No matter how complex the programming, there can be no concept of free will in a computer because the self awareness needed to invoke an act of free will is not definable in computer code.  Man made machines attaining self awareness will remain in the annals of science fiction - they will never exist in real life because every event in a computer program is defined by the conscious will of the programmer, not the machine.

Assert, assert, stamp foot...

Where is the logic you said you had?
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Nearly Sane

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #39915 on: May 01, 2020, 06:23:13 PM »
Blimey I didn't know computers were around in 1970!
Lot longer than that.

Nearly Sane

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #39916 on: May 01, 2020, 06:31:46 PM »
No matter how complex the programming, there can be no concept of free will in a computer because the self awareness needed to invoke an act of free will is not definable in computer code.  Man made machines attaining self awareness will remain in the annals of science fiction - they will never exist in real life because every event in a computer program is defined by the conscious will of the programmer, not the machine.
The issue here is not about computers getting AB's logically nonsensical idea of free will but that AB had a logically nonsensical view of free will.

ProfessorDavey

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #39917 on: May 01, 2020, 06:39:55 PM »
All entirely defined by the conscious will of programmers.  I have been developing computer software for the last fifty years.
If that is true then you will know that artificial intelligence and machine learning are determined by the computer, the machine itself, not the human programmer. Thats the whole point - the computer itself develops its own algorithms through its own learning to solve tasks.
« Last Edit: May 01, 2020, 06:42:33 PM by ProfessorDavey »

Nearly Sane

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #39918 on: May 01, 2020, 06:51:34 PM »
If that is true then you will know that artificial intelligence and machine learning are determined by the computer, the machine itself, not the human programmer. Thats the whole point - the computer itself develops its own algorithms through its own learning to solve tasks.
It's true. AB not having a pseudonym can be checked out but other than that you are right. AB though will see any of that as deterministic - now that he can't define anything in his idea of free will that moves beyond that coherently is the problem.
 
« Last Edit: May 01, 2020, 07:00:23 PM by Nearly Sane »

bluehillside Retd.

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #39919 on: May 01, 2020, 06:52:20 PM »
AB,

Quote
No matter how complex the programming, there can be no concept of free will in a computer because the self awareness needed to invoke an act of free will is not definable in computer code.  Man made machines attaining self awareness will remain in the annals of science fiction - they will never exist in real life because every event in a computer program is defined by the conscious will of the programmer, not the machine.

First, “there can be no concept of free will in a computer" is a just an unqualified assertion, not least because you have no idea how sophisticated at least in principle computers could become.

Second, you vastly underestimate first the complexity of brains and secondly the exponential increase in complex emergent properties even relatively small increases in processing ability confer. If you increase processing performance by, say, 10% you don’t get 10% more emergent properties – you get many times more. How else would you explain the huge differences between us and, say, Bonobos when we share around 98.7% of our DNA?

Third, for practical definitional purposes you are a "computer" (or actually a probability computational organism) – only a vastly more complex one than anything we can create for ourselves just now, and in case you hadn’t noticed our species isn't “man-made” either.

Fourth, the whole point about emergence as a phenomenon is that you can’t predict what effects the interactions of relatively simple instructions will produce. You’re horribly lost in the notion that a computer (or rather its software) can only duplicate what its programmer intended, but imagine if there were no such things as ants for example and you wrote a programme for them with the same functionality that ants actually have (“follow a trail of pheromone X to find food” for example). Imagine your surprise when from your very simple suite of instructions there emerged all the complex behaviours of ant colonies that had never even crossed your mind as possible outcomes. That’s the point you’re fundamentally misunderstanding here. 

Fifth, even if you want to conjure up an invisible little man at the controls despite the total absence of evidence or cogent logic for such thing, and then claim that this invisible little man somehow accesses a menu of wants our brains produce and then selects the preferred one, still that process of selection would itself be the result of a want. And your only way out of that would be to invent another, even smaller man at the controls to "drive" the first one. And your only way out of the same problem for that invisible even tinier man would be etc etc. It’s just your infinite regress problem again.

This is why when you’re asked for logic to support your assertions you can’t produce any. It’s not that it’s there but you don’t know what it is, it’s that there's no logic to support you at all. And that presumably explains your indifference to relying solely on either silence when asked for it, on unqualified assertions, or on one or several basic logical fallacies.

Face it Alan – you’re dead in the water here. Share your faith beliefs in the appropriate place if you want to, but you have no place among thinking and reasoning people if you expect your claims and assertions to be taken seriously.       
« Last Edit: May 01, 2020, 08:22:51 PM by bluehillside Retd. »
"Don't make me come down there."

God

Alan Burns

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #39920 on: May 01, 2020, 08:21:05 PM »
If that is true then you will know that artificial intelligence and machine learning are determined by the computer, the machine itself, not the human programmer. Thats the whole point - the computer itself develops its own algorithms through its own learning to solve tasks.
No.
They are determined by the algorithms designed by the computer programmer.  They do precisely what they are designed to do.  It is certainly possible to mimic human behaviour or surpass the limits of human intelligence by intelligently developed software, but you will never be able to program the self awareness needed to enable consciously driven acts of will.

regards
Dr Alan Burns BSc Phd MBCS CEng CITP
The truth will set you free  - John 8:32
Truth is not an abstraction, but a person - Edith Stein
Free will, though it makes evil possible, is also the only thing that makes possible any love or goodness or joy worth having. - CS Lewis
Joy is the Gigantic Secret of Christians - GK Chesterton

Nearly Sane

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #39921 on: May 01, 2020, 08:24:50 PM »
No.
They are determined by the algorithms designed by the computer programmer.  They do precisely what they are designed to do.  It is certainly possible to mimic human behaviour or surpass the limits of human intelligence by intelligently developed software, but you will never be able to program the self awareness needed to enable consciously driven acts of will.

regards
Dr Alan Burns BSc Phd MBCS CEng CITP
None of your qualifications allow you any authority to make that statement. That you don't understand that shows the limit of your thinking.

bluehillside Retd.

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #39922 on: May 01, 2020, 08:25:13 PM »
AB,

Quote
No.
They are determined by the algorithms designed by the computer programmer.  They do precisely what they are designed to do.  It is certainly possible to mimic human behaviour or surpass the limits of human intelligence by intelligently developed software, but you will never be able to program the self awareness needed to enable consciously driven acts of will.

Again, you fail to demonstrate even a basic grasp of the phenomenon of emergence. Why not at least read something about it before you fall over again?

Quote
regards
Dr Alan Burns BSc Phd MBCS CEng CITP

I'd ask for my tuition fees back if I were you.
"Don't make me come down there."

God

ProfessorDavey

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #39923 on: May 01, 2020, 08:43:36 PM »
No.
They are determined by the algorithms designed by the computer programmer.  They do precisely what they are designed to do.  It is certainly possible to mimic human behaviour or surpass the limits of human intelligence by intelligently developed software, but you will never be able to program the self awareness needed to enable consciously driven acts of will.

regards
Dr Alan Burns BSc Phd MBCS CEng CITP
Rubbish - the whole point about machine learning is that the computer develops new algorithms automatically through experience to optimise and improve on the performance of the tasks. The algorithm that the computer is ultimately using is devised by the computer itself, not by the human programmer. That's the whole point. From the first line of the Wiki page on machine learning:

'Machine learning (ML) is the study of computer algorithms that improve automatically through experience. - my emphasis

ProfessorDavey - Professor, BSc, MA, PhD (and author of successful institutional application to join the Alan Turing Institute - the UK's National Institute for Data Science and Artificial Intelligence)


Gordon

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #39924 on: May 01, 2020, 08:47:46 PM »
No.
They are determined by the algorithms designed by the computer programmer.  They do precisely what they are designed to do.  It is certainly possible to mimic human behaviour or surpass the limits of human intelligence by intelligently developed software, but you will never be able to program the self awareness needed to enable consciously driven acts of will.

regards
Dr Alan Burns BSc Phd MBCS CEng CITP

So, does this list indicate that you are suitably qualified to pronounce on "the self awareness needed to enable consciously driven acts of will', which sounds awfully like the domains of neurology and/or psychology, or the influence of alleged 'souls' on biological processes, which doesn't seem to fit the domain of computer science?

I suspect you may be blowing your own trumpet just a little too loudly.