Author Topic: Searching for GOD...  (Read 3880069 times)

bluehillside Retd.

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #39925 on: May 01, 2020, 08:49:02 PM »
Prof,

Quote
Rubbish - the whole point about machine learning is that the computer develops new algorithms automatically through experience to optimise and improve on the performance of the tasks. The algorithm that the computer is ultimately using is devised by the computer itself, not by the human programmer. That's the whole point. From the first line of the Wiki page on machine learning:

'Machine learning (ML) is the study of computer algorithms that improve automatically through experience. - my emphasis

Quite so.

Bluehillside (Red trunks badge for 25 yards breaststroke; class milk monitor three years running - Moss Hill Juniors (my alma mater)). 
"Don't make me come down there."

God

Sebastian Toe

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #39926 on: May 01, 2020, 08:50:59 PM »
Every soul is unique with its own personal power of free will.

Excellent.
Will you use your soul's unique power and share with the members here what it is like to exist in a timeless place?
I seem to recall that you assert, your soul resides in a timeless realm, only experiencing time when it visits our physical universe, in order to make some free-will decisions.
Please use your free will to describe to me what it is like, residing in a timeless place.
What do you feel, experience there?
Use your time here to give an insight as to that existence?
For example, there must be some sort of volume there because there will be billions if other souls existing alongside yours. Are you aware if them?
Are the souls of the people yet to be born there?
 If not, where could they possibly be?
Do the souls of those who die move somewhere else? If so, where and how?
So many questions.

It would be really fascinating to see your description of your experience of that place.
"The word God is for me nothing more than the expression and product of human weaknesses, the Bible a collection of honourable, but still primitive legends.'
Albert Einstein

Nearly Sane

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #39927 on: May 01, 2020, 08:51:49 PM »
So, does this list indicate that you are suitably qualified to pronounce on "the self awareness needed to enable consciously driven acts of will', which sounds awfully like the domains of neurology and/or psychology, or the influence of alleged 'souls' on biological processes, which doesn't seem to fit the domain of computer science?

I suspect you may be blowing your own trumpet just a little too loudly.
I believe 1 in 20 men are able to blow their own trumpet. 

Stranger

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #39928 on: May 01, 2020, 08:54:31 PM »
regards
Dr Alan Burns BSc Phd MBCS CEng CITP

Then you should be ashamed of yourself for your intellectual dishonesty, your misrepresentation of other people's arguments, your repeated refusal to engage with reasoning, your mindless repetition of "points" that have been answered countless times before, and your pretense at having logic that you are totally unable to produce.

How about trying engage with people here as the person who gained those qualifications, instead of the endless, mindless, pointless repetition of some script you thought up years ago and can't bring yourself to question?
x(∅ ∈ x ∧ ∀y(yxy ∪ {y} ∈ x))

Enki

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #39929 on: May 01, 2020, 09:12:59 PM »
No.
They are determined by the algorithms designed by the computer programmer.  They do precisely what they are designed to do.  It is certainly possible to mimic human behaviour or surpass the limits of human intelligence by intelligently developed software, but you will never be able to program the self awareness needed to enable consciously driven acts of will.

regards
Dr Alan Burns BSc Phd MBCS CEng CITP

You tried this before when you immediately announced yourself as a member of MENSA I believe. That didn't cut any ice. Now, it seems, you think that your qualifications, especially in the area of computer science,  should automatically gain you some sort of respect. I'm afraid it doesn't work like that. Ultimately what your train of thinking in your posts is what counts, and as they are often a mix of misrepresentations, repetitious assertions(without any attention paid to evidence), logical ineptitude, word distortion, avoidance of awkward questions and straightforward proselytising, you don't exactly come over very well.  :-[
Sometimes I wish my first word was 'quote,' so that on my death bed, my last words could be 'end quote.'
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ProfessorDavey

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #39930 on: May 01, 2020, 09:38:46 PM »
Dr Alan Burns BSc Phd MBCS CEng CITP
MBCS - hardly a great professional accolade is it Alan - with a degree all you need to have done is to have working in any role in IT and to pay your £146 per year.

Nearly Sane

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #39931 on: May 01, 2020, 09:40:11 PM »
MBCS - hardly a great professional accolade is it Alan - with a degree all you need to have done is to have working in any role in IT and to pay your £146 per year.
Is this the room for the pissing contest?

ProfessorDavey

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #39932 on: May 01, 2020, 09:45:08 PM »
Is this the room for the pissing contest?
Do join ;D

I do have a bit of a thing against people who add a whole bunch of letters after their names which are, in effect, meaningless as they are basically paid-for memberships for anyone in a profession with no meaningful accolade or esteem associated with them.

Nearly Sane

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #39933 on: May 01, 2020, 09:46:17 PM »
Do join ;D

I do have a bit of a thing against people who add a whole bunch of letters after their names which are, in effect, meaningless as they are basically paid-for memberships for anyone in a profession with no meaningful accolade or esteem associated with them.
None of the letters matter other than those in the argument.

bluehillside Retd.

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #39934 on: May 01, 2020, 09:51:41 PM »
NS,

Quote
Is this the room for the pissing contest?

If it is, I’m thinking my 25 yard breaststroke award might come in handy.

So who’s the smart one now eh?
"Don't make me come down there."

God

Nearly Sane

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #39935 on: May 01, 2020, 09:53:42 PM »
NS,

If it is, I’m thinking my 25 yard breaststroke award might come in handy.

So who’s the smart one now eh?

That made me laugh

ProfessorDavey

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #39936 on: May 01, 2020, 09:55:10 PM »
NS,

If it is, I’m thinking my 25 yard breaststroke award might come in handy.
And you probably didn't have to pay for that one ... although your mum might have done ;)

bluehillside Retd.

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #39937 on: May 01, 2020, 10:07:30 PM »
Prof,

Quote
And you probably didn't have to pay for that one ... although your mum might have done ;)

Not sure if money changed hands, but I do remember that she sewed the red badge onto my trunks...

What's odd about AB and his (apparent) string of qualifications is that, presumably, some of them at least require the candidate to be capable of rational thought, yet he seems entirely unable (or unwilling) to grasp even the fundamentals of rhetorical logic. Not only does his thinking betray fallacy after error, he just doesn't care about that. I guess he thinks that so long as it's done for Jesus he can spout any old bollocks and somehow it counts as argument, which is testament I think to the damage religious belief can sometimes wreak on an otherwise functioning mind. But for his wilful obduracy I might actually feel a bit sorry for him.       
"Don't make me come down there."

God

ProfessorDavey

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #39938 on: May 01, 2020, 10:51:19 PM »
Not sure if money changed hands, but I do remember that she sewed the red badge onto my trunks...
Having had three kids that have gone through cubs, scouts etc (one boys, one girl) I've often wondered why the only badge that doesn't seem to exist is the sewing badge. They should do that one first and they they can sew all the other ruddy ones on themselves.

Roses

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #39939 on: May 02, 2020, 08:31:47 AM »
Having had three kids that have gone through cubs, scouts etc (one boys, one girl) I've often wondered why the only badge that doesn't seem to exist is the sewing badge. They should do that one first and they they can sew all the other ruddy ones on themselves.

Guides don't have a woodwork badge as far as I know, do Scouts? Our eldest girl was brilliant at woodwork, top of the class in fact, but hopeless at sewing, which was the only Guide badge she didn't get. I had to sew them all on for her! ::)
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Alan Burns

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #39940 on: May 02, 2020, 11:44:15 AM »
Rubbish - the whole point about machine learning is that the computer develops new algorithms automatically through experience to optimise and improve on the performance of the tasks. The algorithm that the computer is ultimately using is devised by the computer itself, not by the human programmer. That's the whole point. From the first line of the Wiki page on machine learning:

'Machine learning (ML) is the study of computer algorithms that improve automatically through experience. - my emphasis

ProfessorDavey - Professor, BSc, MA, PhD (and author of successful institutional application to join the Alan Turing Institute - the UK's National Institute for Data Science and Artificial Intelligence)
The machines do what they are programmed to do.  The data produced by a computer has no meaning to the computer itself.  Meaning only exists in the conscious perception of human observers.  Machines do not learn - they just produce reactions to data.  The concept of leaning exists in human minds, not in the computer.

For my PhD I did research into new methods of computer aided optimisation.  I took the credit for the results - not the computer.
« Last Edit: May 02, 2020, 11:48:20 AM by Alan Burns »
The truth will set you free  - John 8:32
Truth is not an abstraction, but a person - Edith Stein
Free will, though it makes evil possible, is also the only thing that makes possible any love or goodness or joy worth having. - CS Lewis
Joy is the Gigantic Secret of Christians - GK Chesterton

torridon

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #39941 on: May 02, 2020, 11:55:47 AM »
The machines do what they are programmed to do.  The data produced by a computer has no meaning to the computer itself.  Meaning only exists in the conscious perception of human observers.  Machines do not learn - they just produce reactions to data.  The concept of leaning exists in human minds, not in the computer.

That is merely a narrow human-centric interpretation of what learning means.  Google Translate for instance has learned to translate languages, without being 'conscious'.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Learning#Machine_learning

Alan Burns

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #39942 on: May 02, 2020, 12:09:02 PM »
That is merely a narrow human-centric interpretation of what learning means.  Google Translate for instance has learned to translate languages, without being 'conscious'.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Learning#Machine_learning
The concept of "learning" only exists in the minds of conscious observers, not in the computer.
The truth will set you free  - John 8:32
Truth is not an abstraction, but a person - Edith Stein
Free will, though it makes evil possible, is also the only thing that makes possible any love or goodness or joy worth having. - CS Lewis
Joy is the Gigantic Secret of Christians - GK Chesterton

torridon

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #39943 on: May 02, 2020, 12:26:39 PM »
The concept of "learning" only exists in the minds of conscious observers, not in the computer.

So ? the concept of photosynthesis only exists in human minds, does that mean that green plants are not growing ?

bluehillside Retd.

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #39944 on: May 02, 2020, 01:07:42 PM »
AB,

Quote
The machines do what they are programmed to do.

Like an ant would you mean if its basic functions had been programmed? Predictably you've just ignored the explanations I've given you, but the point remains that relatively simple constituent parts interacting with each other will produce emergent properties the programmer never intended or even envisaged.

Quote
The data produced by a computer has no meaning to the computer itself.

Because, so far at least, no computers we've built have had anywhere near the complexity of brains. So what?

Quote
Meaning only exists in the conscious perception of human observers.  Machines do not learn - they just produce reactions to data.  The concept of leaning exists in human minds, not in the computer.

No, machines can "learn" in the sense that collaboratively they can produce results that weren't encoded in their programming. Imagine for example that there was no such thing as sodium or as chlorine, and that you wrote wrote perfect designs for each and had them manufactured. Neither sodium nor chlorine are salty, but imagine too that they bonded to produce - yes, sodium chloride (ie salt). There's nothing in either chemical that's salty, yet together they produce saltiness - thus saltiness is an emergent property of interacting constituent components neither of which are themselves salty.       

Now scale that up to, say, termites - what remarkable emergent properties do they display do you think that no individual termite acting alone can produce?

Now scale that up again to people and the 100 trillion plus synapses our brains have interacting at warp speed. Why on earth would you not think it perfectly reasonable to conclude that consciousness is likely an emergent property of that vast, unfathomable complexity?

Quote
For my PhD I did research into new methods of computer aided optimisation.  I took the credit for the results - not the computer.

No doubt, and yet you seem utterly incapable of following even simple arguments in logic. Why is that?
"Don't make me come down there."

God

ippy

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #39945 on: May 02, 2020, 01:40:11 PM »
And you probably didn't have to pay for that one ... although your mum might have done ;)

Just take school open days for an example when your children were still school age, it's an opportunity to meet some really well qualified people with degrees in all sorts and yet some of them in spite of all of their education have managed to remain completely ignorant, unable to put all of their many, in some cases, qualifications together and use them to any good effect; effectively educated and ignorant.   

Stranger

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #39946 on: May 02, 2020, 01:58:29 PM »
Machines do not learn - they just produce reactions to data.

No, Alan, you do not get to redefine words to suit your arguments. That's called a definist or persuasive definition fallacy. Machines do learn, as do non-human animals.
x(∅ ∈ x ∧ ∀y(yxy ∪ {y} ∈ x))

torridon

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #39947 on: May 02, 2020, 02:35:04 PM »
wow, that's a new one on me.

Maybe he's got an A-Z book of fallacies and is working his way through them, like some sort of bucket list, ticking them off one by one as he goes.  Who'd a thought there could be so many ways of being wrong ? yet Alan seems to wheedle them out so effortlessly.
« Last Edit: May 02, 2020, 02:38:16 PM by torridon »

ProfessorDavey

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #39948 on: May 02, 2020, 10:21:03 PM »
The concept of "learning" only exists in the minds of conscious observers, not in the computer.
No it doesn't - the manner by which computers learn via machine learning is effectively exactly the same as we do. In other word via a process of 'directed' learning, in other words with direct input from a teacher (in the case of the computer a programmer) and then through independent learning - without external input being able to assimilate and learn from information available to the computer.

ProfessorDavey

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #39949 on: May 02, 2020, 10:30:55 PM »
The machines do what they are programmed to do.
Not when there is machine learning - the computer enhances and optimises its algorithms and programmes completely independently of a human programmer. The original human programmer has no idea what the computer will develop via that process.

The data produced by a computer has no meaning to the computer itself.
Non-sense - with AI and machine learning the data produced by the computer has huge meaning as it is used by the computer itself to optimise and improve its functioning.

Machines do not learn - they just produce reactions to data.  The concept of leaning exists in human minds, not in the computer.
Rubbish - learning clearly exists in complex computational processes in a manner totally independent of programmer input. And of course learning existing in many other non human species.

For my PhD I did research into new methods of computer aided optimisation.  I took the credit for the results - not the computer.
I bet you did. But if you were an expert in AI and machine learning (you are clearly not) you'd recognise that the computer is working independently of you.

Personally, I'm no expert in AI and machine learning but I have colleagues who are world leading experts (do you?) and I am well acquainted with the working of the UK's leading research institute in this area (The Turing) and indeed wrote the application for our institution to join this prestigious institute in my previous role as Dean for Research in Science & Engineering at a Russell group University.