Author Topic: Searching for GOD...  (Read 3886206 times)

torridon

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #40225 on: May 15, 2020, 05:59:37 AM »
The words "blood flow and pressure" are consciously conceived labels describing what is collectively perceived from an external observation.  Internally it is just physical elements reacting with each other.  It is not the consciously conceived labels which produce what you describe as feedback.  What these human labels amount to are terms describing what are simply chains of cause and effect acting in accordance with the laws of physics.  To get any "feedback" there needs to be a means of physical interaction between the perceived entities, not just one way.  In the case of conscious awareness, the concept of it being an emergent property of physical brain activity does not explain how any physical interaction can be generated from what is presumed to be an emergent property and the material reactions generating it.

So you didn't read Prof's post then ?  You seem to imagine that blood circulation systems did not function before humans came to study and understand it. You seem to keep confusing phenomena with our description of said phenomena. Water has always been wet long before humans developed language to describe it as thus. Do you imagine that rivers only started running downhill when humans evolved to wonder at them ?

torridon

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #40226 on: May 15, 2020, 06:12:12 AM »

So in this scenario, the emergent property of conscious awareness can give no survival advantage to the physically determined model from which it emerges, which puts into question how or why the property of conscious awareness came into existence within the evolutionary process.

The reality we perceive, however, indicates a much different role for conscious awareness in which there is a two way exchange of information between conscious awareness and the material brain.   For example our ability to consciously invoke and control the thought processes needed to derive and verify logical analyses and draw viable conclusions requires more than just a spectator role.  As indicated above, there is no mechanism in the physical model for conscious awareness to operate this two way exchange of information, leading to a conclusion that in reality, conscious awareness comprises more than just an emergent property of physical reactions.

You seem very confused about this. Consciousness evolved and has been widely conserved because it offered survival advantages to organisms.  It is involved in two way information flows - perception leads to response.  An unconscious gazelle would not perceive a lion creeping up on it and so would end up as the lion's lunch.  A conscious gazelle on the other hand will take evasive action thanks to its better awareness.
« Last Edit: May 15, 2020, 06:46:58 AM by torridon »

Outrider

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #40227 on: May 15, 2020, 08:13:20 AM »
I am told that conscious awareness is an emergent property of physical reactions.

Ok.

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Emergent properties are determined by physical reactions...

Not inherently - you could have an emergent behaviour from some other interactions, but you'd need to show that such interactions were happening.

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...and in the physical model there is no mechanism for the emergent property of conscious awareness to have any influence over the reactions from which it emerges.

Uh... why?  Where does this understanding come from? If consciousness is an emergent property of physical actions, it becomes another cause which can have measurable and consistent effects, there's nothing in the nature of emergent properties that somehow excludes them from this.

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This reduces the property of conscious awareness to be just a spectator of the consequences to the reactions from which it emerges.

It's not the idea that it's an emergent behaviour that does this, it's the nature of cause and effect.  If you want to break out of this model then you need to explain in what way consciousness - whether physical or not - transcends the cause and effect model of activity.

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So in this scenario, the emergent property of conscious awareness can give no survival advantage to the physically determined model from which it emerges, which puts into question how or why the property of conscious awareness came into existence within the evolutionary process.

OK, so wrong on both parts.  Consciousness as an emergent property arises because of the interaction of other evolved traits which themselves provided a survival or reproductive benefit at some point.  Since then, the action of consciousness on our behaviour has changed the way we operate such that it subsequently has provided us with a competitive advantage against other animals in our ecosystems.

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The reality we perceive, however, indicates a much different role for conscious awareness in which there is a two way exchange of information between conscious awareness and the material brain.

Nothing in the physical model of consciousness or the idea that consciousness is an emergent property restricts the activity of consciousness to a one-way flow of data or information - indeed, feedback loops are intrinsic to the modern understanding of consciousness and brain activity in general.  That these individual neuronal activities occur faster than conscious thought, and 'behind the scenes' as it were, means that our perception of them isn't a reliable guide to what's actually going on.  In evolutionary terms, it's outside of the activity range our brains have evolved to deal with, and so we have to be at least sceptical of our instinctive impressions.

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For example our ability to consciously invoke and control the thought processes needed to derive and verify logical analyses and draw viable conclusions requires more than just a spectator role.

Except that the fact you FEEL like 'you' are in control doesn't mean that's actually the case when you look at the architecture and the biophysics.

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As indicated above, there is no mechanism in the physical model for conscious awareness to operate this two way exchange of information, leading to a conclusion that in reality, conscious awareness comprises more than just an emergent property of physical reactions.

No, it wasn't 'indicated' it was asserted, and wrongly asserted at that.

None of which addresses the fundamental flaw you have in the conception that you're attempting to put forward as an alternative: what's the third path between/around deterministic activity and random activity which frees consciousness from absolute dependence upon prior events whilst maintaining a non-random nature in order to constitute will?

O.
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Stranger

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #40228 on: May 15, 2020, 08:26:23 AM »
I am told that conscious awareness is an emergent property of physical reactions.  Emergent properties are determined by physical reactions, and in the physical model there is no mechanism for the emergent property of conscious awareness to have any influence over the reactions from which it emerges.  This reduces the property of conscious awareness to be just a spectator of the consequences to the reactions from which it emerges.

So in this scenario, the emergent property of conscious awareness can give no survival advantage to the physically determined model from which it emerges, which puts into question how or why the property of conscious awareness came into existence within the evolutionary process.

As others have pointed out, this is total bollocks and shows zero understanding of what emergence means.

The reality we perceive, however, indicates a much different role for conscious awareness in which there is a two way exchange of information between conscious awareness and the material brain.

We don't perceive any such thing, we just experience being aware of things, thinking, and acting on them, all of which is fully compatible with a deterministic system. Regardless of that, how it feels to us is not a logical argument.

And none of this nonsense actually addresses the logical contradiction in your own position - which has nothing to do with consciousness at all.
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Gordon

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #40229 on: May 15, 2020, 08:45:35 AM »
Alan

All your waffle reduces to this: you have an intrinsic personal need to deny that conscious awareness/consciousness is an emergent property and a natural aspect of how our biology operates because if you ever accepted that this is what the evidence indicates you would have then immediately falsified your own notion of 'God'.

Your denial may protect your faith beliefs but only at the cost of shielding you from the knowledge and logic that shows you are most likely wrong.






Stranger

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #40230 on: May 15, 2020, 09:08:56 AM »
An emergent property is not in itself a physical entity, therefore is has no means of physically inducing any feedback to the reactions which produce it.

It's staggering that you (apparently) couldn't even be arsed to google it and read a few articles about the subject. A hurricane is an emergent structure, so I guess all those people who board up their windows and shelter from them are just being silly because it's not a "physical entity"?

For that matter, the whole of chemistry is emergent properties; electrons, neutrons, and protons don't have any chemical properties.
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SusanDoris

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #40231 on: May 15, 2020, 09:47:51 AM »
I am told that conscious awareness is an emergent property of physical reactions.  Emergent properties are determined by physical reactions, and in the physical model there is no mechanism for the emergent property of conscious awareness to have any influence over the reactions from which it emerges.  This reduces the property of conscious awareness to be just a spectator of the consequences to the reactions from which it emerges.

So in this scenario, the emergent property of conscious awareness can give no survival advantage to the physically determined model from which it emerges, which puts into question how or why the property of conscious awareness came into existence within the evolutionary process.

The reality we perceive, however, indicates a much different role for conscious awareness in which there is a two way exchange of information between conscious awareness and the material brain.   For example our ability to consciously invoke and control the thought processes needed to derive and verify logical analyses and draw viable conclusions requires more than just a spectator role.  As indicated above, there is no mechanism in the physical model for conscious awareness to operate this two way exchange of information, leading to a conclusion that in reality, conscious awareness comprises more than just an emergent property of physical reactions.
How anyone can produce such huge amounts of meaningless drivel with never a hint of any logic or rational reasoning is anybody's guess. I wouldn't have beluieved it could be done, but your posts show that it can.
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Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #40232 on: May 15, 2020, 09:52:19 AM »
How anyone can produce such huge amounts of meaningless drivel with never a hint of any logic or rational reasoning is anybody's guess. I wouldn't have beluieved it could be done, but your posts show that it can.
This post sounds like an exercise in hyperbolics...…..with the emphasis on the Bolics.

Roses

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #40233 on: May 15, 2020, 10:34:45 AM »
How anyone can produce such huge amounts of meaningless drivel with never a hint of any logic or rational reasoning is anybody's guess. I wouldn't have beluieved it could be done, but your posts show that it can.

I think he enjoys being a WUM and winding people up.
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Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #40234 on: May 15, 2020, 10:36:25 AM »
I think he enjoys being a WUM and winding people up.
I think you enjoy being a WUM.

Roses

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #40235 on: May 15, 2020, 10:40:00 AM »
I think you enjoy being a WUM.

I rest my case! ::)
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Nearly Sane

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #40236 on: May 15, 2020, 10:46:05 AM »
I think he enjoys being a WUM and winding people up.
Alan Burns seems perfectly sincere to me.

Outrider

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #40237 on: May 15, 2020, 10:54:55 AM »
Alan Burns seems perfectly sincere to me.

I concur. I've said it before, whilst I disagree with much of what Alan believes, I think it's unfair to impugn his motives.  He's here because he thinks he has an insight, and he thinks its in our best interests to hear it, understand it and accept.   He's wrong, but he's not ill-intentioned.

O.
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SusanDoris

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #40238 on: May 15, 2020, 11:13:27 AM »
Alan Burns seems perfectly sincere to me.
Yes, but to see that after the number of posts here, he still does not answer any questions or try to defend his round-in-circles responses with anything other than more of the same is, in my opinion, a sad reflection on his inability to do so; and of course on his indoctrination.
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Alan Burns

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #40239 on: May 15, 2020, 11:59:55 AM »
It's staggering that you (apparently) couldn't even be arsed to google it and read a few articles about the subject. A hurricane is an emergent structure, so I guess all those people who board up their windows and shelter from them are just being silly because it's not a "physical entity"?

For that matter, the whole of chemistry is emergent properties; electrons, neutrons, and protons don't have any chemical properties.
The emergent property is the name we give to a perceived functionality or pattern.  The name describes the collective behaviour of the material activity we perceive.  The name is not the activity, it is just a label.   The problem with conscious awareness is that we are applying a name "conscious awareness" to an activity we are unable to perceive.  No one has perceived the activity which defines conscious awareness.  We all experience conscious awareness, but we can't actually perceive what it is.  So in effect we are trying to categorise something as an emergent property without actually knowing what it is or how it manifests.  All we know is that there is some physical brain activity associated with conscious awareness, but this association is not sufficient to be able to define conscious awareness as an emergent property of the perceived brain activity.
« Last Edit: May 15, 2020, 12:17:32 PM by Alan Burns »
The truth will set you free  - John 8:32
Truth is not an abstraction, but a person - Edith Stein
Free will, though it makes evil possible, is also the only thing that makes possible any love or goodness or joy worth having. - CS Lewis
Joy is the Gigantic Secret of Christians - GK Chesterton

Alan Burns

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #40240 on: May 15, 2020, 12:08:12 PM »
You seem very confused about this. Consciousness evolved and has been widely conserved because it offered survival advantages to organisms.  It is involved in two way information flows - perception leads to response.  An unconscious gazelle would not perceive a lion creeping up on it and so would end up as the lion's lunch.  A conscious gazelle on the other hand will take evasive action thanks to its better awareness.
Once more you are confusing instinctive programmed reactions to sensory data with conscious awareness.  Externally observed reactions do not necessarily prove internal conscious awareness.  It is possible to mimic animal behaviour, or even human behaviour with programmed software, but conscious awareness does not exist within the program.
The truth will set you free  - John 8:32
Truth is not an abstraction, but a person - Edith Stein
Free will, though it makes evil possible, is also the only thing that makes possible any love or goodness or joy worth having. - CS Lewis
Joy is the Gigantic Secret of Christians - GK Chesterton

torridon

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #40241 on: May 15, 2020, 12:16:43 PM »
Once more you are confusing instinctive programmed reactions to sensory data with conscious awareness.  Externally observed reactions do not necessarily prove internal conscious awareness.  It is possible to mimic animal behaviour, or even human behaviour with programmed software, but conscious awareness does not exist within the program.

Oh come off it Alan.  If a creature has eyes and it appears to be able to see, it is reasonable to assume it is having visual experience.  It it has ears and it appears to hear things, it is reasonable to assume it is having auditory experience. What other explanation could there be for how it seems to be able to see and hear ?

Stranger

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #40242 on: May 15, 2020, 12:28:27 PM »
The emergent property is the name we give to a perceived functionality or pattern.  The name describes the collective activity of the material activity we perceive.  The name is not the activity, it is just a label.

Both obvious and totally irrelevant.

The problem with conscious awareness is that we are applying a name "conscious awareness" to an activity we are unable to perceive.  No one has perceived the activity which defines conscious awareness.  We all experience conscious awareness, but we can't actually perceive what it is.

This is a contradictory mess, even for you.

So in effect we are trying to categorise something as an emergent property without actually knowing what it is or how it manifests.  All we know is that there is some physical brain activity associated with conscious awareness, but this association is not sufficient to be able to define conscious awareness as an emergent property of the perceived brain activity.

Now we get the staggering double standards again. There is abundant evidence that consciousness emerges from complex brain activity, even if we don't know exactly how it happens. Here is an interesting article about just how closely consciousness relates to particular parts of the physical brain: What Is Consciousness?

Compare and contrast with your claims that are self-contradictory and involve something for which we have no evidence whatsoever.

So you still haven't managed to defend your own claim of the logical impossibility of a physical explanation, nor have you addressed to obvious contradiction in your own claims (that has nothing directly to do with consciousness at all).

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Alan Burns

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #40243 on: May 15, 2020, 12:48:04 PM »
Oh come off it Alan.  If a creature has eyes and it appears to be able to see, it is reasonable to assume it is having visual experience.  It it has ears and it appears to hear things, it is reasonable to assume it is having auditory experience. What other explanation could there be for how it seems to be able to see and hear ?
All we know is that is is reacting to a particular image pattern or to a particular pattern of vibrating air molecules.  Reactions do not prove conscious awareness.

In evolutionary theory, reactions to sensory data are all that is needed to incur survival advantage.  Conscious awareness provides what may be classed as a buffer zone where information can be consciously perceived before it is reacted to.  This in effect is what allows human beings to be able to choose how to react rather than just be driven by instinctive reactions or learnt experiences.
The truth will set you free  - John 8:32
Truth is not an abstraction, but a person - Edith Stein
Free will, though it makes evil possible, is also the only thing that makes possible any love or goodness or joy worth having. - CS Lewis
Joy is the Gigantic Secret of Christians - GK Chesterton

Stranger

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #40244 on: May 15, 2020, 01:00:44 PM »
All we know is that is is reacting to a particular image pattern or to a particular pattern of vibrating air molecules.  Reactions do not prove conscious awareness.

In evolutionary theory, reactions to sensory data are all that is needed to incur survival advantage.  Conscious awareness provides what may be classed as a buffer zone where information can be consciously perceived before it is reacted to.  This in effect is what allows human beings to be able to choose how to react rather than just be driven by instinctive reactions or learnt experiences.

You're still simply ignoring all the evidence and ignoring the self-contradictory nature of your own assertions.

Where is the first hint of any reason to think that consciousness isn't part of a (very complex) process that reacts to stimuli according to instinct (nature) and learning (nurture and experience)?

Where is the first hint of any reason to think that being able to have done differently is required for anything humans do?

Where is the first hint of an resolution to the contradiction that if we could have done differently it couldn't be for any reason, so must involve a random component, which you deny?
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Sebastian Toe

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #40245 on: May 15, 2020, 01:13:47 PM »
No one has perceived the activity which defines conscious awareness.  We all experience conscious awareness, but we can't actually perceive what it is.
Has anyone perceived the activity which defines the soul's awareness?
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torridon

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #40246 on: May 15, 2020, 01:41:03 PM »
All we know is that is is reacting to a particular image pattern or to a particular pattern of vibrating air molecules.  Reactions do not prove conscious awareness.

In evolutionary theory, reactions to sensory data are all that is needed to incur survival advantage.  Conscious awareness provides what may be classed as a buffer zone where information can be consciously perceived before it is reacted to.  This in effect is what allows human beings to be able to choose how to react rather than just be driven by instinctive reactions or learnt experiences.

Eerm, just because other creatures do not consider abstract problems or contemplate things at length does not imply they are unconscious.  An unconscious gazelle would be on its back, oblivious to the world.  If it is up, and wake, and running around, it is conscious, it is having sensory experience and responding to that.  Consciousness is not defined in terms of abstract contemplation, I think I've had to point this out to you before, please stop mixing different things up, it only creates confusion.

Having clarified that, hopefully for the last time, there are other creatures whose cognitive functioning goes well beyond simplistic reactions.  Bird song is an example, it was recently discovered that birds do not merely sing robotically, but rather continually adjust their songs depending on other songs they are hearing.  In other words, they are thinking about it, not just reacting, not just repeating songs their mother taught them.

Alan Burns

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #40247 on: May 15, 2020, 03:30:16 PM »
Eerm, just because other creatures do not consider abstract problems or contemplate things at length does not imply they are unconscious.  An unconscious gazelle would be on its back, oblivious to the world.  If it is up, and wake, and running around, it is conscious, it is having sensory experience and responding to that.  Consciousness is not defined in terms of abstract contemplation, I think I've had to point this out to you before, please stop mixing different things up, it only creates confusion.

Having clarified that, hopefully for the last time, there are other creatures whose cognitive functioning goes well beyond simplistic reactions.  Bird song is an example, it was recently discovered that birds do not merely sing robotically, but rather continually adjust their songs depending on other songs they are hearing.  In other words, they are thinking about it, not just reacting, not just repeating songs their mother taught them.
The presumption that conscious awareness exists in other creatures cannot be used to explain what conscious awareness comprises or how it works. This is just a distraction.  My own personal belief remains that animals do not experience the conscious awareness of humans.  However animals are also God's creation.  You are free to believe that animals have been gifted with the same attributes of free will and conscious awareness as humans if you wish.
« Last Edit: May 15, 2020, 04:04:51 PM by Alan Burns »
The truth will set you free  - John 8:32
Truth is not an abstraction, but a person - Edith Stein
Free will, though it makes evil possible, is also the only thing that makes possible any love or goodness or joy worth having. - CS Lewis
Joy is the Gigantic Secret of Christians - GK Chesterton

torridon

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #40248 on: May 15, 2020, 05:54:37 PM »
The presumption that conscious awareness exists in other creatures cannot be used to explain what conscious awareness comprises or how it works. This is just a distraction.  My own personal belief remains that animals do not experience the conscious awareness of humans.  However animals are also God's creation.  You are free to believe that animals have been gifted with the same attributes of free will and conscious awareness as humans if you wish.

Sloppy work Burns, you keep on insisting on mixing up different things as if they were the same.  No one claims other species have the same consciousness as humans, clearly being a bat is probably going to be very different to being a human.  But it is going to be like something.

All animal species, humans included, have some or other form of conscious experience, this is abundantly clear unless you are some sort of hard code solipsist. Conscious experience is not the same thing as free will. 

If we define free will in a compatibilist sense, we are free to act on our desires so long as there is no coercion, then we all have free will, and most other animals do too.  If you define free will to mean freedom from instinctive-only behaviours, then we all have free will, and so do some animal species. If you define free will as freedom from determinism, then there is no way to validate that claim, and no way to even describe what that would mean.  That form of free will is an incoherent no-no.

Alan Burns

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #40249 on: May 15, 2020, 06:46:40 PM »
If you define free will as freedom from determinism, then there is no way to validate that claim, and no way to even describe what that would mean. 
Freedom to choose our own thoughts, words and actions does not imply freedom from determinism of any sort, just free from the deterministic nature of physically controlled reactions.  As I said earlier, our conscious awareness is the buffer zone in which we are consciously aware of influences, but allows us freedom to choose how to react (or not to react) to those influences.
The truth will set you free  - John 8:32
Truth is not an abstraction, but a person - Edith Stein
Free will, though it makes evil possible, is also the only thing that makes possible any love or goodness or joy worth having. - CS Lewis
Joy is the Gigantic Secret of Christians - GK Chesterton