Author Topic: Searching for GOD...  (Read 3888647 times)

Stranger

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 8236
  • Lightly seared on the reality grill.
Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #40275 on: May 19, 2020, 10:58:38 AM »
The source of human will remains as elusive as the source of existence to the human mind...

Drivel.

...until they come to know God.

Blind faith.

Once more you've just ignored all the actual reasoning you've been given.

Still waiting for any hint of the logic you said you had or the basic human honesty to admit you have none...
x(∅ ∈ x ∧ ∀y(yxy ∪ {y} ∈ x))

Outrider

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 14561
Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #40276 on: May 19, 2020, 11:12:53 AM »
The source of human will remains as elusive as the source of existence to the human mind - until they come to know God.

If the source of human will is elusive, how can you attribute it to God?  How does God bypass the logical issue of something being both non-deterministic and non-random?

O.
Universes are forever, not just for creation...

New Atheism - because, apparently, there's a use-by date on unanswered questions.

Eminent Pedant, Interpreter of Heretical Writings, Unwarranted Harvester of Trite Nomenclature, Church of Debatable Saints

Walt Zingmatilder

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 33188
Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #40277 on: May 19, 2020, 11:19:46 AM »
To make any progress on that front, you'd first need to establish some evidence for 'God's and for 'soul's.  In their absence, we can safely ignore such empty assertions.
What about philosophical arguments, after all your arguments proceed from philosophy since there is no natural evidence for philosophical naturalism.

If you are an illusion, what is it that is having the illusion?

Was it you that said consciousness was like an orchestra tuning up? I thought an orchestra was several consciousnesses.

Stranger

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 8236
  • Lightly seared on the reality grill.
Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #40278 on: May 19, 2020, 11:30:41 AM »
What about philosophical arguments, after all your arguments proceed from philosophy since there is no natural evidence for philosophical naturalism.

 ::)    Nobody here (that I'm aware of) is either claiming or using philosophical naturalism.

If you have a sound philosophical argument for some god or for souls, then do feel free to post it.
x(∅ ∈ x ∧ ∀y(yxy ∪ {y} ∈ x))

Alan Burns

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 10210
  • I lay it down of my own free will. John 10:18
Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #40279 on: May 19, 2020, 11:37:12 AM »
If the source of human will is elusive, how can you attribute it to God?  How does God bypass the logical issue of something being both non-deterministic and non-random?

O.
If it is not an inevitable reaction to past events, it must be determined by something which exists and acts in the present - God's gift of the human soul
The truth will set you free  - John 8:32
Truth is not an abstraction, but a person - Edith Stein
Free will, though it makes evil possible, is also the only thing that makes possible any love or goodness or joy worth having. - CS Lewis
Joy is the Gigantic Secret of Christians - GK Chesterton

Walt Zingmatilder

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 33188
Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #40280 on: May 19, 2020, 11:42:07 AM »
::)    Nobody here (that I'm aware of) is either claiming or using philosophical naturalism.

You have put some bollocks on this forum Strangers but that is the Fred Astaire and Ginger Rogers of Bollocks.

Stranger

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 8236
  • Lightly seared on the reality grill.
Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #40281 on: May 19, 2020, 11:43:20 AM »
If it is not an inevitable reaction to past events...

Something that you have totally failed to establish.

...it must be determined by something which exists and acts in the present...

Repeating meaningless gibberish over and over again will not make it make any more sense and it makes you look like an idiot.

...God's gift of the human soul

Which wouldn't follow even if all the rest of what you've claimed wasn't nonsense.

Where is the logic you said you had?
x(∅ ∈ x ∧ ∀y(yxy ∪ {y} ∈ x))

Stranger

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 8236
  • Lightly seared on the reality grill.
Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #40282 on: May 19, 2020, 11:45:44 AM »
You have put some bollocks on this forum Strangers but that is the Fred Astaire and Ginger Rogers of Bollocks.

If you can point out where anybody has claimed or used philosophical naturalism, then do so. All you've actually done is repeatedly assert that people are using it.

What is it with the theists here that they seem to think that endlessly repeating something is going to make it true?
x(∅ ∈ x ∧ ∀y(yxy ∪ {y} ∈ x))

Alan Burns

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 10210
  • I lay it down of my own free will. John 10:18
Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #40283 on: May 19, 2020, 11:47:13 AM »
::)    Nobody here (that I'm aware of) is either claiming or using philosophical naturalism.

It would appear that many are using it without realising they are using it.
The truth will set you free  - John 8:32
Truth is not an abstraction, but a person - Edith Stein
Free will, though it makes evil possible, is also the only thing that makes possible any love or goodness or joy worth having. - CS Lewis
Joy is the Gigantic Secret of Christians - GK Chesterton

Walt Zingmatilder

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 33188
Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #40284 on: May 19, 2020, 11:50:34 AM »
It would appear that many are using it without realising they are using it.
You are being very charitable Alan I think there is a bit of shiftiness about the denials because of an arrogant belief that they are the ones doing the categorising, not one of the actual categories.

torridon

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 10209
Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #40285 on: May 19, 2020, 11:50:55 AM »
What about philosophical arguments, after all your arguments proceed from philosophy since there is no natural evidence for philosophical naturalism.

If you are an illusion, what is it that is having the illusion?

Was it you that said consciousness was like an orchestra tuning up? I thought an orchestra was several consciousnesses.

I would presume the self to be illusory in the sense that it feels fundamental and irreducible but in fact it must be an emergent property of mind.  No such thing as a master neuron in neurophysiology.

Alan Burns

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 10210
  • I lay it down of my own free will. John 10:18
Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #40286 on: May 19, 2020, 11:53:15 AM »

Repeating meaningless gibberish over and over again will not make it make any more sense and it makes you look like an idiot.

Repeating anything is evidence of my conscious freedom to do so.
What does not make any sense is the presumption that I could not possibly have chosen not to repeat it.
The truth will set you free  - John 8:32
Truth is not an abstraction, but a person - Edith Stein
Free will, though it makes evil possible, is also the only thing that makes possible any love or goodness or joy worth having. - CS Lewis
Joy is the Gigantic Secret of Christians - GK Chesterton

Stranger

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 8236
  • Lightly seared on the reality grill.
Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #40287 on: May 19, 2020, 11:54:22 AM »
It would appear that many are using it without realising they are using it.

Do you want to do more than just assert that?

...

What am I thinking? I'm talking to a truly world class baseless assertion generator...
« Last Edit: May 19, 2020, 11:59:35 AM by Never Talk to Strangers »
x(∅ ∈ x ∧ ∀y(yxy ∪ {y} ∈ x))

Stranger

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 8236
  • Lightly seared on the reality grill.
Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #40288 on: May 19, 2020, 11:59:10 AM »
Repeating anything is evidence of my conscious freedom to do so.

More dishonest nonsense. Nobody disputes the "freedom" needed to choose to mindlessly repeat idiocy like a broken speak-your-weight machine.

What does not make any sense is the presumption that I could not possibly have chosen not to repeat it.

If you could have chosen not to repeat it, at that exact moment and in those exact circumstances and state of mind, then there could be no possible reason for the difference, which means you are claiming that part of your choice was random.

Where is the logic you said you had?
x(∅ ∈ x ∧ ∀y(yxy ∪ {y} ∈ x))

Walt Zingmatilder

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 33188
Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #40289 on: May 19, 2020, 12:00:43 PM »
If you can point out where anybody has claimed or used philosophical naturalism, then do so.
Probably best to add an alert in response to philosophical materialism in posts.

Of course the notion that there is no such thing as the self because it cannot be explained naturalistically or demonstrated by science is the philosophical naturalistic argument par excellence. The dismissal of philosophical argument as a path to truth is another one marked by the insistence of evidence instead and the subsequent suggestion that evidence of course means scientific evidence and finally the equation of science with atheism as betrayed by continual sidestepping back into science, Science does not have anything to say about any philosophy and leads to facts about a physical world any appeal that equates physics with the word reality is a philosophical naturalistic argument.
« Last Edit: May 19, 2020, 12:06:31 PM by The Chasm of Equivocation »

Walt Zingmatilder

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 33188
Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #40290 on: May 19, 2020, 12:04:52 PM »
I would presume the self to be illusory in the sense that it feels fundamental and irreducible but in fact it must be an emergent property of mind.  No such thing as a master neuron in neurophysiology.
But what is it that is having the illusion?

If nothing is having the illusion then why don't you stop using the word? Answer IMHO is that it is an sloppy atheism used to offend that has somehow become confused with science which is what some dirty stinking versions of atheism wanted in the first place.

Secondly for people who don't believe in selves the atheists on here do a lot of condemning individuals.

torridon

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 10209
Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #40291 on: May 19, 2020, 12:12:58 PM »
But what is it that is having the illusion?

If nothing is having the illusion then why don't you stop using the word? Answer IMHO is that it is an sloppy atheism used to offend that has somehow become confused with science which is what some dirty stinking versions of atheism wanted in the first place.

Secondly for people who don't believe in selves the atheists on here do a lot of condemning individuals.

That is mostly hot air, none of which even attempts to address the fundamental disconnect between how mind feels, and how we know it must work from the perspective of neuroanatomy.

bluehillside Retd.

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 19470
Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #40292 on: May 19, 2020, 12:18:19 PM »
Vlad,

Quote
What about philosophical arguments, after all your arguments proceed from philosophy since there is no natural evidence for philosophical naturalism.

If you are an illusion, what is it that is having the illusion?

Was it you that said consciousness was like an orchestra tuning up? I thought an orchestra was several consciousnesses.

Deliberate dishonesty, or you can you really not grasp the simple explanations for why this is wrong? Anyway, yet again…

...what you’re actually trying to describe here is called physicalism – ie, “Physicalism is the thesis that everything is physical, or as contemporary philosophers sometimes put it, that everything supervenes on the physical.” (https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/physicalism/).

I’ve never known anyone to argue for it, and the arguments for atheism don’t require it at all but if you want to keep tilting at that entirely irrelevant windmill of your own making then by all means knock yourself out.

"Don't make me come down there."

God

Walt Zingmatilder

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 33188
Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #40293 on: May 19, 2020, 12:18:29 PM »
That is mostly hot air, none of which even attempts to address the fundamental disconnect between how mind feels, and how we know it must work from the perspective of neuroanatomy.
I will ask you again. If the self is an illusion......what is it that is having the illusion?

Alan Burns

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 10210
  • I lay it down of my own free will. John 10:18
Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #40294 on: May 19, 2020, 12:18:42 PM »

If you could have chosen not to repeat it, at that exact moment and in those exact circumstances and state of mind, then there could be no possible reason for the difference, which means you are claiming that part of your choice was random.

All I am claiming is that part of my choice is "me".
It is my choice, not nature's.
But what is "me"?
What determines my state of mind?
What is a state of mind?
The truth will set you free  - John 8:32
Truth is not an abstraction, but a person - Edith Stein
Free will, though it makes evil possible, is also the only thing that makes possible any love or goodness or joy worth having. - CS Lewis
Joy is the Gigantic Secret of Christians - GK Chesterton

torridon

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 10209
Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #40295 on: May 19, 2020, 12:21:19 PM »
All I am claiming is that part of my choice is "me".
It is my choice, not nature's.
But what is "me"?
What determines my state of mind?
What is a state of mind?

The past determines your state of mind.  It's that old arrow of time thing, no escaping it I'm afraid, it is a fundamental feature of this universe.

Stranger

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 8236
  • Lightly seared on the reality grill.
Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #40296 on: May 19, 2020, 12:25:01 PM »
Of course the notion that there is no such thing as the self because it cannot be explained naturalistically or demonstrated by science is the philosophical naturalistic argument par excellence.

Who made this argument and where? There are arguments that the idea of a self is not quite what it seems to be "from the inside" but those are based on more than the assertion of naturalism. There are also arguments that the mind is the direct product of the brain but those are based on actual evidence, not a philosophical position.

The dismissal of philosophical argument as a path to truth is another one...

Who has done this (as opposed dismissal of a particular argument)? And how would that make somebody a philosophical naturalist anyway?

...marked by the insistence of evidence instead and the subsequent suggestion that evidence of course means scientific evidence...

The point here is simply that if you want to introduce some other evidence we need a way to evaluate it. This is not philosophical naturalism, it's just logic.

...and finally the equation of science with atheism as betrayed by continual sidestepping back into science...

Who equates science with atheism? Why would that make them a philosophical naturalist?

...Science does not have anything to say about any philosophy...

That actually depends on the philosophy.

...and leads to facts about a physical world any appeal that equates physics with the word reality. Is a philosophical naturalistic argument.

Asking for a reason to accept the objective existence of things that aren't "natural" is not taking the position that no such things exist and therefore is not philosophical naturalism.
x(∅ ∈ x ∧ ∀y(yxy ∪ {y} ∈ x))

torridon

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 10209
Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #40297 on: May 19, 2020, 12:28:38 PM »
I will ask you again. If the self is an illusion......what is it that is having the illusion?

That would be your (illusory) self that is subject to the illusion that it exists as a distinct ontological entity.  Which is the point at which most people admit defeat in trying to conceptualise it.  But the alternative, of some inner homonculus inside is self-referential (sorry) nonsense with no basis in empirical science.

Stranger

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 8236
  • Lightly seared on the reality grill.
Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #40298 on: May 19, 2020, 12:30:17 PM »
All I am claiming is that part of my choice is "me".

All of your choice is you unless you're being coerced or something.

It is my choice, not nature's.

How do you know there is a difference?

But what is "me"?
What determines my state of mind?
What is a state of mind?

It really doesn't matter what it is (physical, spiritual, magic, or whatever), it changes its state over time and is therefore either operating as a deterministic system or not (and therefore involves randomness).
x(∅ ∈ x ∧ ∀y(yxy ∪ {y} ∈ x))

SusanDoris

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 8265
Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #40299 on: May 19, 2020, 12:34:00 PM »
My thoughts exactly! More and more meaningless drivel.
Drivel.

Blind faith.

Once more you've just ignored all the actual reasoning you've been given.

Still waiting for any hint of the logic you said you had or the basic human honesty to admit you have none...
The Most Honourable Sister of Titular Indecision.