Author Topic: Searching for GOD...  (Read 3886397 times)

Outrider

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #40900 on: July 09, 2020, 08:57:02 AM »
The essential complement to having free will is self awareness - from which our will emanates, which machines obviously do not possess.

Being self-aware does not liberate the concept of free will from the inherent oxymoron of something being both will (i.e. determined on prior events) and free (i.e. not determined on prior events).

What definition of machine are you using that precludes self-awareness?  I'm not saying that it's impossible, but a self-aware machine is entirely conceivable even if you were to define machines as, say, non-biological.

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And the machine would not be aware of any concept of argument.

A sufficiently advanced machine may well be.  Certainly, if you don't restrict machines to being non-organic, then we as biological machines appear to be quite aware of the concept.

O.
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Alan Burns

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #40901 on: July 09, 2020, 10:32:04 AM »
Being self-aware does not liberate the concept of free will from the inherent oxymoron of something being both will (i.e. determined on prior events) and free (i.e. not determined on prior events).

What definition of machine are you using that precludes self-awareness?  I'm not saying that it's impossible, but a self-aware machine is entirely conceivable even if you were to define machines as, say, non-biological.

I think the question should be:

What definition of self awareness are you using to presume that this property is achievable with man made machines?
The truth will set you free  - John 8:32
Truth is not an abstraction, but a person - Edith Stein
Free will, though it makes evil possible, is also the only thing that makes possible any love or goodness or joy worth having. - CS Lewis
Joy is the Gigantic Secret of Christians - GK Chesterton

Outrider

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #40902 on: July 09, 2020, 10:38:03 AM »
I think the question should be:

What definition of self awareness are you using to presume that this property is achievable with man made machines?

Pretty much any definition will do, given that I'm not claiming we're there at the moment, I'm asking if it's viable.  Not that I'm limiting to 'man made' machines, either.

O.
Universes are forever, not just for creation...

New Atheism - because, apparently, there's a use-by date on unanswered questions.

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bluehillside Retd.

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #40903 on: July 09, 2020, 10:49:41 AM »
AB,

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I think the question should be:

What definition of self awareness are you using to presume that this property is achievable with man made machines?

Self-awareness that at an experiential level is indistinguishable from your or my experience self-awareness is as good as any, but psychologists have various tests of tests awareness (the mirror test for example) that would serve the purpose.

What the question actually should be though is, as you assert machines to be incapable of self-awareness, how did you arrive at that conclusion? What hard barrier to self-awareness in machines do you think there to be, and why?
"Don't make me come down there."

God

Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #40904 on: July 09, 2020, 10:52:47 AM »
This is just using your characteristic illogic to try a reversal of the burden of proof.  You and straightforward honest thinking seem to be complete strangers.

To try to think of reasons to not believe in God is logically fatuous - the burden falls to people who make positive claims of theism.  So, you are free to make such claims (because we live in a free country, not because we have irrational supernatural powers) and others are free to question and criticise those claims.
 
Similarly, free will is your positive claim, whilst others critique that claim.  You claim God, you claim free will; I retort that there is neither evidence nor reason in support of either claim.
And that too is a positive assertion......The clue is in the is

Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #40905 on: July 09, 2020, 10:57:46 AM »
Vlad,

What a system supposedly “needs” is neither here nor there. Does this system “need” to flash synchronously?:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ix66tQ93bdU

The degree of “uselessness” is unknown, and being “for” something betrays your ignorance of emergence as a phenomenon. 
   
I mean what is it's survival value. Why is it naturally selected for?
If it doesn't need it why is it selected for?

If you are saying it doesn't do anything, then I have pre-empted that by calling it probably the most useless thing in the universe.

But the most interesting question is what, if anything does it do?
« Last Edit: July 09, 2020, 11:00:43 AM by Your friendly illusion of self. »

bluehillside Retd.

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #40906 on: July 09, 2020, 11:11:31 AM »
Vlad,

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I mean what is it's survival value. Why is it naturally selected for?
If it doesn't need it why is it selected for?

If you are saying it doesn't do anything, then I have pre-empted that by calling it probably the most useless thing in the universe.

What “survival value” do you think the lights flashing synchronously have? The point is that the behaviour emerged spontaneously even though none of the individual tiles were programmed for it. You might call that useless, but it’s a very nice example of the phenomenon nonetheless – and there’s no reason to think that consciousness isn’t the same phenomenon played out on a colossally larger scale.

As for self-awareness in general, self-evidently I’d have thought systems that are self-aware will survive more effectively than those that aren’t – not least because they can plan and organise their own wellbeing.     
"Don't make me come down there."

God

Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #40907 on: July 09, 2020, 11:16:27 AM »
Vlad,

What a system supposedly “needs” is neither here nor there. Does this system “need” to flash synchronously?:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ix66tQ93bdU 
How do you think robots flashing individually, flashing in unison when together is an explanation of self awareness. Whether there are two or a million or two they would still flash together. The same with wetness only a new property emerges. water molecules not being programmed.

So not all complexity is equally er, complex.

Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #40908 on: July 09, 2020, 11:19:00 AM »
Vlad,
 

As for self-awareness in general, self-evidently I’d have thought systems that are self-aware will survive more effectively than those that aren’t – not least because they can plan and organise their own wellbeing.   
They could do that without self awareness.

Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #40909 on: July 09, 2020, 11:21:59 AM »
Vlad,

What “survival value” do you think the lights flashing synchronously have? The point is that the behaviour emerged spontaneously even though none of the individual tiles were programmed for it.   
Excuse me weren't they programmed to respond to their neighbours. If so some alteration to behaviour was predictable. That is not the case where a new property cannot be predicted at a lower order of complexity.

bluehillside Retd.

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #40910 on: July 09, 2020, 12:14:13 PM »
Vlad,

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How do you think robots flashing individually, flashing in unison when together is an explanation of self awareness.

I said no such thing. What I said was that it’s a nice demonstration of an emergent property, and that there’s no reason to exclude self-awareness from the same conceptual model.

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Whether there are two or a million or two they would still flash together. The same with wetness only a new property emerges. water molecules not being programmed.

They might also do other things given enough of them, but essentially yes. “Programmed” is a red a herring though – “perform simple actions consistently” is good enough whether or not purposely programmed to perform them.

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So not all complexity is equally er, complex.

No shit Sherlock, and irrelevant.

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They could do that without self awareness.

Maybe, but not as effectively.

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Excuse me weren't they programmed to respond to their neighbours. If so some alteration to behaviour was predictable. That is not the case where a new property cannot be predicted at a lower order of complexity.

Wrong again. Yes they were programmed to perform certain tasks, but one of those tasks wasn’t to flash synchronously with all their immediate neighbours. Think of termites performing a few simple tasks consistently and the complexity of the phenomena that emerge spontaneously from those tasks. Conceptually at least there’s no barrier to a spectrum here with flashing lights at one end, termite mounds in the middle and consciousness at the other end. The only difference between them is complexity, not the nature of the underlying phenomenon.   
"Don't make me come down there."

God

Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #40911 on: July 09, 2020, 12:24:21 PM »
Vlad,

I said no such thing. What I said was that it’s a nice demonstration of an emergent property, and that there’s no reason to exclude self-awareness from the same conceptual model.

They might also do other things given enough of them, but essentially yes. “Programmed” is a red a herring though – “perform simple actions consistently” is good enough whether or not purposely programmed to perform them.

No shit Sherlock, and irrelevant.

Maybe, but not as effectively.

Wrong again. Yes they were programmed to perform certain tasks, but one of those tasks wasn’t to flash synchronously with all their immediate neighbours. Think of termites performing a few simple tasks consistently and the complexity of the phenomena that emerge spontaneously from those tasks. Conceptually at least there’s no barrier to a spectrum here with flashing lights at one end, termite mounds in the middle and consciousness at the other end. The only difference between them is complexity, not the nature of the underlying phenomenon.   
I'm not doubting self awareness as an emergent phenomenon. I'm saying that new behaviour is predictable for things programmed to respond to what their neighbours are doing. There is an important distinction between a predictable change internal to the nature of the component part and a new phenomenon unpredictable from it's components. Which type of emergence are you proposing for self awareness?

Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #40912 on: July 09, 2020, 01:25:47 PM »
Vlad,

What “survival value” do you think the lights flashing synchronously have?   
It could give either the appearence of being a larger being and/or a coordinated pack.

Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #40913 on: July 09, 2020, 01:29:43 PM »
Conceptually at least there’s no barrier to a spectrum here with flashing lights at one end, termite mounds in the middle and consciousness at the other end. The only difference between them is complexity, not the nature of the underlying phenomenon.   
Where would you put intelligence on that spectrum?

Alan Burns

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #40914 on: July 09, 2020, 02:36:09 PM »
What the question actually should be though is, as you assert machines to be incapable of self-awareness, how did you arrive at that conclusion? What hard barrier to self-awareness in machines do you think there to be, and why?
Material reactions may well be designed to mimic self awareness to an outside observer, but essentially they are just material elements reacting with each other with no concept of awareness.  I put it to you that no amount of physical complexity will ever generate an entity of conscious awareness, because atoms and molecules react - they do not perceive.

The concept of man made machines achieving self awareness and a will of their own will forever remain in the annals of science fiction.
The truth will set you free  - John 8:32
Truth is not an abstraction, but a person - Edith Stein
Free will, though it makes evil possible, is also the only thing that makes possible any love or goodness or joy worth having. - CS Lewis
Joy is the Gigantic Secret of Christians - GK Chesterton

torridon

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #40915 on: July 09, 2020, 02:44:11 PM »
Material reactions may well be designed to mimic self awareness to an outside observer, but essentially they are just material elements reacting with each other with no concept of awareness.  I put it to you that no amount of physical complexity will ever generate an entity of conscious awareness, because atoms and molecules react - they do not perceive.
..

But when it suits, you liken non-human creatures to computers and yet they clearly experience perception, as I've had to explain multitudinous times already.  You're just being arbitrarily two faced when it suits.

Outrider

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #40916 on: July 09, 2020, 03:08:56 PM »
Material reactions may well be designed to mimic self awareness to an outside observer, but essentially they are just material elements reacting with each other with no concept of awareness.

What's the difference between being self-aware, and mimicking the appearance of self-awareness in response to criteria regarding your own situation?

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I put it to you that no amount of physical complexity will ever generate an entity of conscious awareness, because atoms and molecules react - they do not perceive.

Atoms don't smell, either, but smell exists.  Atoms don't glow, but yet we have light.  There are any number of properties of material that do not derive from the properties of the constituent parts, but rather the interactions between them.

A 1 is just a 1, a zero is a zero, and yet your internet works.  Consciousness is information - it's the interpretation of data - and we have any number of computers capable of the processing of data into information; what is the criterion upon which you're basing the presumption that the human brain is qualitatively different from a computer in this sense, and not merely quantitatively different?

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The concept of man made machines achieving self awareness and a will of their own will forever remain in the annals of science fiction.

That's a possibility, but far from certain I'd suggest.

O.
Universes are forever, not just for creation...

New Atheism - because, apparently, there's a use-by date on unanswered questions.

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Alan Burns

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #40917 on: July 09, 2020, 04:05:09 PM »
But when it suits, you liken non-human creatures to computers and yet they clearly experience perception, as I've had to explain multitudinous times already.  You're just being arbitrarily two faced when it suits.
And I have explained multitudinous times that external observation of instinctive animal reactions to sensory data is not necessarily an indication of internal conscious perception.
The truth will set you free  - John 8:32
Truth is not an abstraction, but a person - Edith Stein
Free will, though it makes evil possible, is also the only thing that makes possible any love or goodness or joy worth having. - CS Lewis
Joy is the Gigantic Secret of Christians - GK Chesterton

torridon

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #40918 on: July 09, 2020, 04:36:03 PM »
And I have explained multitudinous times that external observation of instinctive animal reactions to sensory data is not necessarily an indication of internal conscious perception.

yes, but there is no serious reason to doubt it. Do you really think the mammalian perceptual systems that we share with all other mammals through inheritance only works in homo sapiens ? have other species developed some other means of perception that we haven't discovered because they seem to be able to get around just fine. This is a preposterous claim based on zero evidence and no rationale.

Owlswing

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #40919 on: July 09, 2020, 05:33:07 PM »

yes, but there is no serious reason to doubt it. Do you really think the mammalian perceptual systems that we share with all other mammals through inheritance only works in homo sapiens ? have other species developed some other means of perception that we haven't discovered because they seem to be able to get around just fine. This is a preposterous claim based on zero evidence and no rationale.

Ah but if you believe in the bible evidence and rationale are unnecessary!
The Holy Bible, probably the most diabolical work of fiction ever to be visited upon mankind.

An it harm none, do what you will; an it harm some, do what you must!

Alan Burns

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #40920 on: July 09, 2020, 06:24:27 PM »
What's the difference between being self-aware, and mimicking the appearance of self-awareness in response to criteria regarding your own situation?
Self awareness is an internal property which I presume we all experience during our conscious existence.  Our self awareness is not defined by externally observed responses.  You do not need to react to be aware of your existence.

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Atoms don't smell, either, but smell exists.
Smell is what we perceive internally when our sensory data indicates the presence of certain molecules in what we breathe.
It is an awareness of reactions in my physical brain which I consciously interpret as a "smell".

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  Atoms don't glow, but yet we have light. 
Light is the label given to what is perceived by another reaction in our physical brain caused by the detection of certain wavelengths of radiation which emanate from physical material reactions.
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There are any number of properties of material that do not derive from the properties of the constituent parts, but rather the interactions between them.
These "properties" of material are just human labels given to certain aspects of perceived brain activity derived from material reactions.
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A 1 is just a 1, a zero is a zero, and yet your internet works.  Consciousness is information - it's the interpretation of data - and we have any number of computers capable of the processing of data into information; what is the criterion upon which you're basing the presumption that the human brain is qualitatively different from a computer in this sense, and not merely quantitatively different?
Information only exists as information in human perception.
Any information in a computer or produced by a computer only exists in raw binary form until it is consciously perceived by a human.
The truth will set you free  - John 8:32
Truth is not an abstraction, but a person - Edith Stein
Free will, though it makes evil possible, is also the only thing that makes possible any love or goodness or joy worth having. - CS Lewis
Joy is the Gigantic Secret of Christians - GK Chesterton

bluehillside Retd.

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #40921 on: July 09, 2020, 07:57:48 PM »
Vlad,

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I'm not doubting self awareness as an emergent phenomenon.

Well that’s progress I guess. Could I trouble you to explain that to AB please?

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I'm saying that new behaviour is predictable for things programmed to respond to what their neighbours are doing.

Er, what’s “predictable” is the change in behaviour the programmes is written to do. If the programme in your smart hoover says “stop when you hit a wall” then it’ll stop when it hits a wall. That tells you nothing though about what a thousand of them in a closed space might do.   

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There is an important distinction between a predictable change internal to the nature of the component part and a new phenomenon unpredictable from it's components. Which type of emergence are you proposing for self awareness?

Er, a “predictable change internal to the nature of the component part” isn’t an emergent property. The emergent property I’m suggesting is the only one on the table.   

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It could give either the appearence of being a larger being and/or a coordinated pack.

You do realise that these are manufactured tiles right, not a species of animal prone to predation? In any case, you betray here a basic misunderstanding of emergence. Emergent properties aren’t designed for a purpose – looking like a pack for example. Rather they emerge spontaneously from simpler but consistent interactions of the relevant component parts.   

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Where would you put intelligence on that spectrum?

“Intelligence” is far to loosely defined to place it on a spectrum. Is a bonobo intelligent? A dolphin? How about a lemur or a shark or a frog or an earthworm?

Look, if you genuinely have any interest in the subject why not have a look at the book I directed you to way back: “Emergence: The Connected Lives of Ants, Brains, Cities and Software” by Steven Johnson?
"Don't make me come down there."

God

torridon

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #40922 on: July 10, 2020, 08:18:50 AM »
Self awareness is an internal property which I presume we all experience during our conscious existence.  Our self awareness is not defined by externally observed responses.  You do not need to react to be aware of your existence.
Smell is what we perceive internally when our sensory data indicates the presence of certain molecules in what we breathe.
It is an awareness of reactions in my physical brain which I consciously interpret as a "smell".
Light is the label given to what is perceived by another reaction in our physical brain caused by the detection of certain wavelengths of radiation which emanate from physical material reactions.These "properties" of material are just human labels given to certain aspects of perceived brain activity derived from material reactions.Information only exists as information in human perception.
Any information in a computer or produced by a computer only exists in raw binary form until it is consciously perceived by a human.

Ah, your usual tangle of misconceptions.  Just to clear a few up :

Light is the label given to what is perceived by another reaction in our physical brain caused by the detection of certain wavelengths of radiation which emanate from physical material reactions.

No, it isn't.  Light is the visible portion of the electromagnetic spectrum, a phenomenon of the natural world that exists independently of perception. "Light" is the label given to that portion of the electromagnetic spectrum in the English language. The detection of light by retinal structures is called "photoreception" and the interpretation of information encoded in the light in a brain is called "visual perception", and no, it is not just human brains that do this, it is an ancient component of brain function predating the evolution of humans by hundreds of millions of years.

Smell is what we perceive internally when our sensory data indicates the presence of certain molecules in what we breathe.
It is an awareness of reactions in my physical brain which I consciously interpret as a "smell".


Multiple issues with that too. Outrider's point was one of emergence, atoms don't smell yet complex compounds can be smelly. Likewise the yellowness of a lemon does not derive from its having yellow atoms.  If you don't understand the principle of emergence you will not get far.  Smells existed long before humans evolved a sense of smell and humans anyway have a sense of smell because we have mammalian brains and mammalian brains (as well as reptilian brains) evolved olfactory perception.  Take a look at dog walkers, you will see that the human walks upright with his head in air, the dog by contrast proceeds with its nose glued to the ground, the scents on the ground provide a rich source of fascination for dogs in a way we can scarcely understand.  Consciousness in a dog prioritises olfactory perception over visual perception and this process is something that is built deep into subliminal brain function, neither man nor dog has any control over this.

Self awareness is an internal property which I presume we all experience during our conscious existence.  Our self awareness is not defined by externally observed responses.

As with visual perception or auditory perception, self awareness is an aspect of internal conscious experience, and again, it is not something that is exclusive to humans.  A strong sense of self characterises humans but it exists in some degree in all vertebrates.  Any creature that was unable to understand when it ended and the rest of the cosmos started would not last long. At base, all self-awareness begins with proprioception, this is why all organisms that move have a sophisticated nervous system continually collecting sensory tactile information from all parts of the body, all of which is processed in the brain, the emergent outcome of which forms the basis of the sense of self and this is true whether you are a bat, a badger or a banker.
« Last Edit: July 10, 2020, 10:14:51 AM by torridon »

Outrider

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #40923 on: July 10, 2020, 08:44:30 AM »
Self awareness is an internal property which I presume we all experience during our conscious existence.  Our self awareness is not defined by externally observed responses.  You do not need to react to be aware of your existence.

As the observer of self in self awareness, however, what you are observing is an 'external' - that's why we get dualistic philosophies because our awareness and what we are aware of 'feel' separate.

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Smell is what we perceive internally when our sensory data indicates the presence of certain molecules in what we breathe.  It is an awareness of reactions in my physical brain which I consciously interpret as a "smell".

Light is the label given to what is perceived by another reaction in our physical brain caused by the detection of certain wavelengths of radiation which emanate from physical material reactions.
 These "properties" of material are just human labels given to certain aspects of perceived brain activity derived from material reactions.

Exactly.  We identify 'properties' that aren't intrinsic to the component parts of reality based on the context in which we find them and the patterns of activity they exhibit when they interact; why are you presuming that consciousness is somehow more fundamental than that and cannot be a pattern of activity of material things?

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Information only exists as information in human perception.

Information exists whenever data is processed - and you don't need a human for that.  When owl's take visual stimuli and work out where they need to stoop to catch a field mouse, they've turned data into information - so far as we can tell they don't have a mental framework capable of the abstraction of knowing that's what they've done, but they've done it nonetheless.  When a computer puts keyboard inputs through an algorithm to produce movement of a sprite on a screen it's turned data into information, and is equally unaware of it.  The owl has been programmed by evolution, the computer by a human operator, but both operate as machines.

What do you have that raises consciousness to something different in nature from that activity, and not merely a more complex example of exactly the same sort of data processing?

O.

Any information in a computer or produced by a computer only exists in raw binary form until it is consciously perceived by a human.
[/quote]
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SusanDoris

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #40924 on: July 10, 2020, 09:59:28 AM »
Toridon

Agree with what you (and all the other rational posters!) say, but just popping in to say that birds too hav a sense of smell. It's in the book! Bird Sense by Prof Tim Birkhead.
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