Searching for GOD...

[Roses]

Yes, animal brains are seen to react in programmed, instinctive ways. 

Humans are animals too.

[Sebastian Toe]

There are powers of evil which blind people to the truth.

What are these powers?
How exactly do they blind people to the truth?

Are you assisting these evil powers but not warning people about the detail in order that they might resist them?

Why are you so reticent?
It's all very suspicious.
...very suspicious!

[Alan Burns]

You keep saying this, but you keep failing to demonstrate it.  It would appear that you are a series of physical reactions which are constrained to be unable to accept that you might just be a complex series of physical reactions.

And how would a complex series of reactions actually know they are a complex series of reactions.

[Sebastian Toe]

And how would a complex series of reactions actually know they are a complex series of reactions.

...by using the emergent property of their brain, called conciousness!


Anyway, ....back to powers of evil......any clues yet?

[torridon]

Yes, animal brains are seen to react in programmed, instinctive ways. 

Which does not detract from the fact that they know things, things which are important to them in their world.

[torridon]

And how would a complex series of reactions actually know they are a complex series of reactions.

It's not necessary that they would.  I am looking at the laptop screen now.  It is the laptop screen that I have knowledge of, not the millions of electrochemical signals from which that knowledge emerges. Likewise when a penguin recognises its chick, the knowledge is what emerges from brain function, not the brain function itself.

[Gordon]

And how would a complex series of reactions actually know they are a complex series of reactions.

Don't be silly: reactions don't know anything, Alan. You need brains to process information (such as from reactions) before it can be considered as knowledge.

[Alan Burns]

Which does not detract from the fact that they know things, things which are important to them in their world.

Conscious knowledge is not an ingredient of programmed reactions.

[Alan Burns]

Don't be silly: reactions don't know anything, Alan. You need brains to process information (such as from reactions) before it can be considered as knowledge.

And what do you suppose goes on inside a material brain?
Could it be physical reactions

[Alan Burns]

It's not necessary that they would.  I am looking at the laptop screen now.  It is the laptop screen that I have knowledge of, not the millions of electrochemical signals from which that knowledge emerges. ...

But the material brain comprises nothing but millions of electromagnetic signals.
The problem is what actually perceives and interprets these signals into the conscious knowledge that "you" experience?

[Gordon]

But the material brain comprises nothing but millions of electromagnetic signals.
The problem is what actually perceives and interprets these signals into the conscious knowledge that "you" experience?

Fallacy of composition: you seem unable to construct a sentence without it being fallacious.

[Alan Burns]

What are these powers?
How exactly do they blind people to the truth?

You can find out more about them in the divine revelations of the Christian bible.

The Devil's greatest ploy:
https://quoteinvestigator.com/2018/03/20/devil/

[torridon]

Conscious knowledge is not an ingredient of programmed reactions.

Maybe not in a simple desktop-computer concept of 'programmed'.  But it is in all creatures that have perception, all visual perception for instance is mediated through the contents of consciousness, and visual perception is a form of knowledge.  Do you really think that a penguin knows nothing about its partner, or its chick, or about the distance to the ocean ?

[torridon]

But the material brain comprises nothing but millions of electromagnetic signals.
The problem is what actually perceives and interprets these signals into the conscious knowledge that "you" experience?

And a penguin comprises nothing but 4,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 atoms of hydrogen, oxygen and carbon (mainly, give or take a few billion) and not one of those is alive, and yet, somehow that penguin lives and cares for its chick despite being made entirely of dead stuff.  The principal of emergence is truly amazing, isn't it ?

[Sebastian Toe]

You can find out more about them in the divine revelations of the Christian bible.

The Devil's greatest ploy:
https://quoteinvestigator.com/2018/03/20/devil/

That doesn't answer the question.
Try again.

[Alan Burns]

Maybe not in a simple desktop-computer concept of 'programmed'.  But it is in all creatures that have perception, all visual perception for instance is mediated through the contents of consciousness, and visual perception is a form of knowledge.  Do you really think that a penguin knows nothing about its partner, or its chick, or about the distance to the ocean ?

We cannot claim to fully understand what goes on in the mind of a penguin.
Neither do we know just how a pigeon's homing instinct works.
They are both examples of God's creativity - as are we.

[Alan Burns]

That doesn't answer the question.
Try again.

Then you have not understood the answer.

[Sebastian Toe]

Then you have not understood the answer.

So, explain it to me in your own words rather than fob me off to a website.

[torridon]

We cannot claim to fully understand what goes on in the mind of a penguin.
Neither do we know just how a pigeon's homing instinct works.
They are both examples of God's creativity - as are we.

I never claimed we know everything, far from it, the sciences of the mind are in their infancy.  On the other hand that does not equate to being in total ignorance, and much of what we have come to understand about human brain function is from neuroimaging studies in monkeys, for instance.  There are plenty of free learning resources on the internet for those who wish to learn.

[torridon]

You can find out more about them in the divine revelations of the Christian bible.

The Devil's greatest ploy:
https://quoteinvestigator.com/2018/03/20/devil/

That link doesn't answer the question.  it is merely a site that attempts to attribute the origin of well known sayings; maybe you didn't even read it.  There is nothing in it about what techniques and powers the Devil allegedly is using, never mind any rationale for why an all powerful God would continue to sanction and tolerate that.  Is it by God's will that the Devil continues to operate, unrestrained, or is God powerless to intervene to save humans from his cunning machinations, whatever they are ?

[Gordon]

We cannot claim to fully understand what goes on in the mind of a penguin.
Neither do we know just how a pigeon's homing instinct works.
They are both examples of God's creativity evolution* - as are we.

*Fify

[Outrider]

And how would a complex series of reactions actually know they are a complex series of reactions.

By reacting to them.

O.

[Spud]

Is this conversation still about free will? If not, what's the question? (Sorry, too many posts to catch up on)

[Outrider]

Is this conversation still about free will? If not, what's the question? (Sorry, too many posts to catch up on)

It is.  I'd summarise, but you've not missed much.

Alan is still confusing his personal incredulity regarding the possibility that the brain could be responsible for consciousness with proof that the brain is not a possible source for consciousness, and he's going round and round in that circle to avoid addressing how the very concept of a will that is founded upon prior events can also be free of those prior events.

O.

[Spud]

It is.  I'd summarise, but you've not missed much.

Alan is still confusing his personal incredulity regarding the possibility that the brain could be responsible for consciousness with proof that the brain is not a possible source for consciousness, and he's going round and round in that circle to avoid addressing how the very concept of a will that is founded upon prior events can also be free of those prior events.

O.

Thanks. I had a few thoughts:

Without the spiritual awareness of my human soul I would know nothing.

As someone has stated above, penguins (for example) know things, like which is their mate, but I'm not sure that they are spiritually aware.
I've heard the spirit/soul defined as that part of us that becomes aware that the world doesn't revolve around 'me', there are others out there; it extends to an awareness that the material world is not all that exists. For example, I'm aware that I'm made up of nothing but atoms and molecules reacting with each other, however I am aware of an order in them that is always either increasing or decreasing, but always exists while something is alive. There's also order in the inanimate world, resulting from laws of physics and chemistry.
Whilst matter is evidence for God - how can something come from nothing - order is also evidence - how could order have happened by chance?
When you become conscious of God, then there is the possibility of something else influencing conscious decision making other than just the strongest physical stimulus. That awareness of God might fade as we become engrossed in an activity, or it might be consciously suppressed so that someone will eventually deny God exists.