Searching for GOD...

[ekim]

When you become conscious of God, then there is the possibility of something else influencing conscious decision making other than just the strongest physical stimulus. That awareness of God might fade as we become engrossed in an activity, or it might be consciously suppressed so that someone will eventually deny God exists.

There is a possibility, but to make the declaration 'conscious of God' you would need to show how you distinguish this as a reality as opposed to a mind forged image of a desired event.

[Gordon]

Thanks. I had a few thoughts:
As someone has stated above, penguins (for example) know things, like which is their mate, but I'm not sure that they are spiritually aware.

What is 'spiritual awareness'? Moreover, what does the 'spiritual' entail and how does one become aware of it?

I've heard the spirit/soul defined as that part of us that becomes aware that the world doesn't revolve around 'me', there are others out there; it extends to an awareness that the material world is not all that exists.

In which case, how do you detect the immaterial so as to confirm its existence?

For example, I'm aware that I'm made up of nothing but atoms and molecules reacting with each other, however I am aware of an order in them that is always either increasing or decreasing, but always exists while something is alive. There's also order in the inanimate world, resulting from laws of physics and chemistry.

Not sure what you mean by 'increasing and decreasing', but you are correct in that you (and everyone else) is made of atoms (and the component bits of atoms and the molecules that result from the interaction of atoms) - this isn't headline news, Spud.

Whilst matter is evidence for God - how can something come from nothing - order is also evidence - how could order have happened by chance?

You've obviously caught a dose of personal incredulity from reading Alan's posts, unless of course you were already infected.
 

When you become conscious of God, then there is the possibility of something else influencing conscious decision making other than just the strongest physical stimulus.

How would you test this possibility?
 

That awareness of God might fade as we become engrossed in an activity, or it might be consciously suppressed so that someone will eventually deny God exists.

Or perhaps, having given the matter some thought, we come to the conclusion that claims of 'God' are incoherent nonsense given the absence of any credible arguments to the contrary. We might also conclude that religions, and all the associated social and cultural baggage that goes with them, are just the organised results of what some people believe(d).

[torridon]

As someone has stated above, penguins (for example) know things, like which is their mate, but I'm not sure that they are spiritually aware.
I've heard the spirit/soul defined as that part of us that becomes aware that the world doesn't revolve around 'me', there are others out there; it extends to an awareness that the material world is not all that exists. For example, I'm aware that I'm made up of nothing but atoms and molecules reacting with each other, however I am aware of an order in them that is always either increasing or decreasing, but always exists while something is alive. There's also order in the inanimate world, resulting from laws of physics and chemistry.
Whilst matter is evidence for God - how can something come from nothing - order is also evidence - how could order have happened by chance?
When you become conscious of God, then there is the possibility of something else influencing conscious decision making other than just the strongest physical stimulus. That awareness of God might fade as we become engrossed in an activity, or it might be consciously suppressed so that someone will eventually deny God exists.

A multiplicity of dodgy assumptions in that.

Matter is evidence for God ? Really ?  Only if you believe in a divine matter-creator in the first place. Otherwise it does not necessarily follow, and the positing of a matter-creating God to explain the existence of matter only shifts the goal posts, to where did this matter-creating God come from. A matter-creating God Creator ?

order is also evidence - how could order have happened by chance? Order and spontaneous self-organisation occurs quite naturally. Even seen a snowfall ? Billions of instances of disordered water droplets self-organising into the ordered structure of snowflakes.

When you become conscious of God .... Awareness is a phenomenon of mind whose construction is driven largely by expectation.  If you are aware of something for which there is no objective evidence, then the chances are, it is all in the mind, as they say, a mirage owing to strong belief, and not something objectively real.

[Outrider]

I've heard the spirit/soul defined as that part of us that becomes aware that the world doesn't revolve around 'me', there are others out there; it extends to an awareness that the material world is not all that exists.

That would suggest, from my experience, that kids don't have souls until somewhere around 3 or 4, and that some autistics never do?

Whilst matter is evidence for God - how can something come from nothing - order is also evidence - how could order have happened by chance?

That's quite an unwarranted leap - matter is evidence of order, arguably, which resolves this into a single point: is 'order' evidence of God?  Order is evidence of an underlying consistent ruleset, but it doesn't go any further than that to show whether that's an unthinking, unknowing manifestation of nature or if it's the deliberate 'gift' of a conscious creator - it doesn't rule it out, at all, but it doesn't necessarily lead to 'a god'.
 

When you become conscious of God, then there is the possibility of something else influencing conscious decision making other than just the strongest physical stimulus.

Presumably, if God is real, that power is available regardless of conscious awareness or belief - I presume you God, in your estimation, could influence me even though I don't believe?  That's neither a point for or against, but if it's not the case and God can only influence the believers then we get the possibility that the effect derives not from the god, but from the belief.

That awareness of God might fade as we become engrossed in an activity, or it might be consciously suppressed so that someone will eventually deny God exists.

I'm not sure I understand how you can 'consciously suppress' what you believe - my beliefs aren't a conscious choice, they're the result of my interpretation of the available data.  I can't 'choose' to revert to a Newtonian understanding of gravity, I can't 'choose' to believe that the Crimea is legitimately part of Russia and I can't 'choose' whether or not I believe in any gods.

O.

[Alan Burns]

Quote from: Alan Burns on July 21, 2020, 05:15:21 PM

    And how would a complex series of reactions actually know they are a complex series of reactions.

By reacting to them.

O.

It looks like you are getting into a form of infinite regress here.
It is the reason why I consider it to be an impossibility for reactions alone to be capable of defining a single entity of conscious awareness.

[Outrider]

By reacting to them.

It doesn't need to be infinite,  you just have to accept that the mental activity that constitutes consciousness isn't something qualitatively different from other types of brain activity, it's a subjectively different and quantitatively different example of the same thing.

It is the reason why I consider it to be an impossibility for reactions alone to be capable of defining a single entity of conscious awareness.

Only because you've already presumed that it can't be 'just' more thought, it has to be something different.

O.

[Gordon]

By reacting to them.

O.

It looks like you are getting into a form of infinite regress here.

Nope: some aspects of mental activity are episodic, where some mental processes aren't active when your biology is in certain states - sleep being an obvious example.

It is the reason why I consider it to be an impossibility for reactions alone to be capable of defining a single entity of conscious awareness.

But that's just your incredulity (and your predisposition to fallacious thinking in general) getting the better of you - again.

[Roses]

Thanks. I had a few thoughts:
As someone has stated above, penguins (for example) know things, like which is their mate, but I'm not sure that they are spiritually aware.
I've heard the spirit/soul defined as that part of us that becomes aware that the world doesn't revolve around 'me', there are others out there; it extends to an awareness that the material world is not all that exists. For example, I'm aware that I'm made up of nothing but atoms and molecules reacting with each other, however I am aware of an order in them that is always either increasing or decreasing, but always exists while something is alive. There's also order in the inanimate world, resulting from laws of physics and chemistry.
Whilst matter is evidence for God - how can something come from nothing - order is also evidence - how could order have happened by chance?
When you become conscious of God, then there is the possibility of something else influencing conscious decision making other than just the strongest physical stimulus. That awareness of God might fade as we become engrossed in an activity, or it might be consciously suppressed so that someone will eventually deny God exists.

There is nothing you have stated that is evidence for god, imo.

[Alan Burns]

I'm not sure I understand how you can 'consciously suppress' what you believe - my beliefs aren't a conscious choice, they're the result of my interpretation of the available data.  I can't 'choose' to revert to a Newtonian understanding of gravity, I can't 'choose' to believe that the Crimea is legitimately part of Russia and I can't 'choose' whether or not I believe in any gods.

O.

But you can choose to seek reasons to believe rather than reasons not to believe.

I know I had a flying start to finding reasons to believe by my early upbringing in a Christian environment.  However many of my peer group drifted away from their faith for various reasons.  And I have come across several people who began their lives as confirmed atheists, but who discovered God later in life.  I am in agreement with the views expressed by CS Lewis in being convinced that the secular drift in our modern society is a result of people being deceived by the forces of evil which are prevalent in this world.

[torridon]

I know I had a flying start to finding reasons to believe by my early upbringing in a Christian environment.  However many of my peer group drifted away from their faith for various reasons.  And I have come across several people who began their lives as confirmed atheists, but who discovered God later in life.  I am in agreement with the views expressed by CS Lewis in being convinced that the secular drift in our modern society is a result of people being deceived by the forces of evil which are prevalent in this world.

Immediate logic fail, yet again : an interventionist benign god would not let these forces of evil loose upon the world in the first place.  Incoherent self-contradictory logic is not likely to win people over, really.

[bluehillside Retd.]

AB,

But you can choose to seek reasons to believe rather than reasons not to believe.

At an experiential but not explanatory level you can so “choose”, yes. You’d have much more success though in doing neither, and rather in examining the arguments used to justify beliefs rationally and objectively. And when you find the argument to be false or not there at all, then you have a sound basis to conclude that there’s no good reason to accept the belief as true. 

I know I had a flying start to finding reasons to believe by my early upbringing in a Christian environment.

No you didn’t. “Finding reasons to believe” is an open door to confirmation bias, and is very likely therefore to lead you to wrong conclusions.
 

However many of my peer group drifted away from their faith for various reasons.

Yes, they had REASONS. The question here though is, why didn’t you?

And I have come across several people who began their lives as confirmed atheists, but who discovered God later in life.

It’s a belief in “God”, and it’s "gods" (plural) too as sometimes people lose or suspend their critical faculties and accept as true any manner of un-evidenced faith claims.

I am in agreement with the views expressed by CS Lewis in being convinced that the secular drift in our modern society is a result of people being deceived by the forces of evil which are prevalent in this world.

Or rather perhaps because people are better educated, religions have a less intrusive role in public life (especially in schools), and the harm pious people do in the names of their various faiths is better reported so the ludicrousness and dangers of the religious enterprise are more obvious. 

[Gordon]

But you can choose to seek reasons to believe rather than reasons not to believe.

Nope - I only need look at the reasons offered by those claiming 'God' and, having found them to be either nonsensical or incoherent, I can reasonably dismiss the 'God' claim. I need no other or specific reasons 'not to believe'.

I know I had a flying start to finding reasons to believe by my early upbringing in a Christian environment.

Therefore, you are at risk of confirmation bias.

However many of my peer group drifted away from their faith for various reasons.

Therefore they had reasons for doing so: possibly they developed a more critical or sceptical approach to religious claims, or became less influenced by religious traditions as they matured - you'd have to ask them why.

And I have come across several people who began their lives as confirmed atheists, but who discovered God later in life.

No doubt, and no doubt others have travelled in the opposite direction too.

I am in agreement with the views expressed by CS Lewis in being convinced that the secular drift in our modern society is a result of people being deceived by the forces of evil which are prevalent in this world.

I don't doubt you do, since that explanation suits your biases, but the notion of 'forces of evil' is just as much supernatural bollocks as is 'God'.

[Sebastian Toe]

......being convinced that the secular drift in our modern society is a result of people being deceived by the forces of evil which are prevalent in this world.

..so far you have pointed at a web page which suggests that Satan has convinced the world, but not you, that he does not exist.
Maybe now you can explain what "the forces of evil" actually are, how they can be detected, what they do and how they do it?
Surely it is incumbent on you to impart your knowledge of these things?

[Owlswing]

But you can choose to seek reasons to believe rather than reasons not to believe.

I know I had a flying start to finding reasons to believe by my early upbringing in a Christian environment.  However many of my peer group drifted away from their faith for various reasons.  And I have come across several people who began their lives as confirmed atheists, but who discovered God later in life.  I am in agreement with the views expressed by CS Lewis in being convinced that the secular drift in our modern society is a result of people being deceived by the forces of evil which are prevalent in this world.

I am a Pagan. Hence I worship a plethora of deities which seems far more likely to be the case rather than one deity covering everything.

However, there is a very basic other difference between your belief and mine.

You are convinced that you God is a fact - a fact for which, apart from a totally discredited book, discredited to everyone except the blinkered and brainwashed (from infancy onward) Chrisdtains.

I and most Pagans make no such claim, we are perfectly prepared to acknowledge that the deities we worship ARE A MATTER OF FAITH NOT FACT.

You might find your beliefs more acceptable if you could dump that benighted book and think likewise!

At the moment the Gods of the Discworld are more believable than the God of the Christians!

[Nearly Sane]

I am a Pagan. Hence I worship a plethora of deities which seems far more likely to be the case rather than one deity covering everything.
....

No clue as  how you work out the probabilities on claims  here.

[Alan Burns]

..so far you have pointed at a web page which suggests that Satan has convinced the world, but not you, that he does not exist.
Maybe now you can explain what "the forces of evil" actually are, how they can be detected, what they do and how they do it?
Surely it is incumbent on you to impart your knowledge of these things?

You can look upon world history to see the power of evil and how it manifests through influencing the will of people.  And you can look upon the minority who have endeavoured to put into practice the words our Saviour gave us in order to combat this evil by calling upon His divine power.  This world is a battleground of good versus evil.

[Nearly Sane]

You can look upon world history to see the power of evil and how it manifests through influencing the will of people.  And you can look upon the minority who have endeavoured to put into practice the words our Saviour gave us in order to combat this evil by calling upon His divine power.  This world is a battleground of good versus evil.

Complete non sequitur

[Sebastian Toe]

Influencing the will of people. 

How does it do that?
If you know how it does it then you can recognise it and prevent it?

[torridon]

You can look upon world history to see the power of evil and how it manifests through influencing the will of people.  And you can look upon the minority who have endeavoured to put into practice the words our Saviour gave us in order to combat this evil by calling upon His divine power.  This world is a battleground of good versus evil.

That still doesn't explain why God permits this nor why, as creator, he creates evil in the first place, and then sits back and expects humans to combat the evil that be created in the first place.  This just doesn't begin to make any sense at all to me.  I think you are very, very confused.

[Gordon]

You can look upon world history to see the power of evil and how it manifests through influencing the will of people.  And you can look upon the minority who have endeavoured to put into practice the words our Saviour gave us in order to combat this evil by calling upon His divine power.  This world is a battleground of good versus evil.

As I read this hyperbole of yours, it occurred to me that your next sentence could well be along the lines of:

"When Mr Bilbo Baggins of Bag End announced that he would shortly be celebrating his eleventyifirst birthday with a party of special magnificence, there was much talk and excitement in Hobbiton."

[Outrider]

But you can choose to seek reasons to believe rather than reasons not to believe.

You shouldn't be going into a quest for knowledge with preconceptions - you seek to find what's there, not what you want.

I know I had a flying start to finding reasons to believe by my early upbringing in a Christian environment.  However many of my peer group drifted away from their faith for various reasons.  And I have come across several people who began their lives as confirmed atheists, but who discovered God later in life.  I am in agreement with the views expressed by CS Lewis in being convinced that the secular drift in our modern society is a result of people being deceived by the forces of evil which are prevalent in this world.

As a point of note, secular isn't the same as atheist or non-religious - secular means arranging things such that religion isn't favoured or disfavoured.  If there weren't religious people, there wouldn't be secularism, because you'd have nothing to worry about disfavouring.

As to whether 'the forces of evil' are deceiving people, why is it that religiosity so strongly negatively correlates with happiness?  Could it be that people who are unhappy are clinging to religion despite the lack of any real evidence or effect, and people with the luxury of not needing something to buoy their spirits artificially have the freedom to let it go?

O.

[Alan Burns]

As to whether 'the forces of evil' are deceiving people, why is it that religiosity so strongly negatively correlates with happiness?  Could it be that people who are unhappy are clinging to religion despite the lack of any real evidence or effect, and people with the luxury of not needing something to buoy their spirits artificially have the freedom to let it go?

I can't agree with your observation that religiosity strongly negatively correlates with happiness.  Many of my fellow Christians are the happiest, most content people I know.  The image of the guilt ridden Christian is far away from the norm in my lifetime experience of meeting thousands of very happy Christians.

[Outrider]

I can't agree with your observation that religiosity strongly negatively correlates with happiness.

With a worldwide data-set, however, we see that the happier nations tend to be those with fewer people reporting that religion is any or a significant part of their lives.  It's a complicated picture, though; within a number of countries - particularly those with higher self-reported levels of religiosity - there is the opposite finding that the non-religious tend to be less happy than the religious, but people tend to be less happy overall.

Many of my fellow Christians are the happiest, most content people I know.

I'd suggest, however, that many of the Christians you know are living in a relatively peaceful, healthy, first-world situation and have fewer reasons to be unhappy with their lives - not none, but fewer.

The image of the guilt ridden Christian is far away from the norm in my lifetime experience of meeting thousands of very happy Christians.

I don't think it's about guilt, I think it's about having a life that's lacking and looking for something that will in some way make that 'alright' - such as this is only a prelude to something greater, this is suffering to 'earn' a better afterlife (I appreciate that the theology isn't necessarily that clear).

In the particularly religious countries the ostracism of being non-religious may be accounting for some of the unhappiness (and vice versa in the non-religious countries) and it's one of the other non-religious correlations (wealth, formal education, health and wellbeing) that's the factor that's causatively related to both happiness and religiosity.

Regardless of whether it's causative, though, the statistics suggest that if you're seeking to be happy then looking for religion isn't likely to be the solution, particularly in more affluent, healthier, better-educated parts of the world.

O.

[Nearly Sane]

I can't agree with your observation that religiosity strongly negatively correlates with happiness.  Many of my fellow Christians are the happiest, most content people I know.  The image of the guilt ridden Christian is far away from the norm in my lifetime experience of meeting thousands of very happy Christians.

Here AB have some supporting stats on me

https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/how-happiness/200806/happiness-and-religion-happiness-religion


https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2019/01/31/are-religious-people-happier-healthier-our-new-global-study-explores-this-question/

[Alan Burns]

Immediate logic fail, yet again : an interventionist benign god would not let these forces of evil loose upon the world in the first place.  Incoherent self-contradictory logic is not likely to win people over, really.

Sorry, but it is your personal conception of logic which fails here.
You are presuming that you know better than our Creator in how He should be running things.
If bad things did not happen, we would all be prone to indulging in self centred desires with no need to help each other.
I am certain that our capacity to love and be loved is central to God's plan - but giving us all everything we need right from the start without ever encountering and overcoming hardships would not fit with God's plan for us.  If our children never experienced hardship or needed their parent's help - would there be any love between parent and child?  We are all imperfect and live in an imperfect world, and we need to call upon God's love for us to deal with these imperfections.  We are not in heaven yet.

Yes, God could easily "win us over" if He so wished, but would we be better people for being won over in the way you conceive?