Searching for GOD...

[ekim]

..anyhoo we are digressing from a far more important topic on this thread.
The ...forces of evil....
Alan is yet to disclose how to recognise them, how they actually influence us and what we should do with that knowledge .... once he has imparted it upon us.

After all, our eternal souls are at risk and he seems reticent in helping!

I am beginning to be suspicious of his motives!

Here is a possible explanation which is based upon the prime objective of aligning one's life to the Will of the God which is worshiped.  The word in the New Testament translated as 'sin' is hamartia which means 'missing the mark or the way' (deviate) in such a venture.  The forces of evil are those which cause the worshipper to deviate and are represented in the Bible by words such as Satan representing opposition and temptation.  Examples might be others of a different persuasion might create opposition to, say, a Christian worshipper.  As regards temptation, this was exemplified by Jesus, after his religious practices, being tempted to believe he had supernatural powers and should demonstrate them to others.  You recognise them within your self as they tend to be egotistical in nature and what you should do is turn away from them and return to the straight and narrow through your religious practice.

[bluehillside Retd.]

Perce,

Masturbatory scientism.

So no argument of your own then?

I guess stupid just got stupider. 

[Sebastian Toe]

These digressions highlight many things humanity does not know or does not understand.
We do not know how the universe began.
We do not know what is beyond our universe.
We do not comprehend the existence of infinity in time and/or space.
We do not know how conscious awareness can emerge from material reactions.
We do not know what conscious awareness is.
We do not know how anything can come into existence from nothing.

It would appear that the more we try to make sense of our existence, the more we discover that we do not know.

So I stick to the things I do know:
I know that I exist.
I know I have a will of my own.
I know God loves me.
I know God made Himself known to me through Jesus Christ.
I know God suffered and died to take away my sin and bring me eternal life.

All very nice.
However you also know that there are forces of evil or did I misinterpret your statements?

[torridon]

I know that I exist.
I know I have a will of my own.
I know God loves me.
I know God made Himself known to me through Jesus Christ.
I know God suffered and died to take away my sin and bring me eternal life.

I think pretty much everybody signs up to the first two.

The last three are not knowledge, they are beliefs, and beliefs vary from person to person, place to place, culture to culture, and over time.  Sloppy thinking to conflate knowledge with beliefs.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Belief

[bluehillside Retd.]

AB,

I know God loves me.
I know God made Himself known to me through Jesus Christ.
I know God suffered and died to take away my sin and bring me eternal life.

How do you know these things rather than just believe them to be true as articles of faith? 

[ippy]

Wow, classic case of selective interpretations - we 'know' what conscious awareness is to at least the same degree that you 'know' you have a will of your own, and certainly with far more certainty than anyone can claim to 'know' about Jesus, sin or Gods.

You keep failing to differentiate between the profundity of your belief and knowledge - it's not about how certain you are, but whether that certainty is in any way justifiable.

O.

Alan, you've 'never' yes that's right 'never' shown, expressed in writing here on this forum of any supportable evidence that could possibly back up the following assertions you've made.

I know God loves me.
I know God made Himself known to me through Jesus Christ.
I know God suffered and died to take away my sin and bring me eternal life.

The wording you have used in these statements of yours suggests to me, there is quiet a strong smell of indoctrination starting right from your earliest days of childhood and since there is no verifiable evidence been found anywhere to date that would support these ideas of yours why on earth do you still insist on holding them?

These beliefs of yours you hold without the necessary supporting evidence does not reflect the thoughts of a rational thinker Alan.

Commiserations to you Alan, ippy.

[Alan Burns]

All very nice.
However you also know that there are forces of evil or did I misinterpret your statements?

I know evil exists because I know good exists.
You can't know one without the other.

[Alan Burns]

AB,

How do you know these things rather than just believe them to be true as articles of faith?

You will never understand my certainty from outside.
"Knock and the door will be opened unto you."  Matthew 7:7 (from the sermon on the mount)

[Outrider]

You will never understand my certainty from outside.
"Knock and the door will be opened unto you."  Matthey 7:7 (from the sermon on the mount)

If your certainty is only viable on the inside then you don't 'know' because we are all intellectually and cognitively fallible in innumberable ways.  Unless you're reliant on some sort of external, verifiable, measurable source all you have is opinion and faith, neither of which is 'knowledge'.

O.

[Alan Burns]

If your certainty is only viable on the inside then you don't 'know' because we are all intellectually and cognitively fallible in innumberable ways.  Unless you're reliant on some sort of external, verifiable, measurable source all you have is opinion and faith, neither of which is 'knowledge'.

O.

You cannot measure or verify faith in the way you are suggesting.
Yes, we are all fallible - but there is a basic fundamental truth which will enlighten us to the meaning and purpose behind our existence, and you will know it when you find it.

[Outrider]

You cannot measure or verify faith in the way you are suggesting.

The point I was making was that we can't measure or verify faith at all - as an indication of how 'correct' something might be it's a useless metric.

Yes, we are all fallible - but there is a basic fundamental truth which will enlighten us to the meaning and purpose behind our existence, and you will know it when you find it.

Yes, we're all fallible, but let's say I'm equally as profoundly certain that there isn't a basic fundamental spiritual truth and that you're just a wacko who hear's voices - why is your 'certainty' and more valid than mine?  We both 'know' to the same depth, but mutually contradictory things - given that we have exactly as much evidence, then we know that much evidence isn't sufficient (because we'd both be right if it were) so it's not 'knowledge'.

You don't 'know' this - you believe it whole-heartedly, but that's not knowledge.

O.

[SusanDoris]

You will never understand my certainty from outside.
"Knock and the door will be opened unto you."  Matthew 7:7 (from the sermon on the mount)

More endless drivel. It wouldn't be quite so bad if there was some element of sharpness or just a glimmer of rationality, but no, it goes on being  bland, banal and, unfortunately, saccharine.

[bluehillside Retd.]

AB,

I know evil exists because I know good exists.
You can't know one without the other.

No, what you “know” is that it's observably the case that desirable and undesirable events occur. “Good” and “evil” in the personified religious sense you’re attempting is just a narrative you find persuasive, much as child might who runs into a branch might say “that tree hit me”. 

You will never understand my certainty from outside.
"Knock and the door will be opened unto you."  Matthew 7:7 (from the sermon on the
mount)

First, you’re just repeating your expression of faith without making an argument that would justify the claim.

Second though, as your only purpose here seems to be to evangelise (albeit that you’ve picked the wrong demographic for that) then why try it with beliefs that, apparently, can’t be “understood from outside”?

Tell you what, why not try the question that Vlad always ran away from a while back no matter how many times it was asked: if I lined up ten people before breakfast (nine plus you) and each of them told me with equal conviction they were certain of their different beliefs that were written in “holy” books, why should I take your assertions any more seriously than I should take those of the other nine?     

You cannot measure or verify faith in the way you are suggesting.
Yes, we are all fallible - but there is a basic fundamental truth which will enlighten us to the meaning and purpose behind our existence, and you will know it when you find it.

But what you’re actually being asked to justify here is your claim that you “know” something rather than just happen to believe it to be true. Why can’t you do that and, as you apparently can’t, why in that case should anyone take your claims and assertions seriously? 

[ippy]

I know evil exists because I know good exists.
You can't know one without the other.

Do you ever listen to yourself and hear the voices that planted these irrational thoughts into your head and then assuming you do hear these voices in your memory you must hear yourself quoting these very words, probably verbatim too.

I still hear the lecturers voice with the various directional advice they were giving me in my ear when performing various tasks it must be similar for you where your religious beliefs are concerned the only difference would be that at least my arts and craft works are useful.

Try to come up with something that is, assuming you could, if you could find anything that might make your assertions sound rational Alan.

Commiserations Alan, ippy.

[Gordon]

You cannot measure or verify faith in the way you are suggesting.

How convenient for you: but logic is applicable, and on that basis your claim fails.

Yes, we are all fallible - but there is a basic fundamental truth which will enlighten us to the meaning and purpose behind our existence, and you will know it when you find it.

Yet more question-begging from you.

[Dicky Underpants]

So I stick to the things I do know:
I know that I exist.
I know I have a will of my own.
I know God loves me.
I know God made Himself known to me through Jesus Christ.
I know God suffered and died to take away my sin and bring me eternal life.

As bh and others have pointed out, the last three are simply but unquestionably beliefs. The last two are entirely dependent on the theology of St Paul (itself inconsistent), and the later developed doctrine of the Trinity.
The last one is totally meaningless as a sentence in English and  certainly senseless to all non-believers. I would ask you to reflect further on the meaning of the words "God died". (Apart from his not  being alive in the first place of course)

[Dicky Underpants]

I know evil exists because I know good exists.
You can't know one without the other.

Yet according to your faith there was a time when there was only good, and no doubt you believe such a state will exist again. Yet evil came to be. And evil can therefore come to be again (unless your God restrains  free will) I'm speaking purely within the parameters of your belief system.
That we can't live without bias or opposites, I'd freely concede, but that doesn't involve conjuring up Old Nick.

[Alan Burns]

No, what you “know” is that it's observably the case that desirable and undesirable events occur. “Good” and “evil” in the personified religious sense you’re attempting is just a narrative you find persuasive, much as child might who runs into a branch might say “that tree hit me”. 

I recognise good and bad things done by people's use of their own free will - not by trees.

First, you’re just repeating your expression of faith without making an argument that would justify the claim.
Second though, as your only purpose here seems to be to evangelise (albeit that you’ve picked the wrong demographic for that) then why try it with beliefs that, apparently, can’t be “understood from outside”?

I am encouraging people to "knock on the door" rather than seek reasons to turn away.

Tell you what, why not try the question that Vlad always ran away from a while back no matter how many times it was asked: if I lined up ten people before breakfast (nine plus you) and each of them told me with equal conviction they were certain of their different beliefs that were written in “holy” books, why should I take your assertions any more seriously than I should take those of the other nine?     

There can be only one truth.  The fact that many people believe different things can't be a reason to not seek the truth.

But what you’re actually being asked to justify here is your claim that you “know” something rather than just happen to believe it to be true. Why can’t you do that and, as you apparently can’t, why in that case should anyone take your claims and assertions seriously?

I can't share my relationship with God.  I can only encourage people to seek their own relationship with God, and hopefully discover the profound reality of their own spiritual nature which comes from God.

[Outrider]

I am encouraging people to "knock on the door" rather than seek reasons to turn away.

The problem is though that there are thousands of doors to be knocked on, they all appear to be just paintings of doors on walls, and even if they weren't what you allege is on the other side doesn't sound appealing and is at odds with what I already understand about this side of the door..

There can be only one truth.

That seems likely.

The fact that many people believe different things can't be a reason to not seek the truth.

The fact that billions of people believe, just as profoundly as you, something different to you surely has to make you at least question though whether your understanding of the 'truth' could be limited.

I can't share my relationship with God.

Schizophrenics find that they struggle to share their convictions about the nature of reality too, which they believe just as profoundly as you do.

I can only encourage people to seek their own relationship with God, and hopefully discover the profound reality of their own spiritual nature which comes from God.

I can only encourage you to engage with reality and seek a relationship with it to discover the profound reality of.... reality.

O.

[Sebastian Toe]

I know evil exists because I know good exists.
You can't know one without the other.

Again, not answering the question.

A reminder of one of your previous statements...

I am in agreement with the views expressed by CS Lewis in being convinced that the secular drift in our modern society is a result of people being deceived by the forces of evil which are prevalent in this world.

My question to you was and still is
What specifically are "the forces of evil", and how specifically do they deceive people?

It's a pretty straight forward query.
So far you have responded that you use prayer to recognise evil and that you know that evil exists...because good exists.
What you have singularly failed to do is address the actual question.

How on earth you are going to manage to persuade people about your message if you blatantly avoid answering straight forward questions?

Do you have a hidden agenda?
Are you possibly an agent of those "forces of evil "?
Both are possibilities based on your responses thus far!

[bluehillside Retd.]

AB,

I recognise good and bad things done by people's use of their own free will - not by trees.

And yet many undesirable things happen with no human cause at all. Would a tsunami sweeping away all the men, women and children in a village be “evil” in the personified sense you’re implying? If you think it would, you’re firmly in “that tree hit me“ territory. 

I am encouraging people to "knock on the door" rather than seek reasons to turn away.

And no doubt lots of other people with faiths different from yours would do the same for their “doors” too. Trouble is though, so far at least you've given us no good reasons to think there’s anything behind your door, or even that you have a good enough reason to justify your own belief that there is. Perhaps you should start with that problem before expecting people just to go a’knocking?

There can be only one truth.  The fact that many people believe different things can't be a reason to not seek the truth.

No-one said seeking truth is a bad thing. What you’re being asked to do though is to provide some arguments that are’t hopeless that would indicate that you’ve found it. So far, all you've demonstrated is that you believe some things very strongly for very bad reasons.

I can't share my relationship with God.

And nor it seems can you share a sound reason for anyone – least of all you – to think you have such a “relationship” at all.

I can only encourage people to seek their own relationship with God, and hopefully discover the profound reality of their own spiritual nature which comes from God.

I don’t doubt that you sincerely believe that to be the case. If you can’t think of a single good reason though for anyone else to think that you’re not hopelessly mistaken about that, why should they believe you?   

[Spud]

Fair enough.

Depends on your interpretation of 'made' - if it occurs naturally, like rain, without a conscious input is that 'made'?  There is an outside possibility that it's in some way infinite and didn't 'start' at all, although I'm not in that camp mysefl.

I don't see how that follows. Rain falls, consistently, which is an example of 'order' but isn't indicative of a conscious controlling influence.  Order is necessary for something to be stable enough for us to emerge within it, but that's not evidence for a conscious creator, it's just evidence that the current stability of natural laws has been the case for some time.

I've heard this argument from believers of a number of stripes, that at some level there are some (in some formulations, all) atheists who actually 'know' that it's true but somehow push it down?  Quite apart from how patronising that is to level at someone, I've not come across anyone who admits fitting into that category; there are believers who follow what they feel are the precepts of their faith, believers who think they should but admit that they fail to one degree or another, and non-believers.  I don't know of anyone who describes themselves as a believer that deliberately flouts the rules.

O.

Sorry to sound patronising, sometimes it's easy to slip into thinking that intelligent design seems so obvious that anyone who denies it must be suppressing the fact of it.

Rain wouldn't be possible if the earth wasn't the right distance from the sun - it would either be ice or vapourize. Shall we say it has the appearance of having been designed ('made' prompts the question of how, which I don't know)? The alternative would be that it wasn't designed but came about by chance, which is fine if it were just one aspect, but there seem to be countless examples of apparent design. Really the only reason I can see for not believing in a designer is that we can't see one.

[Alan Burns]

I can only encourage you to engage with reality and seek a relationship with it to discover the profound reality of.... reality.

O.

The portion of reality which can be discovered in human scientific endeavours bears no comparison with the reality to be discovered by entering into a relationship with the ultimate source of all reality.

[ippy]

I recognise good and bad things done by people's use of their own free will - not by trees.I am encouraging people to "knock on the door" rather than seek reasons to turn away.There can be only one truth.  The fact that many people believe different things can't be a reason to not seek the truth.I can't share my relationship with God.  I can only encourage people to seek their own relationship with God, and hopefully discover the profound reality of their own spiritual nature which comes from God.

I see you still haven't managed to qualify any of your many assertions Alan, what's happend to that supposedly high I Q of yours?

Commiserations Alan, ippy.

[ippy]

Sorry to sound patronising, sometimes it's easy to slip into thinking that intelligent design seems so obvious that anyone who denies it must be suppressing the fact of it.

Rain wouldn't be possible if the earth wasn't the right distance from the sun - it would either be ice or vapourize. Shall we say it has the appearance of having been designed ('made' prompts the question of how, which I don't know)? The alternative would be that it wasn't designed but came about by chance, which is fine if it were just one aspect, but there seem to be countless examples of appatent design. Really the only reason I can see for not believing in a designer is that we can't see one.

Spud, your post reminds me of that story about the demise of the Dodo.

ippy.