Author Topic: Searching for GOD...  (Read 3892278 times)

Gordon

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #41550 on: August 30, 2020, 11:39:11 AM »
If you read the bible with the intention of finding fault, you will no doubt find them in abundance.

Try reading the bible with an open mind to allow the true intended meaning to penetrate your mind, heart and soul - and you may discover the reason why many millions have devoted their lives to God.  The divinely inspired words of scripture do not only provide the foundation upon which the Christian faith has grown over the last two thousand years - they provide the foundation for life itself.

You churn out these fallacy-fests with such ease that you should be worried.

bluehillside Retd.

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #41551 on: August 30, 2020, 11:51:48 AM »
AB,

Quote
If you read the bible with the intention of finding fault, you will no doubt find them in abundance.

First, why wouldn’t you read any truth-claiming text with your critical faculties engaged?

Second, if you think there’s a faultless god whose wishes are accurately recorded in some books why would those books have faults “in abundance” in the first place? How would you know which bits are faulty and which bits aren’t?

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Try reading the bible with an open mind to allow the true intended meaning to penetrate your mind, heart and soul - and you may discover the reason why many millions have devoted their lives to God.

Try reading the Koran with an open mind to allow the true intended meaning to penetrate your mind, heart and soul - and you may discover the reason why many millions have devoted their lives to Allah.

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The divinely inspired words of scripture do not only provide the foundation upon which the Christian faith has grown over the last two thousand years - they provide the foundation for life itself.

Only for the lives of people who want that to be their “foundation”. Some of us though care more about what’s demonstrably true.   
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God

Roses

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #41552 on: August 30, 2020, 11:52:14 AM »
If you read the bible with the intention of finding fault, you will no doubt find them in abundance.

Try reading the bible with an open mind to allow the true intended meaning to penetrate your mind, heart and soul - and you may discover the reason why many millions have devoted their lives to God.  The divinely inspired words of scripture do not only provide the foundation upon which the Christian faith has grown over the last two thousand years - they provide the foundation for life itself.

If god exists and divinely inspired the writing of that book, it made a very poor job of it! There is so much in the Bible which should be questioned, as it is much less than credible. The description of the god character does it no favours at all, it comes over as an evil psycho.
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Stranger

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #41553 on: August 30, 2020, 11:57:31 AM »
If you read the bible with the intention of finding fault, you will no doubt find them in abundance.

The first time I read the bible (all of it) I fully expected to find the message of the church I was briefly involved in (because of my family) as a young teenager. Not only did I not find that, I didn't find any coherent message at all. Reading the bible was the start of the end of my brief period of being a believer.

Also, if it's a message from a god, why would anybody be able to find any faults in it at all, even if they start out looking for them? Is your god so incompetent it can't even arrange for its written message to be obviously clear and self-consistent?

Try reading the bible with an open mind...

I suggest you try that. Rather than reading it in order to confirm what you already think you know.

...to allow the true intended meaning to penetrate your mind, heart and soul - and you may discover the reason why many millions have devoted their lives to God.  The divinely inspired words of scripture do not only provide the foundation upon which the Christian faith has grown over the last two thousand years - they provide the foundation for life itself.

People generally don't read it until they are at least in a state of mind in which they want it to mean something, and, if you cherry-pick enough, you can see pretty much any message you want - hence all the endless cults, sects, and denominations that all claim to base their beliefs on the bible.
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Enki

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #41554 on: August 30, 2020, 12:06:56 PM »
It is more than just belief.
Listen to Stormzy's lyrics (btw I am not a fan of rap singers) and see how they are describing an experience of God.
Perhaps you could come to believe after having a real experience of God in your life.
The trouble is that you can't experience God if you do not allow Him into your life.
You could try opening the door to God instead of shutting Him out by finding reasons not to believe in Him.

No. Alan, it's just belief.

I have had non religious experiences, but I certainly don't rely on them to justify my non belief in God.

I have found no evidence for the existence of God, and that coupled with the huge inconsistencies in the doctrines and theology surrounding Christianity has led me to having a lack of belief  where God has no particular significance in my life. Furthermore, in broad terms, I see no evidence of greater fulfillment of the lives of Christians compared with other religious and non religious communities.

I don't shut the door to God and I don't simply find reasons to not believe in Him. By  repeating such dubious statements you simply leave yourself open to being considered disingenuous in your approach.
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Sebastian Toe

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #41555 on: August 30, 2020, 12:56:55 PM »
If you read the bible with the intention of finding fault, you will no doubt find them in abundance.

Try reading the bible with an open mind to allow the true intended meaning to penetrate your mind, heart and soul - and you may discover the reason why many millions have devoted their lives to God.  The divinely inspired words of scripture do not only provide the foundation upon which the Christian faith has grown over the last two thousand years - they provide the foundation for life itself.
Take people who truely believe that they have read the bible with an open mind to allow the true intended meaning to penetrate their mind, heart and soul -
----yet found a completely different result to yourself.
Who amongst you have found the one truth?
« Last Edit: August 30, 2020, 12:59:45 PM by Sebastian Toe »
"The word God is for me nothing more than the expression and product of human weaknesses, the Bible a collection of honourable, but still primitive legends.'
Albert Einstein

ippy

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #41556 on: August 30, 2020, 01:28:55 PM »
It is more than just belief.
Listen to Stormzy's lyrics (btw I am not a fan of rap singers) and see how they are describing an experience of God.
Perhaps you could come to believe after having a real experience of God in your life.
The trouble is that you can't experience God if you do not allow Him into your life.
You could try opening the door to God instead of shutting Him out by finding reasons not to believe in Him.

O K Alan, this experience of god you're always on about where's the evidence that the experience you say you have is in fact Mr or Ms god calling, it might be Mr Satan how would you or anyone else know the difference?

Commiserations to you Alan, ippy.

torridon

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #41557 on: August 30, 2020, 01:58:58 PM »
If you read the bible with the intention of finding fault, you will no doubt find them in abundance.

Try reading the bible with an open mind to allow the true intended meaning to penetrate your mind, heart and soul - and you may discover the reason why many millions have devoted their lives to God.  The divinely inspired words of scripture do not only provide the foundation upon which the Christian faith has grown over the last two thousand years - they provide the foundation for life itself.

In other words, ditch your objectivity.

Ditch your critical reasoning skills.

You can't see any problems with that ?

Owlswing

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #41558 on: August 30, 2020, 02:14:55 PM »

Alan

If your interpretation of the Bible is correct in all respects, could you please explain to me why the number of Christians, according to the Census and various other similar information gatherings, is dropping like a stone?

Is God losing his grip the minds on Western humanity?   
The Holy Bible, probably the most diabolical work of fiction ever to be visited upon mankind.

An it harm none, do what you will; an it harm some, do what you must!

Alan Burns

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #41559 on: August 30, 2020, 04:24:17 PM »
Having experience of something for which there is no objective evidence is pretty much the textbook definition of delusion.  Maybe that is why not everyone wants to 'go there'.
The evidence of God is truly overwhelming.
The problem is that we are so immersed in God's creation that we take it all for granted and call it "natural".
How can you say a person who has had personal experience of God in their lives is deluded?
You cannot pass judgement on other people's experiences unless you have had the same experience yourself.
The truth will set you free  - John 8:32
Truth is not an abstraction, but a person - Edith Stein
Free will, though it makes evil possible, is also the only thing that makes possible any love or goodness or joy worth having. - CS Lewis
Joy is the Gigantic Secret of Christians - GK Chesterton

Alan Burns

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #41560 on: August 30, 2020, 04:50:29 PM »
You churn out these fallacy-fests with such ease that you should be worried.
What worries me is the modern trend in thinking that current scientific discovery has found explanations for a reality without God.

The truth is that science has uncovered more mysteries than it has solved - particularly in the field of quantum mechanics.
Is human free will an illusion?
Or is the scientific explanation which denies our freedom a delusion?
The reality we all live in and experience comprises far more than the mechanistic world of physically predetermined cause and effect can ever define.
The truth will set you free  - John 8:32
Truth is not an abstraction, but a person - Edith Stein
Free will, though it makes evil possible, is also the only thing that makes possible any love or goodness or joy worth having. - CS Lewis
Joy is the Gigantic Secret of Christians - GK Chesterton

Gordon

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #41561 on: August 30, 2020, 04:52:37 PM »
The evidence of God is truly overwhelming.

Where?

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The problem is that we are so immersed in God's creation that we take it all for granted and call it "natural".

You're begging the question - again.

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How can you say a person who has had personal experience of God in their lives is deluded?

Taking 'deluded' to mean unjustified beliefs, then because their belief that they have had this so-called 'personal experience of God' doesn't constitute knowledge, due to the absence of evidence that is independent of their personal convictions, and since their personal belief is entirely subjective. After all, would you not agree that they could be wrong? 

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You cannot pass judgement on other people's experiences unless you have had the same experience yourself.

You could judge that their claim of subjective personal experience, and however sincerely they believe their claim to be true, simply doesn't stand scrutiny and therefore fails as a claim. You routinely express claims using a suite of logical fallacies that are easily dismissed, and if these claims of personal experience are based on similar fallacious (or incoherent) arguments then it seems there is nothing of substance to have shared experience of.

Gordon

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #41562 on: August 30, 2020, 04:53:37 PM »
What worries me is the modern trend in thinking that current scientific discovery has found explanations for a reality without God.

The truth is that science has uncovered more mysteries than it has solved - particularly in the field of quantum mechanics.
Is human free will an illusion?
Or is the scientific explanation which denies our freedom a delusion?
The reality we all live in and experience comprises far more than the mechanistic world of physically predetermined cause and effect can ever define.

The fallacy-fest continues........

torridon

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #41563 on: August 30, 2020, 05:12:02 PM »
The evidence of God is truly overwhelming.
The problem is that we are so immersed in God's creation that we take it all for granted and call it "natural".
How can you say a person who has had personal experience of God in their lives is deluded?
You cannot pass judgement on other people's experiences unless you have had the same experience yourself.

Eerm, we haven't found any evidence for god(s) at all.  If we had you can bet every penny you have that we would have a theory of god already in science.  But we don't, because there is nothing there to build a theory around.  It is just a widespread popular belief, that is not the same as objective evidence that stands scrutiny.

bluehillside Retd.

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #41564 on: August 30, 2020, 05:12:51 PM »
AB,

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The evidence of God is truly overwhelming.

If that’s the case why on earth will you never produce any of it?

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The problem is that we are so immersed in God's creation that we take it all for granted and call it "natural".

No, the a prori problem is that – so far at least – no-one has produced an argument to justify the belief “god” that isn’t wrong.

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How can you say a person who has had personal experience of God in their lives is deluded?

Because “having an experience of god” is just a narrative. There are many other possible explanations for the experience that don’t require a god at all.
 
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You cannot pass judgement on other people's experiences unless you have had the same experience yourself.

But you can “pass judgement” on the reasoning people try to justify their beliefs that they experienced god(s) rather than that something else happened. 

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What worries me is the modern trend in thinking that current scientific discovery has found explanations for a reality without God.

Why does that worry you if it’s accutate?

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The truth is that science has uncovered more mysteries than it has solved - particularly in the field of quantum mechanics.

Relevance?

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Is human free will an illusion?

Your account of it, yes.

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Or is the scientific explanation which denies our freedom a delusion?

Impossible to say with certainty, but it does at least have the advantages of being rationally well-founded and supported by evidence.

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The reality we all live in and experience comprises far more than the mechanistic world of physically predetermined cause and effect can ever define.

So you assert. How do you propose to justify that claim other than by just asserting it to be so?

That’s your problem remember?
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God

ippy

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #41565 on: August 30, 2020, 05:45:34 PM »
What worries me is the modern trend in thinking that current scientific discovery has found explanations for a reality without God.

The truth is that science has uncovered more mysteries than it has solved - particularly in the field of quantum mechanics.
Is human free will an illusion?
Or is the scientific explanation which denies our freedom a delusion?
The reality we all live in and experience comprises far more than the mechanistic world of physically predetermined cause and effect can ever define.

As you must know Alan, this post of yours is a completely baseless collection of absolute nonsense.

There's no need to have a brain with the capacity of understanding the equal of Einstein's to know that there is no viable evidence that supports any of the magical, mystical nor any of the superstition based parts of your bible.

Commiserations to you Alan, ippy.
 

torridon

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #41566 on: August 30, 2020, 06:17:21 PM »
The evidence of God is truly overwhelming.
The problem is that we are so immersed in God's creation that we take it all for granted and call it "natural".

On the other hand, some people become so immersed in their belief systems, that they lose the ability to think about them objectively, critically, dispassionately.  Take a look around the world, very few people make the effort to think outside the box of their upbringing and outside the ambient culture they were born into.

Stranger

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #41567 on: August 30, 2020, 06:20:30 PM »
The evidence of God is truly overwhelming.

Why have you never produced the slightest hint of any, then?

How can you say a person who has had personal experience of God in their lives is deluded?
You cannot pass judgement on other people's experiences unless you have had the same experience yourself.

At least most people who claim to have experienced a god must be wrong because they contradict each other.

Is human free will an illusion?

In the way you describe it, yes, because it's self-contradictory.

The reality we all live in and experience comprises far more than the mechanistic world of physically predetermined cause and effect can ever define.

Now you're claiming to be omniscient again... ::)
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Alan Burns

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #41568 on: August 30, 2020, 11:04:42 PM »

So you assert. How do you propose to justify that claim other than by just asserting it to be so?

My ability to assert justifies my claim that I have the consciously driven freedom to choose to make such an assertion.

The concept of freedom is meaningless if I just react to past events over which I have no control.
The truth will set you free  - John 8:32
Truth is not an abstraction, but a person - Edith Stein
Free will, though it makes evil possible, is also the only thing that makes possible any love or goodness or joy worth having. - CS Lewis
Joy is the Gigantic Secret of Christians - GK Chesterton

torridon

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #41569 on: August 31, 2020, 07:39:18 AM »
My ability to assert justifies my claim that I have the consciously driven freedom to choose to make such an assertion.

The concept of freedom is meaningless if I just react to past events over which I have no control.

and yet to be free of the past would define our choices in the present to be random.  If there was no reason that led to my preference for option A over option B, then my preference was random.

You find it hard to believe our choices in the present could be a consequence of the past. i find it hard to believe that humans go around making random choices.  Such a development would surely lead to our extinction as a species in no time at all.

Stranger

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #41570 on: August 31, 2020, 08:10:56 AM »
The Alan-bot has reset itself again... ::)

My ability to assert justifies my claim that I have the consciously driven freedom to choose to make such an assertion.

Nobody disputes your ability to mindlessly assert things. It says nothing at all about your self contradictory notion of freedom, that is, that you could have done differently (without randomness) - that is called a motte-and-bailey fallacy. And even if we ignore that, none of that justifies the claim that there is anything going on beyond the physical world, unless you are claiming omniscience.

The concept of freedom is meaningless if I just react to past events over which I have no control.

And the Fallacy-fest continues: appeal to consequences and false dilemma.

Why do you continue advertise your inability to understand logic? You have claimed many times to have "sound logic" yet you can't recognise simple, well known logical mistakes (which is what fallacies are). Why don't you seem to even care?

I ask you again to either make a serious attempt to produce a fallacy free argument or to admit that you don't know how or can't. Let's have some basic honesty from you for a change.
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ekim

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #41571 on: August 31, 2020, 10:07:25 AM »

At least most people who claim to have experienced a god must be wrong because they contradict each other.

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Alan Burns

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #41572 on: August 31, 2020, 11:19:01 AM »
Why do you continue advertise your inability to understand logic?
I fully understand the logic you propose.
But it is flawed because it fails to reflect our reality.

Anybody's ability to understand logic is entirely dependent on their conscious freedom to manipulate their own thought processes in order to consciously contemplate the logic in question.

The scenario you propose does not allow any mechanism for conscious manipulation of thoughts because every event involved in such thought processes will be entirely defined by previous events which will be outside the scope for interaction from your present state of conscious awareness.

The more you try to consciously try to justify your scenario, the more evidence you provide for your own conscious freedom to manipulate your own thoughts - a freedom which cannot exist within the time dependent chains of pre determined cause and effect in material reactions.
« Last Edit: August 31, 2020, 11:26:05 AM by Alan Burns »
The truth will set you free  - John 8:32
Truth is not an abstraction, but a person - Edith Stein
Free will, though it makes evil possible, is also the only thing that makes possible any love or goodness or joy worth having. - CS Lewis
Joy is the Gigantic Secret of Christians - GK Chesterton

Stranger

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #41573 on: August 31, 2020, 12:04:28 PM »
I fully understand the logic you propose.

First of all, I meant that you don't understand logic in general, let alone my argument, because you don't recognise fallacies and, what's more, you don't seem to care.

But it is flawed because it fails to reflect our reality.

Baseless assertion.

Anybody's ability to understand logic is entirely dependent on their conscious freedom to manipulate their own thought processes in order to consciously contemplate the logic in question.

Motte-and-bailey again. What is being disputed is the ability to have done differently without randomness - not our ability to consciously contemplate.

Trying to pretend that one is the same as the other, without ever producing a connecting argument, is dishonest.

The scenario you propose does not allow any mechanism for conscious manipulation of thoughts because every event involved in such thought processes will be entirely defined by previous events which will be outside the scope for interaction from your present state of conscious awareness.

Straw man and false dilemma fallacies. It is a misrepresentation to say that my view does not allow "conscious manipulation of thoughts" (to the extant that even makes any sense, which it doesn't if taken literally). And you have made no argument that says any conscious process cannot also be "entirely defined by previous events".

And, no matter how many times you repeat it, the "present state of conscious awareness" is still meaningless gibberish.

The more you try to consciously try to justify your scenario, the more evidence you provide for your own conscious freedom to manipulate your own thoughts...

And back to the dishonest pretence that human cognition is the same thing as being able to have done differently (without randomness).

...a freedom which cannot exist within the time dependent chains of pre determined cause and effect in material reactions.

Yet again: if you could make your notion of freedom make logical sense (which you seem utterly unable to do), then you couldn't claim that it cannot be a physical process without claiming to know everything about the physical world.

So, again, it seems that you don't even have a basic grasp how to construct a sound logical argument, without falling into multiple fallacies, dishonest misrepresentation, and false equivalences.

How about finally admitting it?
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Alan Burns

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #41574 on: August 31, 2020, 12:39:39 PM »
and yet to be free of the past would define our choices in the present to be random.  If there was no reason that led to my preference for option A over option B, then my preference was random.

You find it hard to believe our choices in the present could be a consequence of the past. i find it hard to believe that humans go around making random choices.  Such a development would surely lead to our extinction as a species in no time at all.
Can you not understand the difference between choice and reaction?
Our choices are certainly not free from the past.
Neither are they random.
They are influence by the past, but not entirely defined by the past.
Our conscious awareness of the past gives us the freedom to choose how to react to it.
The truth will set you free  - John 8:32
Truth is not an abstraction, but a person - Edith Stein
Free will, though it makes evil possible, is also the only thing that makes possible any love or goodness or joy worth having. - CS Lewis
Joy is the Gigantic Secret of Christians - GK Chesterton