Author Topic: Searching for GOD...  (Read 3906043 times)

Alan Burns

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #42625 on: June 04, 2021, 05:13:34 PM »
You cannot control your fundamental brain function any more than you can control your kidney function. Mental phenomena are things we experience, we do not choose to have them, we do not control them.

This is a challenging puzzle from this month's Mensa magazine:

In processing a payment, a cashier transposed the pounds for pence and the pence for pounds, resulting in far too much money being given out. If £1.56 was deducted, the amount given out would be exactly twice the correct value. What was the correct amount?

It took me several minutes of intensive consciously directed thought processing to reach a consciously verified solution.
The realistic probability for this to have occurred within the unguidable reactions in subconscious brain activity is a pretty good definition of absolute zero.

The undeniable reality is that we do have conscious control of our thought processes.  We may not know how this control manifests within the material brain, but the evidence for its existence is overwhelming.
The truth will set you free  - John 8:32
Truth is not an abstraction, but a person - Edith Stein
Free will, though it makes evil possible, is also the only thing that makes possible any love or goodness or joy worth having. - CS Lewis
Joy is the Gigantic Secret of Christians - GK Chesterton

bluehillside Retd.

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #42626 on: June 04, 2021, 05:31:11 PM »
AB,

Quote
This is a challenging puzzle from this month's Mensa magazine:

In processing a payment, a cashier transposed the pounds for pence and the pence for pounds, resulting in far too much money being given out. If £1.56 was deducted, the amount given out would be exactly twice the correct value. What was the correct amount?

It took me several minutes of intensive consciously directed thought processing to reach a consciously verified solution.

It probably felt just like there was a separate “I” doing that, I agree. That’s the way it feels to me too.

Quote
The realistic probability for this to have occurred within the unguidable reactions in subconscious brain activity is a pretty good definition of absolute zero.

Ah but now you’ve collapsed back into your ab initio mistake of just assuming there’s a separate “I” to do the “directing” rather than a seamless and integrated whole at work that manifests as a self-aware “I”.   

Quote
The undeniable reality is that we do have conscious control of our thought processes.

“The undeniable reality is” is not an argument; it’s just a narrative explanation for the experiential phenomenon of “control” that cannot be the correct one because it’s inherently contradictory.

Quote
We may not know how this control manifests within the material brain, but the evidence for its existence is overwhelming.

The “evidence for its existence” is non-existent – this is just you making unqualified assertions again without addressing the fundamental problems in logic they give you.

Apart from all that though… 
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Stranger

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #42627 on: June 04, 2021, 05:39:57 PM »
It took me several minutes of intensive consciously directed thought processing to reach a consciously verified solution.
The realistic probability for this to have occurred within the unguidable reactions in subconscious brain activity is a pretty good definition of absolute zero.

Mindless, thought-free, utterly baseless assertion, with an added side-helping of misrepresentation (our reactions definitely are guided and you don't get to redefine the word to suit your blind faith).

Why don't you try applying to level of thought you used for the problem to the illogical nonsense you spout so often here.
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Alan Burns

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #42628 on: June 04, 2021, 09:20:33 PM »
Mindless, thought-free, utterly baseless assertion, with an added side-helping of misrepresentation (our reactions definitely are guided and you don't get to redefine the word to suit your blind faith).

Why don't you try applying to level of thought you used for the problem to the illogical nonsense you spout so often here.

In order to try to apply any thought to a situation, I need the conscious freedom to invoke and guide the thought process.  Such freedom does not occur within endless chains of unavoidable physical reactions.

My ability to solve the Mensa puzzle did not involve a series of unavoidable reactions in my material brain - I was able to consciously interact and guide my thoughts to achieve a consciously perceived goal.  This reality may well seem illogical if you only consider the limited evidence available from human scientific discovery, but the reality of our human abilities indicates that such abilities are beyond what can be understood by our limited knowledge.
The truth will set you free  - John 8:32
Truth is not an abstraction, but a person - Edith Stein
Free will, though it makes evil possible, is also the only thing that makes possible any love or goodness or joy worth having. - CS Lewis
Joy is the Gigantic Secret of Christians - GK Chesterton

torridon

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #42629 on: June 05, 2021, 07:53:39 AM »
This is a challenging puzzle from this month's Mensa magazine:

In processing a payment, a cashier transposed the pounds for pence and the pence for pounds, resulting in far too much money being given out. If £1.56 was deducted, the amount given out would be exactly twice the correct value. What was the correct amount?

It took me several minutes of intensive consciously directed thought processing to reach a consciously verified solution.
The realistic probability for this to have occurred within the unguidable reactions in subconscious brain activity is a pretty good definition of absolute zero.

The undeniable reality is that we do have conscious control of our thought processes.  We may not know how this control manifests within the material brain, but the evidence for its existence is overwhelming.

We do not control or 'guide' our thought processes in any fundamental way, ie in any way which itself is not a thought process.  Your desire to solve a Mensa puzzle would be a case of following your thoughts, unfolding your desires, not a case of you choosing which thoughts and desires to have in the first place.  All our desires must derive from something for them not to be random and I don't see any reason to think puzzle solving represents an instance of true randomness.  You wanted to solve it for a reason, ie you got something out of the exercise. The notion that there is a separate 'you' having its own distinct thought stream which is determining which thoughts or inclinations to have makes no sense.

It might not be easy to conceptualise how mind processes arise from matter, but the evidence is that they do. What is better, to rise to the challenge to understand, or to dodge it by investing in magical thinking.  We'd never have come to understand gravity if we all invested in the fantasy belief that the Sun was pulled across the sky by a team of invisible pixies.  The notion that there must be some invisible intangible being inside me choosing which thoughts to have is just such another case of magical fantasy thinking.  If you can rise to the challenge of a Mensa puzzle, why not rise to the far bigger challenge of trying to understand life, what it is, and how it works ?
« Last Edit: June 05, 2021, 07:58:19 AM by torridon »

Stranger

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #42630 on: June 05, 2021, 09:00:29 AM »
In order to try to apply any thought to a situation, I need the conscious freedom to invoke and guide the thought process.  Such freedom does not occur within endless chains of unavoidable physical reactions.

Waffle and baseless assertion.

My ability to solve the Mensa puzzle did not involve a series of unavoidable reactions in my material brain...

Another baseless assertion.

...I was able to consciously interact and guide my thoughts to achieve a consciously perceived goal.

As I have pointed out many times, the role of consciousness is irrelevant to the fact that you were either acting deterministically (chains of cause and effect) or you weren't and your thoughts therefore involved some random element.

This is not a 'conscious control' versus 'inevitable reaction' question. To characterise it like that is either a misunderstanding or a misrepresentation.

This reality may well seem illogical if you only consider the limited evidence available from human scientific discovery...

Once again you seem to be too afraid to deal with the argument that has actually been put to you, so you need to continually misrepresent it. The problem is one of logic - it has nothing directly to do with scientific discoveries. Your view of 'free will' is illogical because it is self-contradictory, not because of scientific discoveries that contradict it.

...but the reality of our human abilities indicates that such abilities are beyond what can be understood by our limited knowledge.

Yet another totally baseless assertion.

If you approached the Mensa puzzle in the same way you're approaching this you'd have just made up an answer and be desperately refusing to acknowledge everybody who pointed out that it was obviously wrong.
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Sebastian Toe

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #42631 on: June 05, 2021, 09:38:35 AM »
I presume that the hypnotist employs a technique to override the victim's own control of bodily functions and effectively becomes the temporary controller.
How can he possibly control another human body, if as you assert, it us your soul that does all of the necessary concious controlling?
"The word God is for me nothing more than the expression and product of human weaknesses, the Bible a collection of honourable, but still primitive legends.'
Albert Einstein

Enki

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #42632 on: June 05, 2021, 04:17:50 PM »
One of the problems Alan has is that he is incapable, of responding  to the logic that We do things and make choices for reasons and that the only alternative to the idea that we could have done things differently, given exactly the same circumstances, is to introduce at least a degree of randomness. Of course that doesn't help his case for free will at all so, basically, he ignores it and simply concentrates on other things, such as consciousness, hoping that, even though it has no impact upon the idea at all, he can build some sort of case that consciousness at least gives us the environment to allow his version of free will to thrive, although, as is usual with Alan, he cannot say how.("We may not know how this control manifests within the material brain").

Pretty unconvincing stuff, I would have thought. :)


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ekim

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #42633 on: June 05, 2021, 06:08:31 PM »
He also seems to ignore that part of the Lord's Prayer which invokes 'Thy Will be Done' which implies a surrender of human self centred 'will', which Alan appears to be defending, and allowing his God's Will to be the determining factor.

Alan Burns

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #42634 on: June 06, 2021, 08:00:47 PM »
He also seems to ignore that part of the Lord's Prayer which invokes 'Thy Will be Done' which implies a surrender of human self centred 'will', which Alan appears to be defending, and allowing his God's Will to be the determining factor.
God does not impose His will - that would be pointless.
We are free to endeavour to discern God's will through prayer.
We are then free to choose whether to try to do His will.
At any time we are also free to stop doing His will.
God has given us the freedom to choose - a miraculous gift through which we have the power to choose between good (God's will) and evil (not God's will).  Through this miraculous gift we can gain the eternal salvation of our human soul.
The truth will set you free  - John 8:32
Truth is not an abstraction, but a person - Edith Stein
Free will, though it makes evil possible, is also the only thing that makes possible any love or goodness or joy worth having. - CS Lewis
Joy is the Gigantic Secret of Christians - GK Chesterton

torridon

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #42635 on: June 07, 2021, 06:31:51 AM »
God does not impose His will - that would be pointless.
We are free to endeavour to discern God's will through prayer.
We are then free to choose whether to try to do His will.
At any time we are also free to stop doing His will.
God has given us the freedom to choose - a miraculous gift through which we have the power to choose between good (God's will) and evil (not God's will).  Through this miraculous gift we can gain the eternal salvation of our human soul.

So a choice is not free then.  How can it be free if the choice comes loaded with threats and inducements ? A gift given freely would not come with strings and consequences attached,

ekim

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #42636 on: June 07, 2021, 09:33:03 AM »
God does not impose His will - that would be pointless.
We are free to endeavour to discern God's will through prayer.
We are then free to choose whether to try to do His will.
At any time we are also free to stop doing His will.
God has given us the freedom to choose - a miraculous gift through which we have the power to choose between good (God's will) and evil (not God's will).  Through this miraculous gift we can gain the eternal salvation of our human soul.
I think you are still getting mixed up between 'will' and 'choice'.  I would say that 'will' contains intention which leads to imposition and according to the way scripture depicts it, you are rewarded with Heaven if you obey and eternal damnation if you disobey, which is the carrot and stick method of imposition.

As far as I can make out there is only one prayer advocated by Jesus all the rest he dismisses as foolish repetitions or verbosity.  It's more about gaining freedom from self imposed choices rather than discerning God's Will.  Even Jesus didn't know what his God's Will was regarding his death.  Discerning 'God's Will' is a feature of church doctrine which in turn leads to indoctrination and eventually sectarianism between conflicting doctrines.

Alan Burns

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #42637 on: June 07, 2021, 02:22:44 PM »
So a choice is not free then.  How can it be free if the choice comes loaded with threats and inducements ? A gift given freely would not come with strings and consequences attached,
The fact is that we are free to think about the strings and consequences before making a conscious choice - they may influence, but they do not dictate our choice.  Despite being consciously aware of good and bad consequences, we are still capable of deliberately making a bad choice.
The truth will set you free  - John 8:32
Truth is not an abstraction, but a person - Edith Stein
Free will, though it makes evil possible, is also the only thing that makes possible any love or goodness or joy worth having. - CS Lewis
Joy is the Gigantic Secret of Christians - GK Chesterton

Stranger

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #42638 on: June 07, 2021, 02:32:58 PM »
The fact is that we are free to think about the strings and consequences before making a conscious choice - they may influence, but they do not dictate our choice.  Despite being consciously aware of good and bad consequences, we are still capable of deliberately making a bad choice.

Well, apart from your self-contradictory idea of what a choice involves and the fact that there is no actual objective reason to think this choice or its consequences are actually real, that is. And, of course, if they really were real, it would be about as free a choice as if somebody put a gun to your head (only worse). Why do you think this monster of a god you believe in is worthy of worship?

The only real and obvious consequence of your choice seems to have been to totally cripple your ability to think clearly and logically about the subject.
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Sebastian Toe

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #42639 on: June 07, 2021, 02:49:34 PM »
The fact is that we are free to think about the strings and consequences before making a conscious choice - they may influence, but they do not dictate our choice.

...unless of course someone has taken temporary control and somehow locked out your soul's ability to make those choices?
No free will there!
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Albert Einstein

bluehillside Retd.

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #42640 on: June 07, 2021, 03:31:13 PM »
AB,

Quote
The fact is that we are free to think about the strings and consequences before making a conscious choice - they may influence, but they do not dictate our choice.  Despite being consciously aware of good and bad consequences, we are still capable of deliberately making a bad choice.

You remind me a little bit of a bluebottle endlessly banging against a closed window, while all the time the window next to it is open to all outdoors – only you will not or cannot ever stop banging your head long enough to try the open window.

As reason and logic seem to be perennially lost on you, try this instead as a thought experiment: without troubling to consider them, imagine just for a moment if you can that all the reason and logic and evidence that undo you are correct. That is, try to imagine a reality in which there’s no separate “we” somehow floating free of our thoughts, but rather that the “we” of colloquial experience is just the perceptual manifestation of a single, integrated whole doing vastly complex processes all the time, and of which there is only partial awareness. That is to say, imagine that the sensation of decision-making is in fact just processes playing out, and that it only feels like there’s a little man at the controls deciding what to do.

I know this is difficult for you, but can you try at least to imagine such a thing? If you can imagine that, can you also see that in this model there’d be no need for the little man for life to carry on exactly as it does nonetheless – that is, at a functional rather than an experience-driven narrative level we’d all be ticking along just a we do?

Now if you can grasp this, you should be able to grasp that this model would be indistinguishable from the model you feel you inhabit at an experiential level: there’d be no difference at all in fact. And if you can grasp this then, finally, you should be able to see that there’d be no explanatory gap for your little man to fill. In other words, there’s not only no evidence at all for his existence, but nor is there any need for his existence.

Still with me? OK, final request: your stock response to arguments with which you can’t engage is, “the fact that you can write this at all must mean…" yada yada nonsense. We’re at a more fundamental level of abstraction here though that makes this assertion otiose – it’s already falsified by the model, so you’d need to invalidate the model a priori before you could deploy your a posteriori reasoning (such that it is).

So go on then – surprise me after all this time by actually engaging with the argument that invalidates the mantra rather than just repeating it.   

Can you do that?               
« Last Edit: June 07, 2021, 07:52:32 PM by bluehillside Retd. »
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God

torridon

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #42641 on: June 07, 2021, 07:49:06 PM »
The fact is that we are free to think about the strings and consequences before making a conscious choice - they may influence, but they do not dictate our choice.  Despite being consciously aware of good and bad consequences, we are still capable of deliberately making a bad choice.

No choices are free of influence.  That is why the idea of free will is a nonsense, ultimately. It is impossible.  So, God offers humans eternal bliss on the one hand, and eternal damnation on the other.  And that is supposed to be free ? Are you sure you aren't being a tad naive about this ?

Alan Burns

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #42642 on: June 07, 2021, 08:59:00 PM »
AB,

You remind me a little bit of a bluebottle endlessly banging its head against a closed window, while all the time the window next to it is open to all outdoors – only you will not or cannot ever stop banging your head long enough to try the open window.

As reason and logic seem to be perennially lost on you, try this instead as a thought experiment: without troubling to consider them, imagine just for a moment if you can that all the reason and logic and evidence that undo you are correct. That is, try to imagine a reality in which there’s no separate “we” somehow floating free of our thoughts, but rather that the “we” of colloquial experience as just the manifestation of a single, integrated whole doing vastly complex processes all the time, which only the part of that that’s the property of self-awareness is perceived. That is to say, imagine that the sensation of decision-making is in fact just processes playing out, and that it only feels like there’s a little man at the controls deciding what to do.

I know this is difficult for you, but can you try at least to imagine such a thing? If you can imagine that, can you also see that in this model there’d be no need for the little man for life to carry on exactly as it does nonetheless – that is, at a functional rather than an experience-driven narrative level we’d all be ticking along just a we do?

Now if you can grasp this, you should be able to grasp too that this model would be indistinguishable at an experiential level from the model you feel you inhabit: there’d be no difference at all in fact. And if you can grasp his, then finally you should be able to see that there’s no explanatory gap for your little man to fill. In other words, there’s not only no evidence at all for his existence, but nor is there any need for his existence.

Still with me? OK, final request: your stock response to arguments with which you can’t engage is, “the fact that you can write this at all must mean…" yada yada nonsense. We’re at a more fundamental level here though that makes this assertion otiose – it’s already falsified by the model, so you’d need to invalidate the model itself before you could deploy the a posteriori reasoning (such that it is).

So go on then – surprise me after all this time by actually engaging with the argument that invalidates the mantra rather than just repeating the it.   

Can you do that?             
Yes, of course I can see the logical argument you are portraying, and I can follow through your imaginary scenario.

But the fact that you and I are able to do all this imaginary speculation is incontrovertible evidence that the control we perceive is a reality rather than just a sensation.  Yes, the reality is beyond logical explanation, because the only admissible evidence on which your logical argument is based is limited to the perceived behaviour of particle physics.  It is no surprise that trying to explain everything to be an inevitable consequence of material reactions leads you to the bizarre conclusion that you have no control of your own thoughts.  You consistently ignore the fact that our freedom to think offers substantial evidence that there is more, far more, to reality than particle physics can ever explain, so you consciously invent an imaginary scenario to try to explain how our control of thought processes is just an experience driven by physical reactions beyond our personal control.
The truth will set you free  - John 8:32
Truth is not an abstraction, but a person - Edith Stein
Free will, though it makes evil possible, is also the only thing that makes possible any love or goodness or joy worth having. - CS Lewis
Joy is the Gigantic Secret of Christians - GK Chesterton

Alan Burns

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #42643 on: June 07, 2021, 09:09:43 PM »
No choices are free of influence.
I never claimed they were/
Influences are perceived in our conscious awareness - they do what they say - influence - they do not make the choice - you do.
Quote
That is why the idea of free will is a nonsense, ultimately. It is impossible.
The choice is still your to make - you are not a robot.
Quote
So, God offers humans eternal bliss on the one hand, and eternal damnation on the other.  And that is supposed to be free ? Are you sure you aren't being a tad naive about this ?
For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.
For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him.
John 3:16-17
The truth will set you free  - John 8:32
Truth is not an abstraction, but a person - Edith Stein
Free will, though it makes evil possible, is also the only thing that makes possible any love or goodness or joy worth having. - CS Lewis
Joy is the Gigantic Secret of Christians - GK Chesterton

torridon

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #42644 on: June 08, 2021, 06:38:57 AM »
I never claimed they were/
Influences are perceived in our conscious awareness - they do what they say - influence - they do not make the choice - you do.The choice is still your to make - you are not a robot.For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.
For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him.
John 3:16-17


but then the choice is not free; it is coerced

Stranger

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #42645 on: June 08, 2021, 08:24:59 AM »
But the fact that you and I are able to do all this imaginary speculation is incontrovertible evidence that the control we perceive is a reality rather than just a sensation.

This is still tantamount to lying. Of course we have the control needed to use imagination (nobody has ever denied this). However, you have never posted even a single solitary hint of reasoning as to why these assertions about what we do being evidence for your nonsensical view of freedom should be taken at all seriously.

Yes, the reality is beyond logical explanation, because the only admissible evidence on which your logical argument is based is limited to the perceived behaviour of particle physics.  It is no surprise that trying to explain everything to be an inevitable consequence of material reactions leads you to the bizarre conclusion that you have no control of your own thoughts.

Once again you demonstrate an inability or fear of addressing the actual argument and resort to blatant misrepresentation.

You consistently ignore the fact that our freedom to think offers substantial evidence...

We do not have 'freedom' in the sense you mean. If you actually think about it (you remember thinking, it's what you did with the Mensa puzzle but you never do with the subject of free will), it doesn't even make any sense - it is literally unimaginable.
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Stranger

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #42646 on: June 08, 2021, 08:36:22 AM »
I never claimed they were/
Influences are perceived in our conscious awareness - they do what they say - influence - they do not make the choice - you do.
...
The choice is still your to make - you are not a robot.

Despite all that has been said about this subject, you've still never even properly thought about it, have you? It's not a question of whether it's 'you' that chooses, it's a question of how 'you' make your choices.

The simple logic is, that if all the possible influences (both internal or external to the mind) do not result in only one possible choice, then any remaining variation in outcome can only be random, because it has nothing to do with your mind or the choice (they would be included as influences).

For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.
For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him.
John 3:16-17


That is not love, it's demanding belief with threats and inducements (and that's before we get to the bizarre sadomasochistic act itself).
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bluehillside Retd.

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #42647 on: June 08, 2021, 10:19:43 AM »
AB,

Quote
Yes, of course I can see the logical argument you are portraying, and I can follow through your imaginary scenario.

It’s not imaginary, but that (you say) you can follow it at least is progress of a sort I guess.

Quote
But the fact that you and I are able to do all this imaginary speculation is incontrovertible evidence that the control we perceive is a reality….

No no no. You’ve just collapsed again into the same mindless mantra. I explained this to you (and warned you against making the same mistake): that we experience thinking, decision-making etc is perfectly explicable within determinative processes for the reasons that I and others have explained to you. Your stock response (“but the fact that….” etc) can only come into play if you first falsify the determinative argument. You don’t do that though – you claim to understand the explanation, then ignore it in favour of an assertion that could only be relevant if the a priori explanation had been invalidated.

Try to understand this. Really, really try. There’s a perfectly good explanation for reality that requires no little man at the controls. Your response (“but the reality is that there is a little man at the controls”) doesn’t address the explanation – it just ignores it. It’s a bit like someone explaining to you the germ theory of disease, and you replying, “of course I understand that, but the reality is that evil spirits do it”. In the absence of any other explanation, evil spirits doing it may or may not be a good idea. Here though there is an a priori explanation (germs), so you’d have to dispense with that before you could essay your evil spirits conjecture.

Can you see the logic here that undoes you? We have explanations for “free” will and for diseases alike that are logical, testable, evidence-based etc. It’s simply not within your gift therefore in response to collapse into mindless mantras (evil spirits/little men at the controls) as necessary better explanations unless you can dispense first with the ones you have already. You already understand (or so you claim) that the determinative model would feel at an experiential level exactly the same way that your little man at the controls conjecture would feel, so unless you have any arguments at all to invalidate determinism you remain marooned in "evil spirits causes diseases” territory regardless of the strength of the a priori explanation you’ve been given.               
 
"Don't make me come down there."

God

Alan Burns

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #42648 on: June 08, 2021, 11:33:48 AM »
AB,

It’s not imaginary, but that (you say) you can follow it at least is progress of a sort I guess.

No no no. You’ve just collapsed again into the same mindless mantra. I explained this to you (and warned you against making the same mistake): that we experience thinking, decision-making etc is perfectly explicable within determinative processes for the reasons that I and others have explained to you. Your stock response (“but the fact that….” etc) can only come into play if you first falsify the determinative argument. You don’t do that though – you claim to understand the explanation, then ignore it in favour of an assertion that could only be relevant if the a priori explanation had been invalidated.

Try to understand this. Really, really try. There’s a perfectly good explanation for reality that requires no little man at the controls. Your response (“but the reality is that there is a little man at the controls”) doesn’t address the explanation – it just ignores it. It’s a bit like someone explaining to you the germ theory of disease, and you replying, “of course I understand that, but the reality is that evil spirits do it”. In the absence of any other explanation, evil spirits doing it may or may not be a good idea. Here though there is an a priori explanation (germs), so you’d have to dispense with that before you could essay your evil spirits conjecture.

Can you see the logic here that undoes you? We have explanations for “free” will and for diseases alike that are logical, testable, evidence-based etc. It’s simply not within your gift therefore in response to collapse into mindless mantras (evil spirits/little men at the controls) as necessary better explanations unless you can dispense first with the ones you have already. You already understand (or so you claim) that the determinative model would feel at an experiential level exactly the same way that your little man at the controls conjecture would feel, so unless you have any arguments at all to invalidate determinism you remain marooned in "evil spirits causes diseases” territory regardless of the strength of the a priori explanation you’ve been given.               
Yes, I do fully understand the explanation you are giving.
My contention is that such explanation does not explain the reality of my existence and my mental powers of perception, deduction and interaction.
Your explanation reduces you and I to be just uncontrollable parts of a meaningless, purposeless material universe entirely driven material reactions.  The fact that we can perceive meaning and purpose in our lives defies such explanation.  How do you define meaning and purpose within endless chains of uncontrollable reactions?  You do not seem to appreciate the truly miraculous powers we have to perceive meaning and purpose in our lives and our consciously driven abilities to manipulate and interact rather than just react in order to endeavour to achieve fulfilment in our earthly lives - and reach our true spiritual home.
The truth will set you free  - John 8:32
Truth is not an abstraction, but a person - Edith Stein
Free will, though it makes evil possible, is also the only thing that makes possible any love or goodness or joy worth having. - CS Lewis
Joy is the Gigantic Secret of Christians - GK Chesterton

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #42649 on: June 08, 2021, 11:47:39 AM »
Yes, I do fully understand the explanation you are giving.

In that case, the obvious conclusion is that you are being dishonest when you continually misrepresent it and make assertions that can be trivially dismissed by it. (Cue meaningless mantra about "but if I'm being dishonest...")

Your explanation reduces you and I to be just uncontrollable parts of a meaningless, purposeless material universe entirely driven material reactions.

Another prime example of misrepresentation (and an argumentum ad consequentiam fallacy).

The fact that we can perceive meaning and purpose in our lives defies such explanation.

Why? Where is the first hint of any reasoning?

How do you define meaning and purpose within endless chains of uncontrollable reactions?

What do you see as the problem (and 'uncontrollable' is another misrepresentation)?
x(∅ ∈ x ∧ ∀y(yxy ∪ {y} ∈ x))