Author Topic: Searching for GOD...  (Read 3733103 times)

torridon

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #42850 on: July 28, 2021, 05:32:55 PM »
So in your view of the universe, the concepts of purpose, intention and goals cannot exist, because there are no drivers - just inevitable roller coasters along the paths of life.

Intentions, hopes, goals etc are mental states that exist within the universe and they arise as a result of something else in the universe. All part of the flow of cause and effect.

Gordon

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #42851 on: July 28, 2021, 05:33:42 PM »
So in your view of the universe, the concepts of purpose, intention and goals cannot exist, because there are no drivers - just inevitable roller coasters along the paths of life.

Purpose, intention and goals can exist in the minds of people: but with regard to the 'universe', they are irrelevant.

Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #42852 on: July 29, 2021, 08:19:06 AM »
Purpose, intention and goals can exist in the minds of people: but with regard to the 'universe', they are irrelevant.
Not a list in which it is easy to include governance. I would have thought. The existence of the laws of nature
Put a damper on the vision of a free and totally spontaneous cosmos.

Of course the laws of nature  give us no clue as to their origin.

Alan Burns

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #42853 on: July 29, 2021, 09:40:29 AM »
AB,

No. At a lived experience level we plan, set goals etc all the time and that’s good enough to function in the everyday world readily enough. Reason and evidence though tell us that the way these things feel cannot be the way they are at a more profound level – unless you introduce magic thinking into the system they must in fact be determinative processes.

You’ve had this explained to you thousands of times now though, so I really don’t know why you’re asking the same question again.   
Your explanation is an attempt to make reality fit in with current scientific knowledge.
When you are called to account for how you used your precious gift of free will, can you honestly say you did not know you had it?
The truth will set you free  - John 8:32
Truth is not an abstraction, but a person - Edith Stein
Free will, though it makes evil possible, is also the only thing that makes possible any love or goodness or joy worth having. - CS Lewis
Joy is the Gigantic Secret of Christians - GK Chesterton

torridon

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #42854 on: July 29, 2021, 09:59:19 AM »
Your explanation is an attempt to make reality fit in with current scientific knowledge.

Nothing wrong with that.  Governments formulate policy on the basis of scientific advice. We should be guided by the science, otherwise what is the point of it ?

Enki

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #42855 on: July 29, 2021, 10:22:11 AM »
Your explanation is an attempt to make reality fit in with current scientific knowledge.
When you are called to account for how you used your precious gift of free will, can you honestly say you did not know you had it?

With regard to your first sentence, I would prefer the word 'reflect' instead of 'fit in with' but basically I would agree.
I assume your second sentence is no more than a rather confused and pointless rhetorical question, as it assumes that we accept your illogical version of free will and that in some way we are going to be 'called to account', presumably by your God, which only becomes meaningful if one actually believes in said God.
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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #42856 on: July 29, 2021, 11:01:41 AM »
Your explanation is an attempt to make reality fit in with current scientific knowledge.

Actually, it wasn't, it's the application of logic to reality. What we have learned from science is that things that we intuitively feel are not necessarily how they, are but what destroys your version of 'free will' is simply logic.

When you are called to account for how you used your precious gift of free will, can you honestly say you did not know you had it?

When you are called to account for how you gave up on your god-given intelligence and reasoning ability and tried to spread superstitious nonsense (by the real god), what will you say?

See - I can do make-believe too.
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Alan Burns

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #42857 on: July 29, 2021, 11:09:03 AM »
With regard to your first sentence, I would prefer the word 'reflect' instead of 'fit in with' but basically I would agree.
I assume your second sentence is no more than a rather confused and pointless rhetorical question, as it assumes that we accept your illogical version of free will and that in some way we are going to be 'called to account', presumably by your God, which only becomes meaningful if one actually believes in said God.
I believe in the reality of my own free will, which leads me to believe in the ultimate source of free will which will never be found in material reactions.

The truth will set you free  - John 8:32
Truth is not an abstraction, but a person - Edith Stein
Free will, though it makes evil possible, is also the only thing that makes possible any love or goodness or joy worth having. - CS Lewis
Joy is the Gigantic Secret of Christians - GK Chesterton

Alan Burns

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #42858 on: July 29, 2021, 11:15:05 AM »
Actually, it wasn't, it's the application of logic to reality. What we have learned from science is that things that we intuitively feel are not necessarily how they, are but what destroys your version of 'free will' is simply logic.

When you are called to account for how you gave up on your god-given intelligence and reasoning ability and tried to spread superstitious nonsense (by the real god), what will you say?
I have used my God given intelligence and freedom to think to reach the inevitable conclusion that such abilities could never be derived from reactions to past events beyond my conscious control.
« Last Edit: July 29, 2021, 11:17:37 AM by Alan Burns »
The truth will set you free  - John 8:32
Truth is not an abstraction, but a person - Edith Stein
Free will, though it makes evil possible, is also the only thing that makes possible any love or goodness or joy worth having. - CS Lewis
Joy is the Gigantic Secret of Christians - GK Chesterton

bluehillside Retd.

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #42859 on: July 29, 2021, 11:32:24 AM »
AB,

Quote
Your explanation is an attempt to make reality fit in with current scientific knowledge.

Sort of. What it actually is though is a justification for what reality seems to be based on reason and evidence. You on the other hand have only “objective reality is the way something just feels in my head”. No-one doubts that you do feel that your unqualified opinions also happen to be objectively true, but not only do you have nothing to make the rest of think you’re right about that, nor do you have good reasons to make yourself think you’re right about that. 

Quote
When you are called to account for how you used your precious gift of free will, can you honestly say you did not know you had it?

I gave you a lucid and cogent argument; you just collapsed into a mindless faith claim in response.

What’s the point? What can’t you try at least to address the argument itself?
"Don't make me come down there."

God

Alan Burns

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #42860 on: July 29, 2021, 11:45:37 AM »
AB,

Sort of. What it actually is though is a justification for what reality seems to be based on reason and evidence. You on the other hand have only “objective reality is the way something just feels in my head”. No-one doubts that you do feel that your unqualified opinions also happen to be objectively true, but not only do you have nothing to make the rest of think you’re right about that, nor do you have good reasons to make yourself think you’re right about that. 

I gave you a lucid and cogent argument; you just collapsed into a mindless faith claim in response.

What’s the point? What can’t you try at least to address the argument itself?
I could not try to address any argument without my God given freedom to choose to do so.
The truth will set you free  - John 8:32
Truth is not an abstraction, but a person - Edith Stein
Free will, though it makes evil possible, is also the only thing that makes possible any love or goodness or joy worth having. - CS Lewis
Joy is the Gigantic Secret of Christians - GK Chesterton

bluehillside Retd.

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #42861 on: July 29, 2021, 11:50:49 AM »
AB,

Quote
I could not try to address any argument without my God given freedom to choose to do so.

I just asked you why you just collapse into unqualified faith claims rather than try at least to address the arguments that are given to you - and in response you've just collapsed into an unqualified faith claim.

You're just wasting people's time here.
"Don't make me come down there."

God

Enki

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #42862 on: July 29, 2021, 11:52:33 AM »
I believe in the reality of my own free will, which leads me to believe in the ultimate source of free will which will never be found in material reactions.

Then, a word of advice. Don't ask judgmental questions which are only meaningful to you, but not to the person you are addressing. It's disrespectful and pointless.
Sometimes I wish my first word was 'quote,' so that on my death bed, my last words could be 'end quote.'
Steven Wright

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #42863 on: July 29, 2021, 11:57:03 AM »
I have used my God given intelligence and freedom to think to reach the inevitable conclusion that such abilities could never be derived from reactions to past events beyond my conscious control.

Then why don't you share your reasoning instead of posting the endless stream of baseless assertion and fallacies?
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Stranger

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #42864 on: July 29, 2021, 11:58:11 AM »
I could not try to address any argument without my God given freedom to choose to do so.

Baseless assertion.   ::)
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bluehillside Retd.

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #42865 on: July 29, 2021, 12:37:00 PM »
AB,

Quote
I could not try to address any argument without my God given freedom to choose to do so.

I tell you what Alan, for once will you try at least to understand something and to reply as honestly as you can to it?

OK, when someone wants to persuade someone else that a belief they have is true, here’s how it should be done:

1. Explain what the belief is; and

2. Provide the reasons they rely on to justify the belief.

In response other people can then consider the reasons and either find them to be sound (and thus accept the belief as true), or find them to be false (and thus not accept the belief as true). This process is called an argument.

Here’s what you do though:

1. “I believe X is true.”

And that’s it. There’s never a part 2 set of arguments for people to consider. This puts you not in right or wrong territory, but in “not even wrong” territory because you provide nothing to consider.

It gets worse. What you then do is to deploy your wholly unjustified belief (“god”) to bat away the arguments you are given. Hence:

1. Person A: “But you have no evidence for this supposed god.”

2. You: “Ah, but if god didn’t exist I wouldn’t have the god-given freedom to tell you that he does exist” etc. 

It’s desperately poor, wholly circular reasoning but you fall back on it over and over again. It’s like me saying the universe is populated with shape-shifting lizards, you telling me there’s no evidence for them, and me replying, “that’s because that’s exactly what the shape-shifting lizards have made you think”.

This is simple stuff Alan. Do you understand any of it though? More to the point, is there any way at all you could find it in yourself finally to have just enough honesty at least to address it without collapsing immediately into using your conclusion as your argument again?
« Last Edit: July 29, 2021, 01:40:40 PM by bluehillside Retd. »
"Don't make me come down there."

God

torridon

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #42866 on: July 29, 2021, 02:10:40 PM »
I could not try to address any argument without my God given freedom to choose to do so.

So, therefore the rabbit could not try to evade the fox without its God given freedom to do so and the humpback whale could not try to protect its calf from killer whales without its God given freedom to do so.

Alan Burns

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #42867 on: July 29, 2021, 09:04:52 PM »
AB,

I just asked you why you just collapse into unqualified faith claims rather than try at least to address the arguments that are given to you - and in response you've just collapsed into an unqualified faith claim.

You're just wasting people's time here.
My belief in my own free will is not faith based- it is reality based.
The truth will set you free  - John 8:32
Truth is not an abstraction, but a person - Edith Stein
Free will, though it makes evil possible, is also the only thing that makes possible any love or goodness or joy worth having. - CS Lewis
Joy is the Gigantic Secret of Christians - GK Chesterton

Gordon

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #42868 on: July 29, 2021, 10:03:49 PM »
My belief in my own free will is not faith based- it is reality based.

Nope: you keep describing this 'free will' as being some sort of 'divine gift': so you're making a faith claim.

Alan Burns

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #42869 on: July 29, 2021, 11:08:49 PM »
So, therefore the rabbit could not try to evade the fox without its God given freedom to do so and the humpback whale could not try to protect its calf from killer whales without its God given freedom to do so.
Once more you confuse animal instincts with the human ability to consciously choose, rather than just react.
I am constantly being asked to "try" to understand other people's points of view, and often accused of deliberately not "trying" to do so.  The point I am making is that these accusations imply that I must have the freedom to choose what I do or think about - a freedom my accusers are trying to get me to deny.  Can you not see the irony in this?
The truth will set you free  - John 8:32
Truth is not an abstraction, but a person - Edith Stein
Free will, though it makes evil possible, is also the only thing that makes possible any love or goodness or joy worth having. - CS Lewis
Joy is the Gigantic Secret of Christians - GK Chesterton

Alan Burns

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #42870 on: July 29, 2021, 11:18:10 PM »
Nope: you keep describing this 'free will' as being some sort of 'divine gift': so you're making a faith claim.
You have it the wrong way round, Gordon.
I do not need to believe in God to realise that my free will is a reality.


It has been constantly pointed out to me that my freedom to choose must be a logical impossibility, so for it to be the reality I know it to be, I have to conclude that it is not a gift that nature alone can provide, but a supernatural gift beyond human understanding.
The truth will set you free  - John 8:32
Truth is not an abstraction, but a person - Edith Stein
Free will, though it makes evil possible, is also the only thing that makes possible any love or goodness or joy worth having. - CS Lewis
Joy is the Gigantic Secret of Christians - GK Chesterton

torridon

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #42871 on: July 30, 2021, 07:21:45 AM »
Once more you confuse animal instincts with the human ability to consciously choose, rather than just react.
I am constantly being asked to "try" to understand other people's points of view, and often accused of deliberately not "trying" to do so.  The point I am making is that these accusations imply that I must have the freedom to choose what I do or think about - a freedom my accusers are trying to get me to deny.  Can you not see the irony in this?

The instinct to protect your young is strong across the entire animal kingdom, it is not something unique to homo sapiens, it is something we share with most other creatures and the simplest explanation of that is shared ancestry. It might be a popular misconception that other 'animals' are, well, just animals, they don't talk, they don't think, they just act on instinct. This is a simplistic uneducated nonsense that you are as guilty of as anyone; there is a wide range of cognitive sophistication across different species and the idea that the human form of sophistication amounts to some sort of impossible magic bestowed on us by some supreme being because, well, we are special aren't we, is hubristic naďvety, born of indifference to the rest of the natural world.  Not something to be proud of.

Stranger

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #42872 on: July 30, 2021, 08:13:37 AM »
My belief in my own free will is not faith based- it is reality based.

I'd say it looks very much like a combination of faith and personal incredulity. If it were, in fact, reality based, you'd have been able to point to some aspect of reality that logically requires your self-contradictory notion of 'free will', something you have spectacularly failed to do. Baseless assertions about what people wouldn't be able to do, do not establish a logical requirement.

It has been constantly pointed out to me that my freedom to choose must be a logical impossibility...
I am constantly being asked to "try" to understand other people's points of view, and often accused of deliberately not "trying" to do so.  The point I am making is that these accusations imply that I must have the freedom to choose what I do or think about - a freedom my accusers are trying to get me to deny.  Can you not see the irony in this?

I do wish you'd stop lying about what other people are arguing. Nobody is denying that you have the freedom to choose what you do or think about. You can, without question, choose to do and think about whatever you want to. What you can't do is make a different choice in exactly the same circumstance (unless there is randomness involved). Your choice is determined by things like your personality, way of thinking, experience, basic nature, and your likes and dislikes (all of which got that way because of your life to date). In other words, the choice is made by you. You can't change those things because it would be changing who you are, which is not freedom, and would lead directly to an infinite regress.
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bluehillside Retd.

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #42873 on: July 30, 2021, 09:36:30 AM »
AB,

Quote
My belief in my own free will is not faith based- it is reality based.

Your understanding of "reality" though is faith-based. That's all you have. 
"Don't make me come down there."

God

Outrider

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #42874 on: July 30, 2021, 09:40:48 AM »
You have it the wrong way round, Gordon.
I do not need to believe in God to realise that my free will is a reality.


It has been constantly pointed out to me that my freedom to choose must be a logical impossibility, so for it to be the reality I know it to be, I have to conclude that it is not a gift that nature alone can provide, but a supernatural gift beyond human understanding.

Except for the small point that an all-knowing, all-powerful creator instigating a reality in which time is a dimensional block precludes the idea of free will or choice entirely. Apart from that, you mean?

O.
Universes are forever, not just for creation...

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