Searching for GOD...

[Alan Burns]

I do wish you'd stop lying about what other people are arguing. Nobody is denying that you have the freedom to choose what you do or think about. You can, without question, choose to do and think about whatever you want to. What you can't do is make a different choice in exactly the same circumstance (unless there is randomness involved). Your choice is determined by things like your personality, way of thinking, experience, basic nature, and your likes and dislikes (all of which got that way because of your life to date). In other words, the choice is made by you. You can't change those things because it would be changing who you are, which is not freedom, and would lead directly to an infinite regress.

What you describe is simply an unavoidable reaction to past events.
That is not a choice.
That is not freedom.

Yes, my ability to choose is done by me, and know I am free to make a conscious choice which is determined by me - not by past events which are beyond my conscious control.  I am in control.

The concept of control does not exist in your scenario, because there is no ultimate source - no controller - just endless chains of inevitable reaction.

[torridon]

The concept of control does not exist in your scenario, because there is no ultimate source - no controller - just endless chains of inevitable reaction.

The idea of an 'ultimate source' as controller makes no sense. Whatever the source of 'control' is, it has to have some derivation, nothing can exist in isolation, out of nowhere.

[bluehillside Retd.]

AB,

What you describe is simply an unavoidable reaction to past events.
That is not a choice.
That is not freedom.

Yes, my ability to choose is done by me, and know I am free to make a conscious choice which is determined by me - not by past events which are beyond my conscious control.  I am in control.

The concept of control does not exist in your scenario, because there is no ultimate source - no controller - just endless chains of inevitable reaction.

You’ve tried these unrelenting stupidities before and had them falsified every time you’ve done it, yet rather than ever be honest enough try to address the falsifications all you do is to repeat the same stupidities like a demented speak your weight machine. What then would be the point of correcting you once more? 

Think about what you’re asking people to do here. You’re saying, “I want you to reject out of hand all logic and evidence and science (including now veterinary science) and to accept instead the incoherent and self-contradictory faith claims I make that have absolutely no justifying arguments of any sort of their own”.

Why on earth do you think that anyone possessed of a functioning intellect would be prepared to do that?   

[Stranger]

What you describe is simply an unavoidable reaction to past events.
That is not a choice.
That is not freedom.

You do not get to redefine the language to suit superstition. A choice is (must be) a reaction, and, if we take into account every single tiny influence there is, both from inside your mind and personality, and from all the outside circumstances, it must also be inevitable. The only alternative is that something happened for no reason at all (randomness).

Yes, my ability to choose is done by me, and know I am free to make a conscious choice which is determined by me - not by past events which are beyond my conscious control.  I am in control.

This is still a false dichotomy. You are the result of past events. Your nature, nurture, and experience have made you who you are, and you can't be free from being yourself. The only 'escape' from this is to assume something random contributed to who you are that had nothing to do with your nature or experience.

Endlessly stamping your foot and making the same illogical, irrational, baseless, and self-contradictory assertions, isn't going to change the basic logic of the situation one iota.

The concept of control does not exist in your scenario, because there is no ultimate source - no controller - just endless chains of inevitable reaction.

Again, you are not free to redefine the word 'control' to mean your self-contradictory gibberish. Your mind is in control and it is the 'source' of your decisions. However, it can't do the impossible and make a purposeful choice that isn't entirely due to reasons. Nor can it conjure reasons into existence that aren't due to previous reasons, without them being random.

You have still posted nothing at all that tells us that anything humans do needs this impossible, self-contradictory, unimaginable, version of 'freedom'. You're just repeating your incredulity and blind faith and totally ignoring the answers you've been given.

[Alan Burns]

AB,

You’ve tried these unrelenting stupidities before and had them falsified every time you’ve done it, yet rather than ever be honest enough try to address the falsifications all you do is to repeat the same stupidities like a demented speak your weight machine. What then would be the point of correcting you once more? 

Think about what you’re asking people to do here. You’re saying, “I want you to reject out of hand all logic and evidence and science (including now veterinary science) and to accept instead the incoherent and self-contradictory faith claims I make that have absolutely no justifying arguments of any sort of their own”.

Why on earth do you think that anyone possessed of a functioning intellect would be prepared to do that?   

Because people know that their freedom to choose what they think, say or do is a reality, not an illusion.

[bluehillside Retd.]

AB,

Because people know that their freedom to choose what they think, say or do is a reality, not an illusion.

More dishonesty doesn't help you here. People know that their freedom to choose as an experience isn't an illusion, but those who think about it also know that the experience cannot explain the underlying phenomenon.

Again, why do you think people will abandon reason and evidence in favour of your unqualified personal opinions on the matter?     

[Stranger]

Because people know that their freedom to choose what they think, say or do is a reality, not an illusion.

Yes, people are free to think and do whatever they want to. The problem is when shallow and irrational thinking (or simply the absence of thought about the subject) leads them to silly and self-contradictory conclusions about what that means.

Nobody experiences, or could possibly experience, even in principle, having the ability to have done differently in exactly the same circumstances, that can only ever be a subjective feeling.

[Alan Burns]

Yes, people are free to think and do whatever they want to. The problem is when shallow and irrational thinking (or simply the absence of thought about the subject) leads them to silly and self-contradictory conclusions about what that means.

Nobody experiences, or could possibly experience, even in principle, having the ability to have done differently in exactly the same circumstances, that can only ever be a subjective feeling.

Taking your flawed logic to its inevitable conclusion would mean that from the moment we are born, every microsecond of our life on this earth will be entirely determined by the state which existed in the previous microsecond, meaning we have no choice but to travel on this roller coaster ride to a destiny over which we have no control.

The reality is that God has given us the power to choose our path of life and choose our ultimate destiny.  You are free to try to ignore this power and think up reasons why it cannot possibly exist - or you can acknowledge it and use it for your own good and the good of other people. 

[bluehillside Retd.]

AB,

Taking your flawed logic…

Really? Well, as you’ve never once even tried to engage with the logic let’s see if you've finally done it now shall we?

…to its inevitable conclusion would mean that from the moment we are born, every microsecond of our life on this earth will be entirely determined by the state which existed in the previous microsecond, meaning we have no choice but to travel on this roller coaster ride to a destiny over which we have no control.

Dear god, are you telling me that this if finally sinking in? In essence yes - in principle if you know every possible data point in the universe at a given time, then in principle you could work out from that every future state of the universe. Well done!

The reality…

Oh-oh – why do I sense that by “the reality” you’re actually about to mean yet more repetition of your utterly unqualified, irrational, evidence-denying set of personal faith opinions that just happen to make sense in you head?

… is that God has given us the power to choose our path of life and choose our ultimate destiny.  You are free to try to ignore this power and think up reasons why it cannot possibly exist - or you can acknowledge it and use it for your own good and the good of other people.

And sure enough, there comes your standard mindless bollocks.

Look, you started by accusing me of “flawed logic” but instead of justifying the claim by showing the flaw you just ignored the logic completely (again) and instead repeated a set of incoherent faith claims (again).

This is pathetic stuff Alan, it really is. 

[Sebastian Toe]

Yes, my ability to choose is done by me, and know I am free to make a conscious choice which is determined by me - not by past events which are beyond my conscious control.  I am in control.

Yet, if you or anyone else is hypnotised - the soul is not in control, is it?

If you taste a new food via the physical messages passed to your brain from your sense organs, and you find it disgusting, your soul cannot control that either, can it?

Doesn't seem to fit quite in with your "reality"!

[Stranger]

Taking your flawed logic...

The logic whose supposed flaws you have never, ever, even once made any attempt to point out.   

...to its inevitable conclusion would mean that from the moment we are born, every microsecond of our life on this earth will be entirely determined by the state which existed in the previous microsecond...

Assuming the universe is entirely deterministic, yes. Otherwise there would be some randomness.

....meaning we have no choice but to travel on this roller coaster ride to a destiny over which we have no control.

Except, of course, that a "roller coaster ride" would imply that nothing you think or want would make a difference. This is not true, what you think and decide, does make a difference, it's just that what you think and decide is the result or previous reasons. Your mind is definitely in control of your thoughts and actions (your absurd attempts to redefine the word 'control' aside).

Regardless of all that, this is, of course, an argumentum ad consequentiam fallacy.

The reality is that God has given us the power to choose our path of life and choose our ultimate destiny.

Mindless, reasoning-free, blind faith. Remember you said you had logic? Why do you keep it secret?

[ekim]

The reality is that God has given us the power to choose our path of life and choose our ultimate destiny.  You are free to try to ignore this power and think up reasons why it cannot possibly exist - or you can acknowledge it and use it for your own good and the good of other people.

You are still confusing the ability to choose with freedom.  If we assume that there is some truth in your above sentence then whatever is given by your God can similarly be taken away so your choice is determined by your God's Will not free from it.  Ignoring this ability is, as you say, determined by thought up reasons and the desire to follow those reasons and using it to do good is determined by the desire to do good.  The intention to act or not act (Will or Won't) does not appear to be free from 'Want' or desire.

[Outrider]

Because people know that their freedom to choose what they think, say or do is a reality, not an illusion.

People know that gravity is a force that pulls them down towards the planet, but people are wrong. People are wrong about things they 'know' all the time.

O.

[Alan Burns]

People know that gravity is a force that pulls them down towards the planet, but people are wrong. People are wrong about things they 'know' all the time.

O.

We do not understand how gravity works, but we know what it does.
Similarly we do not know how human free will works, but we know what it does - it enables us to manipulate the forces of nature to bring about human creativity, it enables us to contemplate nature and draw conclusions, it enables us to identify and choose between good and evil, it enables us to allow our human mind to soar far beyond the limits of what we perceive with our physical senses, it enables us to discover God and invite Him into our lives, it enables us to choose our own destiny

[Stranger]

We do not understand how gravity works, but we know what it does.

We actually have a good theory of gravity and it doesn't conform to what it seems to be. You seem to have missed that point.

Similarly we do not know how human free will works, but we know what it does...

Nobody knows that 'free will' does what you think it does, Alan. And anybody who's thought about it logically, knows that it cannot possibly do what you think it does. It is literally impossible to know that you could have chosen differently in exactly the same circumstances, and logically simple to see that, if you could have, the difference could only be random.

[Alan Burns]

Look, you started by accusing me of “flawed logic” but instead of justifying the claim by showing the flaw you just ignored the logic completely (again) and instead repeated a set of incoherent faith claims (again).

I have illustrated the flaw by showing that that logic leads to conclusions which are incompatible with the reality of our own existence.  My freedom to think for myself and make my own choices is at the heart of who I am.  I separates me from being just a channel through which the continuum of the material universe works.  My free will makes me what I am - without it the "I" in me does not exist.

[bluehillside Retd.]

AB,

We do not understand how gravity works, but we know what it does.
Similarly we do not know how human free will works, but we know what it does - it enables us to manipulate the forces of nature to bring about human creativity, it enables us to contemplate nature and draw conclusions, it enables us to identify and choose between good and evil, it enables us to allow our human mind to soar far beyond the limits of what we perceive with our physical senses,…

Sort of, but ok…

…it enables us to discover God and invite Him into our lives, it enables us to choose our own destiny

And there’s your cheat right there – using your premise as a Trojan Horse to sneak in your blind faith claim. What you should have said was something like, “it enables us to invent stories about gods and sometimes even to tell ourselves that we can invite the gods of our stories into our lives”.   

[bluehillside Retd.]

AB,

I have illustrated the flaw by showing that that logic leads to conclusions which are incompatible with the reality of our own existence.  My ability to think for myself and make my own choices is at the heart of who I am.  I separates me from being just a channel through which the continuum of the material universe works.  My free will makes me what I am - without it the "I" in me does not exist.

Oh dear. You've illustrated no such thing. What you’ve actually done is to convince yourself that some strongly-held opinions that are entirely unjustified with reason or evidence nonetheless constitute “reality”, so any logic that doesn’t lead to the same conclusion must therefore be flawed.

It’s completely arse-backwards thinking – logic leads to conclusions no matter what they happen to be, whereas you start with your conclusion and dismiss out of hand the logic that doesn’t support it.

Can you not see how idiotic this is, or have your critical faculties been so wrecked by blind faith that even the basic principle is forever beyond you?     

[Stranger]

I have illustrated the flaw by showing that that logic leads to conclusions which are incompatible with the reality of our own existence.

That's not a flaw, it's just a baseless assertion. You have not made any attempt to apply logic to the situation and demonstrate anything at all that people do that would require your impossible, self-contradictory version of 'freedom'.

My ability to think for myself and make my own choices is at the heart of who I am.

Nobody is denying that you think for yourself and make your own choices. You seem to be just assuming your conclusion, that because your thoughts are your own, they cannot also be the result of chains of cause and effect. You cannot assume a separate 'you' in order to prove a separate 'you'.

I separates me from being just a channel through which the continuum of the material universe works.

Another baseless assertion. And 'material' still doesn't matter. This is not about the physical world. What destroys your silly fantasy is just logic.

My free will makes me what I am - without it the "I" in me does not exist.

But you have provided zero reason (baseless assertions and personal incredulity aside) to believe that the 'I' isn't a part of the chains of cause and effect.

[Alan Burns]

It’s completely arse-backwards thinking – logic leads to conclusions no matter what they happen to be, whereas you start with your conclusion and dismiss out of hand the logic that doesn’t support it.

Short sighted logic which is entirely based on our the limitations of what can be perceived with our physical senses will inevitably lead to bad conclusions.

There is more to reality than what can be derived from our human efforts to try to explain reality and attempt to make it to fit in with our limited knowledge.

Trying to deny the existence of human free will by quoting our observation of time related cause and effect brings about the obvious contradiction :- that the effort require to do this is evidence for the reality of free will.

The short sighted logic makes the presumption that all reality must conform to the time related cause and effect perceived in our material universe.  It ignores the possibility of causes which can interact with our universe, but are not tied to the time dimension of our universe, and such a possibility would validate the reality we all experience in being free to make conscious choices which are influenced by, but not inevitably tied to past events.  As I have previously pointed out - from the datum of our conscious awareness, we exist and act in the present.  The possibility of our conscious awareness being the ever present window into this material world makes perfect sense.

[torridon]

I have illustrated the flaw by showing that that logic leads to conclusions which are incompatible with the reality of our own existence.  My freedom to think for myself and make my own choices is at the heart of who I am.  I separates me from being just a channel through which the continuum of the material universe works.  My free will makes me what I am - without it the "I" in me does not exist.

That's little different to the reasoning of a flat Earther.  The Earth seems flat, it seem stationary, it appears to be at the centre of the solar system because we can all see the Sun revolving around us day in, day out, without fail.  So, it must be flat, it must be stationary, and it must be the centre of the solar system. 

Like the flat Earther, you are just ignoring the deeper if sometime counterintuitive insights revealed by science, and sticking doggedly to 'how it seems'.

[torridon]

..

Trying to deny the existence of human free will by quoting our observation of time related cause and effect brings about the obvious contradiction :- that the effort require to do this is evidence for the reality of free will.

..

Nope, its been pointed out innumerable times on this thread already, that merely doing what we want does not constitute evidence for free will.  That is merely the exercise of our will, such as it is.  To demonstrate evidence for free will you would need to do the impossible experiment of reversing time to see if someone could have made a different choice in the same circumstance.  Ain't gonna happen.

[bluehillside Retd.]

AB,

Short sighted logic…

You have a very bad habit of prefacing terms with pejoratives instead of making arguments of your own. Logic can’t be short-sighted – it’s just either sound or not sound. It just make you appear desperate (or worse) when you do this, and you should stop it.

…which is entirely based on our the limitations of what can be perceived with our physical senses will inevitably lead to bad conclusions.

You’ve missed the point entirely. The logic here concerns your reasons for thinking your beliefs are true – that’s all. What that logic actually tells us is those reasons are wrong. Badly wrong. Either that or they don't exist at all. Whether or not you like the consequences of that says nothing to the logic that undoes your reasoning. 

There is more to reality than what can be derived from our human efforts to try to explain reality and attempt to make it to fit in with our limited knowledge.

No-one has suggested otherwise. You mistake though is to think that blind faith is a robust way to identify what these other realities might be.

Trying to deny the existence of human free will by quoting our observation of time related cause and effect brings about the obvious contradiction :- that the effort require to do this is evidence for the reality of free will.

You’ve retreated into dishonest misrepresentation again here. For the reasons that have been explained to you over and over again (and that you are never honest enough to address) it’s not evidence for that at all. Not even close.   

The short sighted logic…

See point one above. You’re just making a fool of yourself again here.

…makes the presumption that all reality must conform to the time related cause and effect perceived in our material universe.

Stop lying. What it actually does is to draw conclusions based on observation.

It ignores the possibility of causes which can interact with our universe, but are not tied to the time dimension of our universe, and such a possibility would validate the reality we all experience in being free to make conscious choices which are influenced by, but not inevitably tied to past events.

You’ve collapsed into incoherence again now. It “ignores” anything that has no logic of its own for comparison purposes. Incoherent and self-contradictory guessing just puts you back into not even wrong territory. There's nothing to consider - it's all white noise.   

As I have previously pointed out –

No, as you have previously asserted. “Pointing out” and mindless assertion are not same thing.

…from the datum of our conscious awareness, we exist and act in the present.

“…from the datum of our conscious awareness” the earth is flat, objects touch and gravity pulls us down. “The datum of our conscious awareness” is an exceptionally poor guide to reality. How many times does this have to be explained to you? 

The possibility of our conscious awareness being the ever present window into this material world makes perfect sense.

No, it’s an incoherent, ill-considered, dog’s breakfast mess of mindless assertion, wishful thinking and blind faith masquerading as an argument that you cling to desperately nonetheless to preserve a suite of frankly idiotic religious convictions. 

[Stranger]

Trying to deny the existence of human free will by quoting our observation of time related cause and effect brings about the obvious contradiction :- that the effort require to do this is evidence for the reality of free will.

What contradiction? This is still (just like all the countless other times you've mindlessly repeated it) an utterly baseless thought- and logic-free assertion.

Where is the contradiction? (Apart from in your own personal incredulity, that is.)

What is it about anything that we do that requires the ability to have done differently in exactly the same situation? And I'm not asking for another baseless assertion, what is the specific logical connection?

The short sighted logic makes the presumption that all reality must conform to the time related cause and effect perceived in our material universe.  It ignores the possibility of causes which can interact with our universe, but are not tied to the time dimension of our universe...

It doesn't matter whether they exist in the time dimension of our universe, unless they exist in some time dimension, they can't possibly interact with our universe (or anything else, an interaction is a time-dependant phenomenon). Just existing in a different time dimension doesn't solve the problem you have with determinism or randomness.

...and such a possibility would validate the reality we all experience in being free to make conscious choices which are influenced by, but not inevitably tied to past events.

The way things subjectively feel is not a 'reality we experience'.

As I have previously pointed out - from the datum of our conscious awareness, we exist and act in the present.  The possibility of our conscious awareness being the ever present window into this material world makes perfect sense.

It makes no sense at all. Nothing at all that you've posted about this suggests that it is anything other than a mindless, gibberish, thought-free mantra you keep repeating to yourself (and typing here) to try to convince yourself that you have a way out of the obvious logic of the situation. You might as well type "om, om, om", for all the meaning it has.

If you had any genuine confidence you'd stop just repeating it and try to explain it logically. Something that doesn't exist in time cannot possibly 'act' or do anything. "The present" is not something that has any logically relevant meaning.

[Alan Burns]

That's little different to the reasoning of a flat Earther.  The Earth seems flat, it seem stationary, it appears to be at the centre of the solar system because we can all see the Sun revolving around us day in, day out, without fail.  So, it must be flat, it must be stationary, and it must be the centre of the solar system. 

Like the flat Earther, you are just ignoring the deeper if sometime counterintuitive insights revealed by science, and sticking doggedly to 'how it seems'.

The concept of a flat earth stems from the data we perceive from our sensory organs and as such it is open to misinterpretation.
The concept of free will stems from our innermost being - it defines who we are, not what we are.