Searching for GOD...

[bluehillside Retd.]

Vlad,

Jesus, God incarnated, was born, lived died and was resurrected. He ascended to heaven and that is the point where observational data ceased. He is not, biblically any way a unique resurrected.

Yes, I’m aware of the myth. What I was asking you though was, if the story has him as a “god incarnate” (and therefore, presumably, immortal) how comes he got to be dead for bit nonetheless? 

Our own story is that we are born, die and then are resurrected to eternal life or eternal damnation

 dependent on our choices.

Er, no – depending on whether that story is total bollocks I think you should say there. And, so far at least, you’ve provided no grounds at all to suggest that it isn’t total bollocks. 

So anyway, about this immortal “god incarnate” who wound up dead then…?   

[Sebastian Toe]

He ascended to heaven and that is the point where observational data ceased.

I'm fascinated by that point.
Who observed him ascending to heaven?

[bluehillside Retd.]

Seb,

I'm fascinated by that point.
Who observed him ascending to heaven?

I reckon it was Mohammed as he shot past on his winged horse... 

[Nearly Sane]

I'm fascinated by that point.
Who observed him ascending to heaven?

Jeff Bezos, Elon Musk, and Richard Branson

[bluehillside Retd.]

NS,

Jeff Bezos, Elon Musk, and Richard Branson

Plus William Shatner of course. 

[Walt Zingmatilder]

I'm fascinated by that point.
Who observed him ascending to heaven?

The remaining 11 disciples according to Luke.

[Sebastian Toe]

The remaining 11 disciples according to Luke.

...and they knew he was ascending to heaven, how exactly?

[Walt Zingmatilder]

Vlad,

Yes, I’m aware of the myth. What I was asking you though was, if the story has him as a “god incarnate” (and therefore, presumably, immortal) how comes he got to be dead for bit nonetheless? 

Er, no – depending on whether that story is total bollocks I think you should say there. And, so far at least, you’ve provided no grounds at all to suggest that it isn’t total bollocks. 

So anyway, about this immortal “god incarnate” who wound up dead then…?

God incarnate, Jesus the God-Man, enters the material world at a place and point in history. In other words when he incarnates At that point he enters the world and history, Lives a human life which ends with his ministry, death and resurrection which occurs in history as the means of starting the church. When Jesus ascends it is back to the father as it were. He has to become the God man because Man or people come into being. And being man he experiences Human mortality and being human he also experiences resurrection.

So the evidence is biblical. If you believe that the New Testament is even in part historical. I would move that there are other reasons for your incredulity here.

[Walt Zingmatilder]

...and they knew he was ascending to heaven, how exactly?

He told them that's where he was going and they had no reason to doubt him One can surmise from Luke that the ascension was an unusual phenomenon which would add to their conviction.

[Sebastian Toe]

He told them that's where he was going and they had no reason to doubt him One can surmise from Luke that the ascension was an unusual phenomenon which would add to their conviction.

Heaven or at least a portal/pathway to it, it must be assumed was visible to them then?

[Outrider]

He told them that's where he was going and they had no reason to doubt him.

Do you know if these guys are still around, I have a bridge I'm trying to sell...

One can surmise from Luke that the ascension was an unusual phenomenon which would add to their conviction.

That is indeed one way - one extremely credulous way - you could choose to interpret that.

O.

[Walt Zingmatilder]

Heaven or at least a portal/pathway to it, it must be assumed was visible to them then?

There was some process called ascension beyond that I know not how to describe it in scientific terms but presumably they weren't pouring over a radar screen. I think they saw something mysterious.

[Walt Zingmatilder]

Do you know if these guys are still around,

Yes, in heaven.

[Sebastian Toe]

Yes, in heaven.

Does it have a location relative to our universe?

[Outrider]

Yes, in heaven.

So you don't know, you believe.

O.

[jeremyp]

Christians claim that Jesus is God(not just a god)

If Jesus is God, then Jesus is a god.

and make the same claim for both the Father and the Holy spirit.

So you admit they are all gods. There are three of them which means your claim that I didn't address the point is false.

Regarding the definition of god(Just another god), you haven't defined what this is yet so I am not able to venture my opinion.

Have you completely forgotten your command of English vocabulary? First you didn't understand the word "three". Now you claim not to know what a god is.

Let's cut to the chase. The Christian concept of the Trinity is logically incoherent, ast least as presented by people such as yourself. If it were just a "godhead" composed of three gods, it wouldn't be a problem just as a football team composed of eleven players is not a problem. But the problem then would be that Christianity has many gods. Using the Merriam Webster definition:

a spirit or being that has great power, strength, knowledge, etc., and that can affect nature and the lives of people : one of various spirits or beings worshipped in some religions

Under this definition, all three elements of the Trinity are gods as is Satan and perhaps the angels and demons.

The problem is that Christians see monotheistic religions as superior to polytheistic ones for some unfathomable reason (actually, if one god is better than many gods, extrapolating: no gods is better than one god). So they engage in contradictory bullshit to pretend 1 = 3.

[jeremyp]

He told them that's where he was going and they had no reason to doubt him One can surmise from Luke that the ascension was an unusual phenomenon which would add to their conviction.

If I told you I was going to jump across the Avon Gorge would you have any reason to doubt me?

By the way, I think there is strong evidence that either Luke or Matthew or one of their sources made up the ascension story.

[jeremyp]

Yes, in heaven.

I thought you said the observational data ceases when people get to heaven? What's your evidence that they are still there and still alive?

[Walt Zingmatilder]

Does it have a location relative to our universe?

Location? You mean spatial coordinates? No, it is not subject to those IMHO.

[Walt Zingmatilder]

If Jesus is God, then Jesus is a god.

As a monotheist I think there is only one God so there cannot be multiple Gods

.  So you admit they are all gods.

How can I when I think that there cannot be multiple Gods. I therefore think they are all God.

There are three of them which means your claim that I didn't address the point is false.

Although there may be three persons there is only one God, it's a bit like thinking that Ice , Water and steam are all H20

Have you completely forgotten your command of English vocabulary? First you didn't understand the word "three"

I understand that one substance can exist simultaneously in three states

Now you claim not to know what a god is

No, I am claiming that you didn't define what a god is although in our conversation more has come to light in that you suggest there could be multiple ''small g'' gods. Can you expand on what these things have in common. or what separates each one to render them individual gods?

Let's cut to the chase. The Christian concept of the Trinity is logically incoherent, as least as presented by people such as yourself.

That's just what I call ''marking someone's homework on something rather than dealing with theology professionally worked out rather than roughed out on a message board.

  If it were just a "godhead" composed of three gods, it wouldn't be a problem just as a football team composed of eleven players is not a problem. But the problem then would be that Christianity has many gods. Using the Merriam Webster definition:

If you are saying refer to the merriam webster site for your definition of god, I will certainly do that. I do not find the proposition that the one substance can exist in three states at all unusual as hopefully I have demonstrated citing the analogy of H20.

Under this definition, all three elements of the Trinity are gods as is Satan and perhaps the angels and demons.

I reject that definition as applying to the trinity

The problem is that Christians see monotheistic religions as superior to polytheistic ones for some unfathomable reason (actually, if one god is better than many gods, extrapolating: no gods is better than one god). So they engage in contradictory bullshit to pretend 1 = 3.

see previous about the one substance in three states. The problem with the polytheism's Christianity has historically encountered in the west is that the nature of the gods can be described as superhuman rather than the abrahamic view of the one being the creator and judge of all. The story of christianity is the harmony of the persons of the Godhead above the drama of humanity. The various pantheons do not have a Godhead but rather a head god who is not just an arbiter in the struggles and intrigues of lesser gods but is joyfully involved in them. They did not stimulate feats of thought as say Plato or aristotles parallel conception of God as the one, or 1st century Judaism or Christianity.

[bluehillside Retd.]

Vlad,

God incarnate, Jesus the God-Man, enters the material world at a place and point in history.

In other words when he incarnates At that point he enters the world and history, Lives a human life which ends with his ministry, death and resurrection…[

Right, so in this story was this “God incarnate” at this stage immortal or not? Why be so coy about this – it’s a simple enough question isn’t it?

…which occurs in history…

No it doesn’t. The tests for historicity are much more rigorous that that.

…as the means of starting the church.

Surely there must have been a less bloodthirsty way of doing that than human sacrifice (though only for a bit) don’t you think?

When Jesus ascends it is back to the father as it were. He has to become the God man…

Hang on – you just told us that he already was a “God man” (“Jesus the God-man”) remember? Which is it – he was already that when he arrived in “the material world”, or only became that later when he “ascends…back to the Father”?

You need to sort your story out here.

…because Man or people come into being.

So according to you there were no “Man or people” (sic) until Jesus “ascended back to the Father” then. So how did that work – did he just walk around on his own for 30-odd years, then crucify himself, and then people popped into existence? What?

You’re all over the place here.

And being man he experiences Human mortality and being human he also experiences resurrection.

What’s the difference between “being man” and “being Human” (sic)?

So the evidence is biblical.

So not evidence at all then – just some accounts of dubious provenance, heavily redacted and multiply translated long afterwards by people with a vested interest in the outcome.

Riiiight...

If you believe that the New Testament is even in part historical. I would move that there are other reasons for your incredulity here.

Yes – the part that you rely on that isn’t historical at all. 

[bluehillside Retd.]

Vlad,

He told them that's where he was going and they had no reason to doubt him

Much as I’d love to discuss this I have to tell you that I’m off to Atlantis for a drinks party in a bit so I’ll take a rain check if that’s ok. 

One can surmise from Luke that the ascension was an unusual phenomenon which would add to their conviction.

One can “surmise” anything – good luck though finding your way from an (allegedly) “unusual phenomenon” and an actual “ascension”.   

[Walt Zingmatilder]

Vlad,

Right, so in this story was this “God incarnate” at this stage immortal or not? Why be so coy about this – it’s a simple enough question isn’t it?

No because I do not know whether you accept the Christian definition of immortal where God's immortality is due to his nature and man's immortality is due to the act of God.

Surely there must have been a less bloodthirsty way of doing that than human sacrifice (though only for a bit) don’t you think?

There's a nice way of getting rid of somebody? Professor Plum with the poison? reverend Green with an efficient blow with the lead pipe, Perhaps.

Hang on – you just told us that he already was a “God man” (“Jesus the God-man”) remember? Which is it – he was already that when he arrived in “the material world”, or only became that later when he “ascends…back to the Father”?

You can only become the God Man when you are conceived and born as a man, Prior to that you are God. That seems pretty straight forward.

[Outrider]

As a monotheist I think there is only one God so there cannot be multiple Gods

The tenets of the majority of the formalised expressions of your religion count three distinct bodies formally dubbed as 'gods' - Father, Son, Holy Spirit, to give one expression of them. Then there are the wealth of other supernatural beings considered to be part of the 'hierarchy' (i.e angels) which are somewhat arbitrarily considered not to be of a similar ilk. Then there are the wealth of other gods from the original pantheon your deity comes from in antiquity. You might claim to be a monotheist, I have no reason to doubt that you genuinely believe that there is only one god, but that doesn't appear to mesh with the Christian doctrine (which also, in defiance of the evidence, claims to be monotheist as I understand it).

Although there may be three persons there is only one God, it's a bit like thinking that Ice , Water and steam are all H20.

So 'god' is what, a quality? A material from which these beings are constructed? A piece of ice is not the entirety of water, so is 'The Father' all of God? The important thing about the states of matter is that one example - one accumulation of the material - cannot be in multiple states at once. You can have something that's water at one point in time and undergoes a transformation to ice or steam or potentially even plasma or a few others. But it's not both steam and water at the same time: I understand (and correct me if I'm wrong) that the Christian depiction is that the Father and the Holy Spirit are both god at the same time?

I reject that definition as applying to the trinity

Oh, you reject it. OK, that's fine. Well then I reject your rejection, no backsies! Why do you reject it? What, functionally, materially, fundamentally, is the difference in nature between, say, Jesus and Lucifer?

The problem with the polytheism's Christianity has historically encountered in the west is that the nature of the gods can be described as superhuman rather than the abrahamic view of the one being the creator and judge of all.

Not really. Most pantheons have a creator figure, in Christianity it's the Logos - in the beginning there was the Word. Many have a judge of the dead - Rhadamanthys, Minos and Aiakos in Greek myth, Ma'at in Egypt, Yama in Hinduism, Hel in Norse mythology... In the Canaanite pantheon from which Yahweh emerged, El was considered the creator deity, I'm not sure if we know enough about them to know if they had a concept of judging souls at that stage, or if their deities were not still primarily tribal.

The story of christianity is the harmony of the persons of the Godhead above the drama of humanity.

The Christian depiction of the Story of Christianity, perhaps. The history of Christianity is somewhat different.

The various pantheons do not have a Godhead but rather a head god who is not just an arbiter in the struggles and intrigues of lesser gods but is joyfully involved in them.

They have a concept of divinity that is shared - and diluted - amongst various levels of supernatural beings, which is a similar situation to the Christian Holy Trinity (Zeus, Hades and Poseidon, say), the archangels (the lesser deities), the saints and angelic offspring like Nepheliem (demi-gods)...

O.

[bluehillside Retd.]

Vlad,

No because I do not know whether you accept the Christian definition of immortal where God's immortality is due to his nature and man's immortality is due to the act of God.

Leaving aside whether or not that’s “the Christian definition” at all, it’s irrelevant. Again: if you think there was a “man-god” about the place before he was crucified, was this supposed man-god immortal at that time or not?   

There's a nice way of getting rid of somebody? Professor Plum with the poison? reverend Green with an efficient blow with the lead pipe, Perhaps.

There’s certainly a nicer way than getting rid of somebody at all don’t you think? Why do you suppose this god of your decided to go full Tarantino rather than figure out a less psychopathic way of achieving his ends?

You can only become the God Man when you are conceived and born as a man, Prior to that you are God. That seems pretty straight forward.

Very funny. Again: after Jesus was born and before he was crucified in your story was he a god (ie immortal) or did he only get to be that way once he “ascended back to the Father”?   

Oh, and I see you just ignored your confusion re timelines and the arrival of people. Do you need more time to sort out your story perhaps?