Searching for GOD...

[Walt Zingmatilder]

The tenets of the majority of the formalised expressions of your religion count three distinct bodies formally dubbed as 'gods' - Father, Son, Holy Spirit, to give one expression of them.

I don't think that is true Then there are the wealth of other supernatural beings considered to be part of the 'hierarchy' (i.e angels) which are somewhat arbitrarily considered not to be of a similar ilk. Then there are the wealth of other gods from the original pantheon your deity comes from in antiquity. You might claim to be a monotheist, I have no reason to doubt that you genuinely believe that there is only one god, but that doesn't appear to mesh with the Christian doctrine (which also, in defiance of the evidence, claims to be monotheist as I understand it).[/quote] This is just not true.

So 'god' is what, a quality? A material from which these beings are constructed? A piece of ice is not the entirety of water, so is 'The Father' all of God? The important thing about the states of matter is that one example - one accumulation of the material - cannot be in multiple states at once. You can have something that's water at one point in time and undergoes a transformation to ice or steam or potentially even plasma or a few others. But it's not both steam and water at the same time: I understand (and correct me if I'm wrong) that the Christian depiction is that the Father and the Holy Spirit are both god at the same time?

Ice exists in my scotch while water exists simultaneously in the jug next to it. Simultaneously the kettle has started steaming. Tell me now that steam, water and Ice cannot exist at the same time.

Oh, you reject it. OK, that's fine. Well then I reject your rejection, no backsies! Why do you reject it? What, functionally, materially, fundamentally, is the difference in nature between, say, Jesus and Lucifer?

Lucifer is a contingent being.

Not really. Most pantheons have a creator figure, in Christianity it's the Logos - in the beginning there was the Word. Many have a judge of the dead - Rhadamanthys, Minos and Aiakos in Greek myth, Ma'at in Egypt, Yama in Hinduism, Hel in Norse mythology... In the Canaanite pantheon from which Yahweh emerged, El was considered the creator deity, I'm not sure if we know enough about them to know if they had a concept of judging souls at that stage, or if their deities were not still primarily tribal.

I am not averse to the idea of people getting glimpses of the one god in there religion

The Christian depiction of the Story of Christianity, perhaps. The history of Christianity is somewhat different.

They have a concept of divinity that is shared - and diluted - amongst various levels of supernatural beings, which is a similar situation to the Christian Holy Trinity (Zeus, Hades and Poseidon, say), the archangels (the lesser deities), the saints and angelic offspring like Nepheliem (demi-gods)...

O.
[/quote]Again this is unrecognisable. There is no divinity imputed into the archangels, angels, nephilim etc. in christianity.

In short you have put forward the mother and father of all strawmen.

[jeremyp]

As a monotheist I think there is only one God so there cannot be multiple Gods

So which one of Jesus, his Father and the Holy Spirit are you going to pick?

How can I when I think that there cannot be multiple Gods. I therefore think they are all God.

They are three separate entities. Either they are all gods or one of them is a god or they aren't three entities. Pick one...

Although there may be three persons there is only one God, it's a bit like thinking that Ice , Water and steam are all H20

I understand that one substance can exist simultaneously in three states

That's an interesting and thought provoking analogy.

You have chosen one entity. So who was Jesus talking to on the cross when he said "My God, why have you forsaken me?" If God was in his Jesus form, there was nobody to talk to. Also, to whom was he praying in the Garden of Gethsemene? And who did the resurrecting? If Jesus was dead, God was dead and therefore incapable of action. Or did Jesus have some sort of timer?

It does answer the question as to why you never see Jesus and the Holy Spirit together in the same room.

No, I am claiming that you didn't define what a god is although in our conversation more has come to light in that you suggest there could be multiple ''small g'' gods.

There are no gods of any sort in my opinion. But a lot of people do believe in such gods, including Christians.

The various pantheons do not have a Godhead but rather a head god who is not just an arbiter in the struggles and intrigues of lesser gods but is joyfully involved in them. They did not stimulate feats of thought as say Plato or aristotles parallel conception of God as the one, or 1st century Judaism or Christianity.

Under the usual definition of "god", Satan certainly qualifies.

[Walt Zingmatilder]

Vlad,

Leaving aside whether or not that’s “the Christian definition” at all, it’s irrelevant. Again: if you think there was a “man-god” about the place before he was crucified, was this supposed man-god immortal at that time or not?

At the time he was capable of dying physically yes but at the same time he was also capable of being resurrected like any human being. 

There’s certainly a nicer way than getting rid of somebody at all don’t you think? Why do you suppose this god of your decided to go full Tarantino rather than figure out a less psychopathic way of achieving his ends?

You mean like going up toward the cross then suddenly the cross drops and Jesus has vanished (well you are waxing cinemagraphically)
What of sin in that case? How has God fully identified with humanity and taken on the sin and separation of sin in a way that makes human sense?

Very funny. Again: after Jesus was born and before he was crucified in your story was he a god (ie immortal) or did he only get to be that way once he “ascended back to the Father”?

He was God incarnate i.e.The man God. 
He lived a human life Born died and resurrected (only on earth).

[Walt Zingmatilder]

So which one of Jesus, his Father and the Holy Spirit are you going to pick?

I pick God

They are three separate entities.

No they are not 

.

You have chosen one entity. So who was Jesus talking to on the cross when he said "My God, why have you forsaken me?" If God was in his Jesus form, there was nobody to talk to. Also, to whom was he praying in the Garden of Gethsemene? And who did the resurrecting? If Jesus was dead, God was dead and therefore incapable of action. Or did Jesus have some sort of timer?

Jesus was also fully human so had every right to talk to and about God like this. God resurrected him. Also have you never heard of self talk?

It does answer the question as to why you never see Jesus and the Holy Spirit together in the same room.

How droll

There are no gods of any sort in my opinion.

OK.

But a lot of people do believe in such gods, including Christians.

That's wrong

Under the usual definition of "god", Satan certainly qualifies.

I think that when you consulted Merriam Webster you ignored definition 1 and skipped to two. This defines a god as a superhuman being. Ignoring definition 1 is crucial to your argument and in the light of that, it renders you and Outsider as talking through your trousers on this topic.

[bluehillside Retd.]

Vlad,

At the time he was capable of dying physically yes…

So not immortal at all then, and therefore just a person and not a god right?

…but at the same time he was also capable of being resurrected like any human being.

That’s just your unqualified faith claim so I’ll treat it accordingly.
 

You mean like going up toward the cross then suddenly the cross drops and Jesus has vanished (well you are waxing cinemagraphically)

No, I mean like not bothering with the crucifixion at all and having the smarts to work out a less sociopathic way to achieve his ends. Surely this god of ours would have been bright enough to do that don’t you think?

What of sin in that case? How has God fully identified with humanity and taken on the sin and separation of sin in a way that makes human sense?

None of it “makes human sense” (except to the credulous), but what of it? If you think there’s something called “sin”, only for some reason people (the people you now seem to have decided did exist at the time after all) didn’t know about it before Jesus was temporarily killed then why not work out a less savage way to get the message to them? Did this god of ours just lack the wit or imagination to do that or something?   
   

He was God incarnate The man God.

Again he lived a human life Born died and resurrected (only on earth).

In what way was he the god part of “man God” if he wasn’t immortal then?

Have you sorted out your timeline yet re the arrival of people by the way?   

[Alan Burns]

The presumption that our somewhat limited brain functionality is capable of making sense of life, the universe and everything is a trite optimistic to say the least.  I find the divine revelations of the Christian bible, coupled with my own experiences, make far more sense of our existence that any of the man made attempts, and I see nothing in our supposedly enlightened age which can seriously contradict the core beliefs of the Christian faith.

[bluehillside Retd.]

AB,

The presumption that our somewhat limited brain functionality is capable of making sense of life, the universe and everything is a trite optimistic to say the least.

No it isn’t. We do “make sense” of these things, which is what allows us to navigate the world we occupy. That’s not to say that there’s not much more to understand, but that’s a different matter.

I find the divine revelations of the Christian bible, coupled with my own experiences, make far more sense of our existence that any of the man made attempts,…

These are “man made attempts” (sic), and crude ones at that. If you want to demonstrate that anything has been “revealed” rather than just appeals to your conformation basis though go right ahead and give it a go, but for now at least all you have is assertions about that.

…and I see nothing in our supposedly enlightened age which can seriously contradict the core beliefs of the Christian faith.

Yes, people who refuse to look usually don’t see anything. You can’t blame us for trying to persuade you to look though, even though you resolutely refuse to do so   

[Outrider]

I don't think that is true

You don't think the majority of Christian sects consider the Holy Trinity to be both distinct and yet part of the same whole? I wasn't the most attentive, but I that seemed pretty foundational to mainstream Western Christianity.

This is just not true.

I said no backsies.

Ice exists in my scotch while water exists simultaneously in the jug next to it. Simultaneously the kettle has started steaming. Tell me now that steam, water and Ice cannot exist at the same time.

But they are different pieces of water - you have a poly-aquatic situation. You can't hold up your ice, swirl the jug and point to the steam and say there is only one glass of water here.

Lucifer is a contingent being.

Based on what? The poetic translation of a polytheism claiming monotheism - not the most reliable of sources.

I am not averse to the idea of people getting glimpses of the one god in there religion

I'm sure they'll be appropriately acknowledging of your largesse.
 

Again this is unrecognisable. There is no divinity imputed into the archangels, angels, nephilim etc. in christianity.

If you could in any way define or demonstrate what is 'divinity' and how it differs from the other supernatural powers of the various entities that you can't demonstrate you'd be able to make a case, but you can't. You just have an assertion that they're different because reasons.

In short you have put forward the mother and father of all strawmen.

No, I've put a different and absolutely equally unproveable interpretation on unsubstantiated claims - how do you 'strawman' the mother of all scarecrows?

O.

[Outrider]

The presumption that our somewhat limited brain functionality is capable of making sense of life, the universe and everything is a trite optimistic to say the least.

Individually, perhaps, collectively maybe not. However, the possible inability to understand absolutely everything does not preclude the ability to point out obvious contradictions and nonsensicalities in what is offered as non-explanations.

I find the divine revelations of the Christian bible, coupled with my own experiences, make far more sense of our existence that any of the man made attempts, and I see nothing in our supposedly enlightened age which can seriously contradict the core beliefs of the Christian faith.

If you accept explanations without needing to have them in any way justified, then I don't doubt anything can contradict your faith - you're not accepting an argument in the first place, you're sanctifying ignorance with faith claims and then dismissing logic when it contradicts in order to maintain the holy 'mystery'.

O.

[Walt Zingmatilder]

Vlad,

So not immortal at all then, and therefore just a person and not a god right?

No, he died as the God Man.

That’s just your unqualified faith claim so I’ll treat it accordingly.

Unqualified in terms of what? Materialism, Naturalism, what?

No, I mean like not bothering with the crucifixion at all and having the smarts to work out a less sociopathic way to achieve his ends. Surely this god of ours would have been bright enough to do that don’t you think?

I think it was humans who dictated what his end would be. Sociopathic? Not at all. The way of salvation and the way to God established, identification with humanity as opposed to upsetting the sensibility of modern folk some of who in terms of death are willing to let over a hundred thousand deaths pass without any sense of tragedy.

[Walt Zingmatilder]

You don't think the majority of Christian sects consider the Holy Trinity to be both distinct and yet part of the same whole? I wasn't the most attentive, but I that seemed pretty foundational to mainstream Western Christianity.

Not in the sense of being separate deities or gods or a pantheon.

[bluehillside Retd.]

Vlad,

No, he died as the God Man.

Like Outy perhaps I didn’t pay enough attention at the time but isn’t it pretty fundamental to stories about god(s) that they’re immortal? If you claim the god part of Jesus how then could he have died, and if you want to claim that he died (for a bit) how then was he also a god?
   

Unqualified in terms of what? Materialism, Naturalism, what?

Something other than you just asserting it to be so, but reason and evidence might be a good place to start yes. If you think neither is up to that job though, then (finally) suggest something else to distinguish your assertions from unqualified faith claims. (You know – the part you always run away from.)

I think it was humans who dictated what his end would be.

You’re getting your own faith stories arse-backwards again. If this god of yours wanted a “sinless” world, that was the end “He” decided on was it not? Presumably you must think that people were happily raping and pillaging all the while before Jesus showed up, so why would they have wanted a different end from that?     

Sociopathic? Not at all. The way of salvation and the way to God established, identification with humanity as opposed to upsetting the sensibility of modern folk some of who in terms of death are willing to let over a hundred thousand deaths pass without any sense of tragedy.

You don’t think engineering a human sacrifice is sociopathic, especially when an intelligent god could presumably have worked out a less savage way to achieve “His” purpose?

Here we go...only atheists are properly human. It was a long time coming but we got there in the end.

Even for you that’s a particularly bizarre straw man to try don’t you think?

Oh, and as you’ve avoided it again perhaps you’d like to clear up whether mankind appeared only after Jesus was crucified as you claimed or before?

Why be so evasive about this?     

[Walt Zingmatilder]

Vlad,

Like Outy perhaps I didn’t pay enough attention at the time but isn’t it pretty fundamental to stories about god(s) that they’re immortal? If you claim the god part of Jesus how then could he have died, and if you want to claim that he died (for a bit) how then was he also a god?

He died as the God man. The God man's only way back is resurrection by God. The death completes the experience as we the living see it from our perspective. What happened after death....are the God and the man separated? perhaps, Christ's human physical functions have ceased after all The qualifications of birth, life and death are in any case fulfilled.

In terms of the savagery, People die savagely, why should the God Man spare himself from that?
Dismissing sin lightly is itself a sin in otherwords one to cover a multitude of sin.

[bluehillside Retd.]

Vlad,

He died as the God man.

Why have you just ignored the question again? If he was a god (ie immortal) then he couldn't have died, and if he died then he wasn't a god (ie, immortal) right?

Your only way out is to claim god status but without the immortal part, in which case you'd need to tell us which new definition of "god" you're trying here.
 

The God man's only way back is resurrection by God. The death completes the experience as we the living see it from our perspective. What happened after death....are the God and the man separated perhaps, Christ's human physical functions have ceased after all The qualifications of birth, life and death are in any case fulfilled.

This is just gibberish, incoherence, white noise. Do you actually think there's a coherent thought in there struggling to get out?

In terms of the savagery, People die savagely, why should the God Man spare himself from that?

For the same reason that you go to the dentist when you have toothache even though other people don't have access to dentists - because it would have avoided unnecessary suffering. Of course a sociopathic god would indeed have plumped for the unnecessary suffering option I guess, but I'm not sure you mean that to be the type of god you're peddling here?   

Dismissing sin lightly is itself a sin in otherwords one to cover a multitude of sin.

Perhaps if you managed to demonstrate that there's such a thing as "sin" you'd have better luck about complaining that people dismiss it?

What's the latest re sorting out your timeline re people being here before or after the crucifixion of Jesus by the way - do you need more time to get your story straight?   

[Gordon]

I find the divine revelations of the Christian bible, coupled with my own experiences, make far more sense of our existence that any of the man made attempts, and I see nothing in our supposedly enlightened age which can seriously contradict the core beliefs of the Christian faith.

That's just you though, Alan: I find that none of "the core beliefs of the Christian faith" make any sense whatsoever - for example, the notion that Jesus' death back in antiquity is somehow relevant to any 'sins' of mine is just plain bonkers.

[Walt Zingmatilder]

Vlad,

Why have you just ignored the question again? If he was a god (ie immortal) then he couldn't have died, and if he died then he wasn't a god (ie, immortal) right?

He is both God and man. That dies when Jesus died. The man has gone so there cannot be a God Man. The only possible reversal of that is to be resurrected by God.
 You are ignoring that he is the God Man who died. What I am not doing is answering you on the grounds of your paradigm where Christ's humanity is of no consequence apparently.

Your only way out is to claim god status but without the immortal part, in which case you'd need to tell us which new definition of "god" you're trying here.

As I say I am not trying to escape your paradigm because I've never been in it.

Jesus is the God Man and can only ''physically be'' from his conception to his death and thereafter from his resurrection.

[bluehillside Retd.]

Vlad,

He is both God and man. That dies when Jesus died. The man has gone so there cannot be a God Man. The only possible reversal of that is to be resurrected by God. You are ignoring that he is the God Man who died. What I am not doing is answering you on the grounds of your paradigm where Christ's humanity is of no consequence apparently.

FFS, stop running away will you. If he died then he wasn’t immortal and therefore not a god (according to most definitions of that term). On the other hand if he was a god (and therefore immortal according to most definitions of that term) then he couldn’t have died.

Capiche?

Your only way out of that is (as I explained and you just ignored) would be to arrive at a definition of “god” that’s something like “a deity, only without the immortal part included”. In what way that would mean he was still a god is anyone’s guess, but these are the knots in which you tie yourself when you make fundamentally contradictory claims and assertions of this type. 

As I say I am not trying to escape your paradigm because I've never been in it.

Yes you have. And in it you remain unless you can reason your way out of it rather than repeat endlessly “he was a man God” (sic) like a broken speak your weight machine…

Jesus is the God Man and can only ''be'' from his conception to his death(perhaps) and thereafter from his resurrection.

… just like this in fact.

Oh, and as you’ve just ignored it again: what's the latest re sorting out your timeline re people being here before or after the crucifixion of Jesus by the way - do you need even more time to get your story straight?   

[Walt Zingmatilder]

Vlad,

FFS, stop running away will you. If he died then he wasn’t immortal and therefore not a god (according to most definitions of that term). On the other hand if he was a god (and therefore immortal according to most definitions of that term) then he couldn’t have died.

Capiche?

I ''capiche'' that once again there is zero mention of Christ's humanity. Why are you trying to saddle Christianity with a Jesus it doesn't believe in anyway?

Your only way out of that is (as I explained and you just ignored) would be to arrive at a definition of “god” that’s something like “a deity, only without the immortal part included”.

where's Christ's humanity?

Yes you have. And in it you remain unless you can reason your way out of it rather than repeat endlessly “he was a man God” (sic) like a broken speak your weight machine…

Because that is the claim after which you somehow bang on about ''a'' deity which Merriam Webster describes as a ''Superhuman'' or ''spirit ''. WHERE'S THE LINKED HUMANITY in your description of Jesus?

I'm not running away Jesus was man and God. He was conceived, born, lived life and died like the rest of us.
You have a theory that seems to be akin that he was God and his humanity was a kind of holy hologram or optical illusion. That type of thinking is akin to a very old Gnostic heresy.

So the God Man comes into being at the conception of Jesus and ceases to be at Jesus death. That seems straight forward to me.

[Outrider]

Not in the sense of being separate deities or gods or a pantheon.

Well that's sort of the oxymoron, isn't it. They consider them separate, but also want to consider them to be manifestations of the same thing. That's exactly the point - you're presumption here is that for some reason the 'unity' element takes precedence and (ignoring all the other divine beings in the pantheon) makes this a monotheistic religion, when they are equally separate and therefore it's a polytheistic religion without even needing to get into the precise nature of, say, angels.

O.

[Walt Zingmatilder]

Well that's sort of the oxymoron, isn't it. They consider them separate, but also want to consider them to be manifestations of the same thing. That's exactly the point - you're presumption here is that for some reason the 'unity' element takes precedence and (ignoring all the other divine beings in the pantheon) makes this a monotheistic religion, when they are equally separate and therefore it's a polytheistic religion without even needing to get into the precise nature of, say, angels.

O.

No there's the substantial nature of the trinity, all three persons are of the same divine substance. which is indivisible.

This model might also be true of monistic hindu theism, but not in the polytheisms.

[bluehillside Retd.]

Vlad,

I ''capiche'' that once again there is zero mention of Christ's humanity. Why are you trying to saddle Christianity with a Jesus it doesn't believe in anyway?

Are you not understanding the simple words I’m using or something? If you think there was a Jesus who was a hybrid human/god then for the part of that that was “god” either that part was immortal or it wasn’t. Which is it?

Maybe another way out would be for you claim a man/god, but also that the god part was only inhabiting the man part like a parasite, and was then able to magic its way out when the man part died. But then when would that be – on the cross? A few days later when he was walking around hale and hearty? Decades later when he passed away in his sleep in the Nazareth Bide a Wee While old folks’ home? Who can possibly say?     

…where's Christ's humanity?

It’s your myth remember?

Because that is the claim after which you somehow bang on about ''a'' deity which Merriam Webster describes as a ''Superhuman'' or ''spirit being''. WHERE'S THE LINKED HUMANITY in your description of Jesus?

See above.

I'm not running away Jesus was man and God. He was conceived, born, lived life and died like the rest of us.
You have a theory that seems to be akin that he was God and his humanity was a kind of holy hologram or optical illusion. That type of thinking is akin to a very old Gnostic heresy.

No, I’m trying to make sense of your incoherence. I see only two ways out of it:

1. Redefine the god part so as to be a mortal god; or

2. Have the god part inhabit the human part like the creature in Alien, then jump ship when the human part died. Or after the human part died and then stopped being dead. Or something…     

So the God Man comes into being at the conception of Jesus and ceases to be at Jesus death. That seems straight forward to me

But only if you opt for either option 1 or option 2 you above.

Oh, and as you’ve just ignored it again: what's the latest re sorting out your timeline re people being here before or after the crucifixion of Jesus by the way - do you need even more time to get your story straight?   

[bluehillside Retd.]

Vlad,

...which is indivisible.

Perhaps the problem here is that you don't understand the meaning of the word indivisible? 

[Walt Zingmatilder]

Vlad,

Are you not understanding the simple words I’m using or something? If you think there was a Jesus who was a hybrid human/god then for the part of that that was “god” either that part was immortal or it wasn’t. Which is it?

That's difficult because hybrid is not an adequate word and he was both fully human and fully divine.

Jesus was born and died, Divinity doesn't die, but Jesus is not just divinity and he died.

Without humanity there can be no such God Man relationship so that started at Jesus conception and ceased at Jesus death.

And that is a perfectly straightforward account

[Walt Zingmatilder]

Vlad,

Perhaps the problem here is that you don't understand the meaning of the word indivisible?

Explain.

[Walt Zingmatilder]

Vlad,


Maybe another way out would be for you claim a man/god, but also that the god part was only inhabiting the man part like a parasite, and was then able to magic its way out when the man part died. But then when would that be – on the cross? A few days later when he was walking around hale and hearty? Decades later when he passed away in his sleep in the Nazareth Bide a Wee While old folks’ home? Who can possibly say?

Like a parasite, why not a symbiont? Ah I forgot, this is personal between you and God.   

It’s your myth remember?

See above.

No, I’m trying to make sense of your incoherence. I see only two ways out of it:

1. Redefine the god part so as to be a mortal god; or

2. Have the god part inhabit the human part like the creature in Alien, then jump ship when the human part died. Or after the human part died and then stopped being dead. Or something… [   

But only if you opt for either option 1 or option 2 you above.

Oh, and as you’ve just ignored it again: what's the latest re sorting out your timeline re people being here before or after the crucifixion of Jesus by the way - do you need even more time to get your story straight?   

Jesus is both fully human and divine. He lived and died. Jesus divinity ''slithering off'' alien like is your fantasy. The human part was fully human and only filled with the spirit in the sense that all humans can be filled with the spirit. Hint...It doesn't make you God.