Author Topic: Searching for GOD...  (Read 3736036 times)

ProfessorDavey

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #43475 on: December 14, 2021, 08:29:41 PM »
As laudable as that is Christians are now portrayed by some as bad people.
Wrong - some christians are now portrayed by some others as bad people. And that's as it should be once the reverence for christianity is stripped away so that people no longer think that simply by going to church you indicate that you are a good person regardless of other evidence. I don't think I've heard even the most ardent of the campaigning atheists claim that all christians are bad people.


Outrider

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #43476 on: December 14, 2021, 10:03:40 PM »
This is not to paint Christianity and religion as victims as the New atheists have just made a religion of themselves, Godless (but so is Buddhism), but with scriptures and saints and apostles.

You keep trying to pull this false equivalence bullshit, and I don't know who it is you think is buying it. The atheist community, such as it is, doesn't have a doctrine, it doesn't have 'saints', it's not a religion in any way that keeps a meaning to the word 'religion'.  What's telling is that you think it's a valid tactic to tacitly admit that there's a fundamental problem with religion as a concept, and that the best you can manage it to attempt to tar your opposition with the same foetid brush that you've been washing with.

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So not persecution , yet, but there is a certain casual antitheism in secular culture and let's face it  low level prejudice of which the prejudice is not aware, always forms part of the history of particular prejudice.

Prejudice is having a default position of being against something - discrimination is problematic prejudice, typically because it's baseless or unfounded, sometimes because it may have a basis but the consequences of it are excessive. Being prejudiced against religion isn't intrinsically problematic; it becomes problematic when the discernment is baseless - say, like the current situation in the US where Christianity (of a particular stripe) is not just acceptable it's becoming the basis for pseudo-theocratic regulatory framework whilst Islam of any kind is instinctively demonised - or when the effects are excessive. The current tendency to not automatically view religious points of view with the reverence of previous decades is not even a manifestation of prejudice, it's just a balancing of the scales, but an inherent scepticism about the validity of any claims made by or on behalf of a particular religious viewpoint or, worse, the idea of a 'religious' norm is entirely valid given the utter, utter baselessness of those institutions.

O.
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Alan Burns

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #43477 on: December 15, 2021, 10:44:50 AM »
Just came across the profound quote:

Faith and reason are the two wings on which the human spirit rises to the contemplation of the truth.
And God has placed in the human heart a desire to know the truth - in a word, to know Himself, so that by knowing and loving God, men and women may also come to the fullness of truth about themselves.


Pope John Paul II

The truth will set you free  - John 8:32
Truth is not an abstraction, but a person - Edith Stein
Free will, though it makes evil possible, is also the only thing that makes possible any love or goodness or joy worth having. - CS Lewis
Joy is the Gigantic Secret of Christians - GK Chesterton

BeRational

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #43478 on: December 15, 2021, 12:12:26 PM »
Just came across the profound quote:

Faith and reason are the two wings on which the human spirit rises to the contemplation of the truth.
And God has placed in the human heart a desire to know the truth - in a word, to know Himself, so that by knowing and loving God, men and women may also come to the fullness of truth about themselves.


Pope John Paul II

You should never use faith for anything.
I see gullible people, everywhere!

Nearly Sane

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #43479 on: December 15, 2021, 12:38:25 PM »
You should never use faith for anything.
Unless it's George Michael

https://youtu.be/6Cs3Pvmmv0E

Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #43480 on: December 15, 2021, 12:51:06 PM »
Wrong - some christians are now portrayed by some others as bad people.
I think you have factored out chief New Atheist influencer Sam Harris here who has had a lot to say about so called moerate christians enabling the extremities
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And that's as it should be once the reverence for christianity is stripped away
A quite violent metaphor [/quote] so that people no longer think that simply by going to church you indicate that you are a good person regardless of other evidence.[/quote] I don't quite recognise a time when bad people weren't recognised as such[/quote] I don't think I've heard even the most ardent of the campaigning atheists claim that all christians are bad people.
[/quote] See previous.

ProfessorDavey

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #43481 on: December 15, 2021, 12:54:31 PM »
Just came across the profound quote:

Faith and reason are the two wings on which the human spirit rises to the contemplation of the truth.
And God has placed in the human heart a desire to know the truth - in a word, to know Himself, so that by knowing and loving God, men and women may also come to the fullness of truth about themselves.


Pope John Paul II
Knowledge and reason are the two wings on which the human spirit rises to the contemplation of the truth.

There you go AB - fixed it for you. Basing thing on faith is terrifying as faith, by definition, is unevidenced as if you have evidence you don't need faith as you have knowledge.

Just for a moment try to demonstrate some empathic thinking, walk a mile in someone else shoes. Just imagine what nonsense, and indeed dangerous nonsense, this sounds to someone who does not believe that god even exists. If are aren't able to be empathic in that manner, try this - imaging if this statement came from a religious leader whose claimed god you don't believe exists and whose religious practices and moral beliefs who don' agree with.

Would you find that statement profound, or gullible and worrying.

Outrider

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #43482 on: December 15, 2021, 12:56:52 PM »
I think you have factored out chief New Atheist influencer Sam Harris here who has had a lot to say about so called moderate christians enabling the extremities

It doesn't make them bad people, it's highlighting that there are negative consequences to their choices.

Quote
A quite violent metaphor

Oh no, please don't strip away my undue reverence...if that's all the 'violence' that comes, the churches will have gotten away quite easily given their history.

O.
Universes are forever, not just for creation...

New Atheism - because, apparently, there's a use-by date on unanswered questions.

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Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #43483 on: December 15, 2021, 01:16:58 PM »
It doesn't make them bad people, it's highlighting that there are negative consequences to their choices.

Oh no, please don't strip away my undue reverence...if that's all the 'violence' that comes, the churches will have gotten away quite easily given their history.

O.
I have been on message boards like this for nigh on 20 years. At no point have I been conscious of receiving reverence.
Regarding  Church history and false equivalence with modern atheism. Some atheists embrace the comparison. The Atheist experience led by Matt Dillahunty happily answered the question why do christians contribute more to charity in the following way. 'Christianity, the commentator said had a far longer history than atheist charity'. You see the equation there and not only equation but a competitive
spirit also.

Of course the problem for what calls itself The Atheist Community of Austin is that Not only can atheism expect more charity but also more abuse of it's members by it's leadership and every other bit of the baggage of organised religion/atheism including violence.

Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #43484 on: December 15, 2021, 01:20:49 PM »
Vlad,

Does anyone do that in respect of “Christians” a whole, or just regarding the demonstrably “bad” ones? Believing things for bad reasons doesn’t imply that someone is “bad” you know.
Quote
I'm thinking Sam Harris here.

Have you any evidence at all that such people exist?

But not the faith part that religions require, which so your argument (or assertion rather) here fails. 

There’s nothing wrong with anti-theism,
What about anti-atheism?

Outrider

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #43485 on: December 15, 2021, 01:45:53 PM »
At no point have I been conscious of receiving reverence.

I shouldn't need to point this out, but at no point in that 20 years have you been religion - you've been, no doubt, a proponent. I'd also suggest that 'message boards like this' are not particularly representative of society at large.

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Regarding  Church history and false equivalence with modern atheism. Some atheists embrace the comparison.

Not that I've noticed, but I suppose it's possible.

Quote
The Atheist experience led by Matt Dillahunty happily answered the question why do christians contribute more to charity in the following way. 'Christianity, the commentator said had a far longer history than atheist charity'. You see the equation there and not only equation but a competitive spirit also.

So much wrong here... in the US (which Dillahunty was most likely commenting on, though I don't know that for certain) the figures are fairly clear that the religious give more, with the understanding that every donation to their churches automatically qualifies as 'charity' even if it's not for charitable works but say for maintenance and repairs, and notwithstanding the fact that the relatively affluent middle-classes who have the free capital to give to charity are more likely to be religious than their less well-off neighbours. In the rest of the developed world this is not the case, and we don't see the pattern replicated anywhere near as strongly.

All of which addresses to some degree the idea of whether you can be good with or without religion, but it doesn't speak to whether an organisation is 'religious' or not.

Quote
Of course the problem for what calls itself The Atheist Community of Austin is that Not only can atheism expect more charity but also more abuse of it's members by it's leadership and every other bit of the baggage of organised religion/atheism including violence.

Any social gathering has the potential for abuse of the social structure, and newer organisations arguably moreso than older ones. When you can come back and show an atheist social organisation with decades of misogynistic abuse like the Magdalen Laundries, or decades of institutional cover-ups like the Catholic Church paedophile problems, or the decades of homophobic campaigning like the Anglican community over the latter half of the twentieth century, or the centuries of misogyny in pretty much every Jewish, Christian, Hindu, Muslim and even Buddhist tradition in the world then maybe individual instance of problematic behaviour will start to put them on an equal footing, just as soon as you demonstrate how those people tie their atheism to their behaviour in the way the religions explicitly tied their tenets to their discrimination.

O.
[/quote]
Universes are forever, not just for creation...

New Atheism - because, apparently, there's a use-by date on unanswered questions.

Eminent Pedant, Interpreter of Heretical Writings, Unwarranted Harvester of Trite Nomenclature, Church of Debatable Saints

Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #43486 on: December 15, 2021, 02:29:13 PM »
I shouldn't need to point this out, but at no point in that 20 years have you been religion - you've been, no doubt, a proponent. I'd also suggest that 'message boards like this' are not particularly representative of society at large.

Not that I've noticed, but I suppose it's possible.

So much wrong here... in the US (which Dillahunty was most likely commenting on, though I don't know that for certain) the figures are fairly clear that the religious give more, with the understanding that every donation to their churches automatically qualifies as 'charity' even if it's not for charitable works but say for maintenance and repairs, and notwithstanding the fact that the relatively affluent middle-classes who have the free capital to give to charity are more likely to be religious than their less well-off neighbours. In the rest of the developed world this is not the case, and we don't see the pattern replicated anywhere near as strongly.

All of which addresses to some degree the idea of whether you can be good with or without religion, but it doesn't speak to whether an organisation is 'religious' or not.

Any social gathering has the potential for abuse of the social structure, and newer organisations arguably moreso than older ones. When you can come back and show an atheist social organisation with decades of misogynistic abuse like the Magdalen Laundries, or decades of institutional cover-ups like the Catholic Church paedophile problems, or the decades of homophobic campaigning like the Anglican community over the latter half of the twentieth century, or the centuries of misogyny in pretty much every Jewish, Christian, Hindu, Muslim and even Buddhist tradition in the world then maybe individual instance of problematic behaviour will start to put them on an equal footing, just as soon as you demonstrate how those people tie their atheism to their behaviour in the way the religions explicitly tied their tenets to their discrimination.

O.
I don't think any reading of the leading works of Harris, Dawkins, Hitchens or Pinker, or the statement that science or the knowledge of it makes one a better person by Krauss leads us to believe that atheism and behaviour are not linked. You've declared as much in the post i'm replying to.

bluehillside Retd.

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #43487 on: December 15, 2021, 03:04:48 PM »
Vlad,

Quote
I'm thinking Sam Harris here.

Leaving aside for now whether SH says any such thing either, perhaps then you shouldn’t have said “…Christians are now portrayed by some as bad people”. Some Christians may be “portrayed” as that (unarguably so given the appalling behaviours of some Christians) but not “Christians” collectively as you wrongly asserted. 

Quote
What about anti-atheism?

The conclusion that on the whole theism does more harm than good? What about it?
"Don't make me come down there."

God

ProfessorDavey

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #43488 on: December 15, 2021, 04:24:33 PM »
I think you have factored out chief New Atheist influencer Sam Harris here who has had a lot to say about so called moerate christians enabling the extremities
I've never read any of Sam Harris' stuff, so he clearly isn't an influencer of me.

So, given that I assume you have, can you provide me with details of where Harris has explicitly stated that all christians are bad. Links please, not just hand waving assertions.

ProfessorDavey

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #43489 on: December 15, 2021, 04:29:45 PM »
See previous.
Nope - you haven't demonstrated that at all.

Please give me some examples where an atheist has explicitly stated that all christians are bad people. Not wrong, not misguided, not unintentionally giving legitimacy to bad people, but specifically bad themselves.

Perhaps there are examples, in which case I'm sure you will provide them Vlad. But I'm not aware of any such statement, and it certainly isn't something either I, or I suspect any of the other atheists on this MB, think.

Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #43490 on: December 15, 2021, 04:54:57 PM »
Nope - you haven't demonstrated that at all.

Please give me some examples where an atheist has explicitly stated that all christians are bad people. Not wrong, not misguided, not unintentionally giving legitimacy to bad people, but specifically bad themselves.

Perhaps there are examples, in which case I'm sure you will provide them Vlad. But I'm not aware of any such statement, and it certainly isn't something either I, or I suspect any of the other atheists on this MB, think.

https://www.samharris.org/blog/the-virus-of-religious-moderation

bluehillside Retd.

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #43491 on: December 15, 2021, 05:02:28 PM »
Vlad,

Quote
https://www.samharris.org/blog/the-virus-of-religious-moderation

In which at no point does he say (or even suggest) that "Christians" collectively are bad people, which was your assertion ("...Christians are now portrayed by some as bad people").

Do you have anything else that might justify your claim?
« Last Edit: December 15, 2021, 05:04:53 PM by bluehillside Retd. »
"Don't make me come down there."

God

ProfessorDavey

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #43492 on: December 15, 2021, 06:21:21 PM »
https://www.samharris.org/blog/the-virus-of-religious-moderation
Crikey - an article from 16 years ago.

Oh and exactly where in this article does Sam Harris explicitly state that all christians are bad people. Not wrong, not misguided, not unintentionally giving legitimacy to bad people, but specifically bad themselves. That's what I asked you to demonstrate. Problem for you Vlad, is that he doesn't - indeed he doesn't even come close.

jeremyp

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #43493 on: December 15, 2021, 06:58:44 PM »
Just came across the profound quote:

Faith and reason are the two wings on which the human spirit rises to the contemplation of the truth.
And God has placed in the human heart a desire to know the truth - in a word, to know Himself, so that by knowing and loving God, men and women may also come to the fullness of truth about themselves.


Pope John Paul II

One of the wings is incapable of producing any lift (hint: it's not the reason one).
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jeremyp

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #43494 on: December 15, 2021, 07:11:51 PM »
Crikey - an article from 16 years ago.
To be fair, you didn't specify any time limits when you issued the challenge. Having read it, I think it stands up quite well today.

From Vlad's point of view, there's only one small issue and that is...

Quote
Oh and exactly where in this article does Sam Harris explicitly state that all christians are bad people. Not wrong, not misguided, not unintentionally giving legitimacy to bad people, but specifically bad themselves. That's what I asked you to demonstrate. Problem for you Vlad, is that he doesn't - indeed he doesn't even come close.

... oh, I see you already spotted it.
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ProfessorDavey

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #43495 on: December 15, 2021, 07:12:36 PM »
Vlad,

In which at no point does he say (or even suggest) that "Christians" collectively are bad people, which was your assertion ("...Christians are now portrayed by some as bad people").

Do you have anything else that might justify your claim?
And meanwhile back in the real world, rather than Vlad's fantasy world for comparison we have someone who was the leader of one of the two largest christian denominations in the UK, describing all atheists not just as being bad (I could probably accept that) but as not being fully human.

Yup you read that right Vlad - the person who at the time was the leader of the UK RCC is on record as saying that atheists aren't fully human.

ProfessorDavey

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #43496 on: December 15, 2021, 07:18:37 PM »
To be fair, you didn't specify any time limits when you issued the challenge. Having read it, I think it stands up quite well today.
Yup you are right, I didn't specify a time, but one might expect that he might have picked a current comment. And also agreed the sentiment remains valid and is one I've used not just for religious apologists but apologists of all sorts. It is a pretty well established opinion that those that hold moderate views but don't call out those within their 'tribe' who hold extreme views provide a legitimacy to those extreme views, even if they don't support those views themselves.

From Vlad's point of view, there's only one small issue and that is...

... oh, I see you already spotted it.
Yup - Harris never states that all christians are bad people.

But Cardinal Murphy O'Connor is on the record as stating that atheists aren't fully human. I'm never got to the bottom of what species he thinks we belong to, and how (given the definition of species) it is possible for an atheist and a theist to have children. He is literally dehumanising a group of people on the basis of their lack of belief in god.
« Last Edit: December 15, 2021, 07:20:50 PM by ProfessorDavey »

The Accountant, OBE, KC

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #43497 on: December 15, 2021, 09:17:09 PM »
To be fair, you didn't specify any time limits when you issued the challenge. Having read it, I think it stands up quite well today.
Hmm I don't think it stands up. For a start Sam Harris' simplistic assertions are not backed by any evidence. This line "religious moderation is the product of secular knowledge and scriptural ignorance" shows he has little direct experience of moderates, He also has not presented any evidence that he has any knowledge to accurately judge who is scripturally ignorant and who isn't.

This line "As moderates, we cannot say that religious fundamentalists are dangerous idiots, because they are merely practising their freedom of belief. We can’t even say that they are mistaken in religious terms, because their knowledge of scripture is generally unrivalled.". Not sure who Sam Harris classifies as fundamentalists as his article is short on detail - or why he thinks their knowledge of scripture is generally unrivalled - the article just seems full of vague, hand-waving assertions.

As this article points out https://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/mehdi-hasan/jihadist-radicalisation-islam-for-dummies_b_5697160.html In 2008, a classified briefing note on radicalisation, prepared by MI5's behavioural science unit, was leaked to the Guardian. It revealed that, "far from being religious zealots, a large number of those involved in terrorism do not practise their faith regularly. Many lack religious literacy and could . . . be regarded as religious novices." The analysts concluded that "a well-established religious identity actually protects against violent radicalisation", the newspaper said.

Perhaps Sam Harris and other like-minded atheists could try stepping out of their echo chambers and do a little reading to educate themselves. Or not...I suppose these atheists could choose to continue clinging onto their self-congratulatory beliefs like their simplistic religious counterparts.

https://www.weforum.org/agenda/2017/07/terrorist-extremists-dont-kill-for-islam-or-christianity

I identify as a Sword because I have abstract social constructs e.g. honour and patriotism. My preferred pronouns are "kill/ maim/ dismember"

Quite handy with weapons - available for hire to defeat money laundering crooks around the world.

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Outrider

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #43498 on: December 15, 2021, 10:23:37 PM »
I don't think any reading of the leading works of Harris, Dawkins, Hitchens or Pinker, or the statement that science or the knowledge of it makes one a better person by Krauss leads us to believe that atheism and behaviour are not linked.

I think you might need to read them again. Accepting scientific explanations doesn't automatically make you a better person, accepting religious explanations doesn't automatically make you a worse person; there are, however, trends there, although it's probably too complex to say if either element of the correlation is causative of the other.

Quote
You've declared as much in the post i'm replying to.

Again, you need to read it again.

O.
Universes are forever, not just for creation...

New Atheism - because, apparently, there's a use-by date on unanswered questions.

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Alan Burns

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #43499 on: December 16, 2021, 08:07:18 AM »
Knowledge and reason are the two wings on which the human spirit rises to the contemplation of the truth.

There you go AB - fixed it for you. Basing thing on faith is terrifying as faith, by definition, is unevidenced as if you have evidence you don't need faith as you have knowledge.

Just for a moment try to demonstrate some empathic thinking, walk a mile in someone else shoes. Just imagine what nonsense, and indeed dangerous nonsense, this sounds to someone who does not believe that god even exists. If are aren't able to be empathic in that manner, try this - imaging if this statement came from a religious leader whose claimed god you don't believe exists and whose religious practices and moral beliefs who don' agree with.

Would you find that statement profound, or gullible and worrying.
Yes, I fully agree that knowledge will lead us to the truth.
It is my knowledge of science and the laws governing particle physics which leads me to the conclusion that my abilities to believe, to contemplate and to reason are entirely incompatible with the fall out from a material entity whose every moment is entirely defined by unavoidable reactions to previous moments.
The truth will set you free  - John 8:32
Truth is not an abstraction, but a person - Edith Stein
Free will, though it makes evil possible, is also the only thing that makes possible any love or goodness or joy worth having. - CS Lewis
Joy is the Gigantic Secret of Christians - GK Chesterton